New user, came to vent.

[RitualM]

Hello, new to the forums. Read the series twice. Love it. Browsed the forums a handful of times foe info on stuff.

 

 I am just so upset and almost insulted by how poor the show is I need to vent so a place where people might understand.

 

The way they ruined so many good characters just hurts me. I have no problem with adaptation and changes no show can be exact to a series and truthfully it rarely should be. They are different mediums and require different approaches.

 

This being said, their writing of Lan, Mat, and even Nyneve to a point is infuriating.

Mat is just.... awful, where is our playful trickster with insane luck?

Instead we get a cowardly kid who has none of the traits of Mat. 

Also Ta'veren being not spoken of is a huge mistake to me. 

Lan went for hard, badass cold swordsman to all the feelings sad puppy pining over his lost relationship to Moraine after her stilling. Like wtf...

 

Nyneve instead of strong willed and bull headed seems just petulant and perpetually stressed out.

 

Thom? Gone. Elayne? Her introduction was so awful.... 

 

I hate so many things they have done in this show. 

They take major plot points and just ignore them. 0 context for the seanchan. Hardly a whisper of what Artur Hawkwing was even in the conversation about the genesis of the 3 oaths. So much is glossed over in a throwaway line only to be noticed by a reader.

 

At this point I'm watching it just to see how much worse it can get

 

My only positive comment so far is that the actor who plays Logain is amazing. I want him to be the whole show at this point.

[Scarloc99]

Hi good to see you, there are several posts here about the show and a few people who share your opinions, but the majority of us think the show is good, we understand the reasons behind many of the artistic decisions taken and while we may disagree with some overall this is the story told in the WOT 

3 posts probably worth reading fully and then commenting on are rather then starting another one. But I will say if your expectation is a forum full of hate for the show you are in the wrong place, there are some who will agree with you to a point, but many, like me, love the show I myself have read the series end to end about 15 times and I absolutely love what they have done to tell the story, and think many of the changes have enhanced the weaker elements of the books. You also need to consider that in book 2, which is where we are, Nymaeve was petulant, Matt was under the effects of the dagger and was a bit like this Matt, Lan, some feel like you, but others of us love this change to the character as it actually gives him an arc instead of just being the Aragorn rip off you see in the start of the books, this is the Lan that RJ tried to turn Lan into later on. 

But read the posts below and feel free to comment on any points you disagree with, there is a lot of back and forth about the points you have made.  

 

 

[WheelofJuke]

On 9/24/2023 at 7:08 PM, RitualM said:

Hello, new to the forums. Read the series twice. Love it. Browsed the forums a handful of times foe info on stuff.

 

 I am just so upset and almost insulted by how poor the show is I need to vent so a place where people might understand.

 

The way they ruined so many good characters just hurts me. I have no problem with adaptation and changes no show can be exact to a series and truthfully it rarely should be. They are different mediums and require different approaches.

 

This being said, their writing of Lan, Mat, and even Nyneve to a point is infuriating.

Mat is just.... awful, where is our playful trickster with insane luck?

Instead we get a cowardly kid who has none of the traits of Mat. 

Also Ta'veren being not spoken of is a huge mistake to me. 

Lan went for hard, badass cold swordsman to all the feelings sad puppy pining over his lost relationship to Moraine after her stilling. Like wtf...

 

Nyneve instead of strong willed and bull headed seems just petulant and perpetually stressed out.

 

Thom? Gone. Elayne? Her introduction was so awful.... 

 

I hate so many things they have done in this show. 

They take major plot points and just ignore them. 0 context for the seanchan. Hardly a whisper of what Artur Hawkwing was even in the conversation about the genesis of the 3 oaths. So much is glossed over in a throwaway line only to be noticed by a reader.

 

At this point I'm watching it just to see how much worse it can get

 

My only positive comment so far is that the actor who plays Logain is amazing. I want him to be the whole show at this point.

This very much sums up where I stand on the matter; however, I decided not to give S2 a go...I literally pulled it up the night of release, looked at it paused and ready to go for like 10 minutes just staring...and then said, nah I got too much other stuff going for me right now. 😛😄

 

[IttyBittyOne]

RitualM I feel your pain. I ... painfully ... watched the first season YELLING at every episode "it didn't happen like that!" or "that wasn't in the book" or "why that bizarre change??" Did the writers even read the books? Maybe they googled a character list and scanned some fan wikis to get some details... then chucked that out just because. I imagine it's difficult to turn a very detailed book into 8 hour-long episodes and pages of exposition into a script so a lot has to be cut, combined or condensed, but why CHANGED into something completely different?

 

Poor Mat Cauthon and his parents get the worst of it. Our beloved charming rascal is changed into a klepto, psychopathic despicable ***hole  in Season 1. And his parents? Oof, not even gonna open that can of gross slimy worms. And, why did Thom Merrilin look like Rooster Cogburn from True Grit? I could go on for paragraphs but I'll just vent to the hubby, he's getