New user, came to vent.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

That does not mean that their decision to degender souls and therefore fundamentally alter the underlying lore of the novels as established by Robert Jordan did not provide them with the ability to make the choice of changing the Dragon's identity,

I mean we’re in Schroedinger’s script territory here. Who cares? What impact has this change had on the core of the story?

[expat]

1 hour ago, fearbrog said:

But it's not unimportant detail. Isn't major theme of series is Rand can't and shouldn't do everything himself. People argued reason he needs to be kneeled and saved by everyone else in s2 is reflection of that theme and reminder not to abandon his friends. And yet Egwene can do everything herself, she doesn't need to be saved from impossible trap, nothing can't handle her. Two protagonists are learning completely different lessons. Overall context is Rand useless without others, Egwene perfectly fine without others.

 

WTF man.  I was addressing a specific scene you asked me about.  So without discussing the points I tried to raise, you jumped to another scene you didn't like.  

 

To make it easier, the point I raised was that there are two ways to view the series, one from a more holistic viewpoint where the overriding concepts are more important than the exact actions taken to get there and the second to value the actions as discrete points in their own right.  Neither is objectively correct and is based on individual interpretations of what an adaptation should be.  Based on the discussion, it seems I am more interested in the big picture and willing to give the showrunners the benefit of the doubt on the small details and you are the opposite.  You are more interested in the small details and really want to see them on screen.  

 

Given the difficulties of the adaptation, you will likely be continually disappointed.

[DigificWriter]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I mean we’re in Schroedinger’s script territory here. Who cares? What impact has this change had on the core of the story?

 

The first thing it did is that it directly shaped the way that the early episodes of Season 1 were written with regards to Moiraine's search for the Dragon Reborn and Egwene, Perrin, Mat, and Nynaeve's individual stories played themselves out.

.

Second, it allowed them to add depth to Egwene's character by including the detail about her love for the Travels of Jain Farstrider being rooted in and influenced by a belief on her part that she was Jain Farstrider reincarnated.

 

Third, it provided them with the ability to have both male and female figures represent Logain's madness and reinforce his belief that he was the Dragon Reborn and that he was hearing the voices of his previous lives.

 

Fourth, it gave them an avenue by which they could adapt to Barney Harris' departure and the ripple effect that it created by making it impossible for Mat's storyline to remain as it was in the books by having him experience hallucinations/visions that could be described as being related to his past lives and include both male and female characters.

[Elder_Haman]

37 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

The first thing it did is that it directly shaped the way that the early episodes of Season 1 were written with regards to Moiraine's search for the Dragon Reborn and Egwene, Perrin, Mat, and Nynaeve's individual stories played themselves out.

.

Second, it allowed them to add depth to Egwene's character by including the detail about her love for the Travels of Jain Farstrider being rooted in and influenced by a belief on her part that she was Jain Farstrider reincarnated.

 

Third, it provided them with the ability to have both male and female figures represent Logain's madness and reinforce his belief that he was the Dragon Reborn and that he was hearing the voices of his previous lives.

 

Fourth, it gave them an avenue by which they could adapt to Barney Harris' departure and the ripple effect that it created by making it impossible for Mat's storyline to remain as it was in the books by having him experience hallucinations/visions that could be described as being related to his past lives and include both male and female characters.

You’re reaching. None of those things are important. They’re flavor. 

[DojoToad]

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

We do. It gives them plot armor and plays into fantasy tropes. It’s far better writing to play into the which way will he go, save the world or destroy it aspect of the Dragon. It allows you to build tension between Rand and his friends and his friends between one another - something Rand often plays to his advantage throughout the books. 

 

How do we know which way he will go when he isn't getting the screen time?  Framing the protagonist through the eyes of other characters works for a couple chapters/episodes, but I'd think you'd want it from the horse's mouth at some point.

 

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

He’s had some cool moments. He will get more. Keeping him nerfed for a bit also helps with power creep. 

 

But not nerfing Nynaeve and Egwene accomplishes what?

 

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

Yes. In service of better storytelling in a visual medium. 

I can understand the protagonist not being the focus for an episode or three, but for two entire seasons?  Unless the Dragon is not the protagonist and is just another tool for Moiraine (the true protagonist) to use...  If Rand is the protagonist (and not 'just' the Dragon) it's a pretty risky move to wait until S3 for him to get his season.  Especially with the drop off in viewership between S1 and S2 - according to our AI Overlords.  😁

 

Edited Wednesday at 12:29 PM by DojoToad

[DojoToad]

10 hours ago, expat said:

WTF man.  I was addressing a specific scene you asked me about.  So without discussing the points I tried to raise, you jumped to another scene you didn't like.  

 

To make it easier, the point I raised was that there are two ways to view the series, one from a more holistic viewpoint where the overriding concepts are more important than the exact actions taken to get there and the second to value the actions as discrete points in their own right.  Neither is objectively correct and is based on individual interpretations of what an adaptation should be.  Based on the discussion, it seems I am more interested in the big picture and willing to give the showrunners the benefit of the doubt on the small details and you are the opposite.  You are more interested in the small details and really want to see them on screen.  

 

Given the difficulties of the adaptation, you will likely be continually disappointed.

True that.  There will be many small details missed.  The 14-book series was long and rich (and often repetitive).  There is no way everyone's favorite details are making it to the screen no matter how many episodes and seasons they get.  Adaptations are tough, and people have different scenes they consider important or their favorite.

 

Rafe is a professional in the entertainment industry and I assume he wants to continue down that path.  If that is the case, he is doing the best job he can.  I think he is making many mistakes, but I'm only an entertainment consumer.  Someone else might have been more capable and made a better show from my perspective, but Rafe is who we have and his vision (influenced by execs) is the product. S3 is soon...

[Elder_Haman]

4 hours ago, DojoToad said:

 

How do we know which way he will go when he isn't getting the screen time?  Framing the protagonist through the eyes of other characters works for a couple chapters/episodes, but I'd think you'd want it from the horse's mouth at some point.

 

 

But not nerfing Nynaeve and Egwene accomplishes what?

 

I can understand the protagonist not being the focus for an episode or three, but for two entire seasons?  Unless the Dragon is not the protagonist and is just another tool for Moiraine (the true protagonist) to use...  If Rand is the protagonist (and not 'just' the Dragon) it's a pretty risky move to wait until S3 for him to get his season.  Especially with the drop off in viewership between S1 and S2 - according to our AI Overlords.  😁

 

All of these are good points and I don’t necessarily disagree with any of them. It’s one of the reasons I think the “Who is the Dragon” plot was such a bad idea. 
 

But nonetheless, there is some merit in trying to make the show from the POVs of those around Rand rather than Rand himself. The execution has been … uneven. 
 

I think Nyn needed her huge moment as a vehicle for showing both her strength and the consequences of her block. But again, I think it was poorly executed. 
 

Eggy and Rand seem to be on similar growth paths. Both earned good moments at the end. 

[driftnet]

7 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Especially with the drop off in viewership between S1 and S2 - according to our AI Overlords.  😁

 

"AI" knows English words and the order in which they are likely to appear. That's it. I don't care about the show one way or another, and this may be correct. But you can get completely confident and 100% wrong answers from AI all day long. It's not even interesting as a curiosity.

[fearbrog]

15 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Eggy and Rand seem to be on similar growth paths. Both earned good moments at the end. 

Egwene was siphoned so much Power  that everyone around her dies to defeat countless trollocs and still managed to perform the biggest healing miracle, bigger than anything in books. Rand got tricked by Ishy. S1 ends with Egwene's triumph and Rand's failure.

In s2 she breaks from impossible situation and goes toe to toe with Ishy. Rand also got caught in impossible situation, twice, and both times he couldn't do anything and was saved by forsaken and Moiraine and Egg. He didn't even fight Ishy, that stabbing was most anticlimactic moment i saw in long time.

How you can say they on similar growth path if Egwene uplifted from book and have more Power and better control, while Rand got downgraded and denied to do anything he did in books?

Edited Thursday at 09:05 AM by fearbrog

[DojoToad]

16 hours ago, driftnet said:

"AI" knows English words and the order in which they are likely to appear. That's it. I don't care about the show one way or another, and this may be correct. But you can get completely confident and 100% wrong answers from AI all day long. It's not even interesting as a curiosity.

Not interesting to you.  I find it fascinating: is it right, wrong, irrelevant?  Just like coming here and reading comments/opinions/insights from fellow Dragonmounters.  Someday it might not be as exciting, but for me it's still new, shiny, and interesting.

[driftnet]

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Not interesting to you.

Fair enough. Maybe I'm just sick of working with it. 🤣

[Skipp]

6 hours ago, fearbrog said:

Egwene was siphoned so much Power  that everyone around her dies to defeat countless trollocs and still managed to perform the biggest healing miracle, bigger than anything in books. Rand got tricked by Ishy. S1 ends with Egwene's triumph and Rand's failure.

In s2 she breaks from impossible situation and goes toe to toe with Ishy. Rand also got caught in impossible situation, twice, and both times he couldn't do anything and was saved by forsaken and Moiraine and Egg. He didn't even fight Ishy, that stabbing was most anticlimactic moment i saw in long time.

How you can say they on similar growth path if Egwene uplifted from book and have more Power and better control, while Rand got downgraded and denied to do anything he did in books?

 

Egwene's healing of Nynaeve has been talked about to death.  The show made major mistakes visualizing that scene to the audience in part due to covid.

 

As for Egwene's triumph she and Nynaeve were batteries for a poorly trained Accepted(Noivce?).  Whether or not you liked it Rand turning down Ishamael's offer and his rescue of Moiraine was a triumph.  While the victory did not end as expected it was a short term win.

 

Egwene vs Ishy in Falme.  She did not go toe to toe with him.  She held a failing defensive posture for a surprising amount of time but that is training for you.  She did not once find time to strike out and she was about to lose until Perrin joined her.

 

Agreed on Rand stabbing Ishamael as anticlimatic.  While it was satisfying to see Rand get branded on the palm the moment did not seem to have the impact I was expecting.

 

I personally loved seeing Egwene handle Renna on her own as it was immensely satisfying.  I wouldn't have minded seeing Nynaeve and Elayne saving her.  But this is mitigated by having Nynaeve's arc being that she needs training, that she can't rely on her own ability or just ignore it.

 

Also Rand broke a cuendillar seal on his own without training,  you want to talk about power?  He also got to merc Lord Turak and his retinue. I know book fans were hoping for the duel but all of my friends absolutely loved that moment.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

 

Also Rand broke a cuendillar seal on his own without training,  you want to talk about power?  He also got to merc Lord Turak and his retinue. I know book fans were hoping for the duel but all of my friends absolutely loved that moment.

Sorry, I'm ignorant on this point.  Are the seals failing in the show like in the books?  In the book, they could be easily be broken without the power.

[Skipp]

12 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Sorry, I'm ignorant on this point.  Are the seals failing in the show like in the books?  In the book, they could be easily be broken without the power.

 

Difficult to fully say.  In the books Rand breaks the first seal when using the Eye of the world. After it is broken it is just as hard as regular cuendillar as Lan breaks his best knife by trying to scratch it.  It isn't until much later that the seals become brittle to the touch.  Around the time that Nynaeve and Egwene reach Salidar.

 

In the show Rand breaks the seal using an Angreal/Sa'angreal.  Afterwards Moiraine identifies it as cuendillar.  In season 2 we see Ishamael breaking Lanfears seal using a specific weave and then at the end of the season we see him dusting off his hands after breaking the remaining ones.

 

Moiraine says at the end of season one that cuendillar is suppose to be indestructible. Bayle Domon attempts to sell Moiraine a piece of cuendillar from Lanfears seal and believes it to be worth a lot so we can assume that cuendillar is still a valuable substance.

 

I am not sure if it is mentioned in the books but my head canon is that once Rand broke the first seal it allowed the dark one to start corrupting the remaining seals.  I choose to believe this same thing is happening in the show.  Rand needed an Angreal/Sa'angreal to break the first.  Ishy needed to weave to break the 2nd and by the end of the season he was able to break the rest by hand.

[A Memory Of Why]

18 hours ago, fearbrog said:

Egwene was siphoned so much Power  that everyone around her dies to defeat countless trollocs and still managed to perform the biggest healing miracle, bigger than anything in books.

 

Yeah na, IMO this healing miracle error goes to Elayne healing Rands dagger wound, with Nyn right there mind you.

 

On top of Nyn being able to "read" the Adam Ter'angreal, again with Elayne right there.

 

For season 2, this right up there for what most of all vexes me.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 hour ago, A Memory Of Why said:

On top of Nyn being able to "read" the Adam Ter'angreal, again with Elayne right there.

Nyn was the one who got impressions from objects in the books  (e.g. the male adam equivalent in Tanchio), although Aviendha was able to read the purpose of the ter'angreal from the Ebou Dar horde.

 

[A Memory Of Why]

5 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Nyn was the one who got impressions from objects in the books  (e.g. the male adam equivalent in Tanchio), although Aviendha was able to read the purpose of the ter'angreal from the Ebou Dar horde.

 

As I said "read", and from my understanding the Adams have an adverse affect for channellers of the opposite gender.

 

E.g. male adam = bad touch for female channelers and vice versa.

[DigificWriter]

Somebody above was once again complaining about Egwene healing Nynaeve in The Eye of the World (my favorite episode of Season 1), and, after just finishing a rewatch of that episode, all I have to say is this: people really do need to chill out when it comes to the 'correctness' or 'incorrectness' of how the show uses the One Power, because in the end, the point of that scene is to show off Egwene's strength in the Power and deepen her relationship with Nynaeve. Being hyperfocused on whether or not Nynaeve was dead and taking the stance that the One Power couldn't have brought her back to life if she was is completely missing the point.

 

People don't have to like that scene, but there's a difference between disliking something and lodging pedantic objections against said thing simply for the sake of having something to comment on.

 

The same also applies to Egwene saving herself from Renna; pedantic objections to that plot point based on whether or not the A'dam should've worked the way in which it's used in the scenes in question are entirely missing the point.

[DojoToad]

On 12/19/2024 at 10:50 AM, Skipp said:

 

Also Rand broke a cuendillar seal on his own without training,  you want to talk about power?  He also got to merc Lord Turak and his retinue. I know book fans were hoping for the duel but all of my friends absolutely loved that moment.

Looked that scene up on youtube.  I like it, an awesome display of the Power by Rand.  Everyone looking tough and posing - and then splat.

 

Plus they were able to avoid a badly choreographed fight scene.  Duel would have been nice for sure though.

[Samt]

43 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Looked that scene up on youtube.  I like it, an awesome display of the Power by Rand.  Everyone looking tough and posing - and then splat.

 

Plus they were able to avoid a badly choreographed fight scene.  Duel would have been nice for sure though.

The scene is fun.  The problem I have is that it effectively means that sword Rand never happens.  Obviously, you can still have him learn the sword.  But a big part of Rand learning the sword was that he couldn't count on using the one power and needed to defend himself.  It's humanizing.  But if he can mass power word kill way more people than he could ever hope to fight with a sword, there just isn't a good justification for learning to use a sword.  Thus, in the show Rand is always the fraud carrying the blademaster's sword and never the blademaster.  

[Kaleb]

51 minutes ago, Samt said:

Thus, in the show Rand is always the fraud carrying the blademaster's sword and never the blademaster.  

Not always. Probably that changes this season, we have the clip of Rand training with Lan from the teaser and we know from TSR that he spent a lot of time practicing martial arts with the Aiel as well as the blade with Lan. Reasonable to expect more development of this theme in S3, but of course we WAFO.

[Samt]

3 minutes ago, Kaleb said:

Not always. Probably that changes this season, we have the clip of Rand training with Lan from the teaser and we know from TSR that he spent a lot of time practicing martial arts with the Aiel as well as the blade with Lan. Reasonable to expect more development of this theme in S3, but of course we WAFO.

I've heard that.  My point is that it no longer makes sense.  Order matters.  For Rand to now learn to sword fight is like deciding to perfect crawling when he has already proven he is the faster runner in the world.  

[Kaleb]

9 minutes ago, Samt said:

I've heard that.  My point is that it no longer makes sense.  Order matters.  For Rand to now learn to sword fight is like deciding to perfect crawling when he has already proven he is the faster runner in the world.  

He still has the taint on saidin to fight through, that will be reason enough to master the blade. It was a big part of his motivation in the books.

[expat]

8 hours ago, Samt said:

The scene is fun.  The problem I have is that it effectively means that sword Rand never happens.  Obviously, you can still have him learn the sword.  But a big part of Rand learning the sword was that he couldn't count on using the one power and needed to defend himself.  It's humanizing.  But if he can mass power word kill way more people than he could ever hope to fight with a sword, there just isn't a good justification for learning to use a sword.  Thus, in the show Rand is always the fraud carrying the blademaster's sword and never the blademaster.  

I disagree with your assessment of the reasons for Rand training with the sword.  I always believed that the sword training was the physical embodiment of the "am I Tam's son or the Dragon" subplot.  The sword was an extension of his relationship with Tam (even when the original blade was destroyed). 

 

Given that that particular thread was unfilmable because it couldn't be made visual, emphasis on the sword training wasn't a driving factor.  Other reasons, like mental discipline or tactics training mean that it might be useful to introduce, but it should never be a major plot point like in the book.

 

The books always made the case that he could kill far more opponents much easier with the power.  Don't you remember the several references in the books to people asking him why he was so fixated on the sword when he had the power.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

17 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

As I said "read", and from my understanding the Adams have an adverse affect for channellers of the opposite gender.

 

E.g. male adam = bad touch for female channelers and vice versa.

My point is that letting Nyn read it when Elayne is right there is not a relevant point as Elayne had no particular ability in the books to know what a ter'Angreal does - only an interest (and perhaps a talent) in learning how to make ter'anreal - it was Aviendha who found she had the talent to know what an existing ter'angreal does (and much later).  

 

Nyn got the sense of suffering when touching the male adam,  in general if a male who can channel touches an active adam he and those wearing it suffer great pain, if the bracelet is put on a male who can channel while a woman who can channel is wearing the collar then both die from it.   The male adam was designed to allow one or two females who can channel to control a male who can channel, there is no general adverse effect from females touching it, only Nyn got the impression of suffering.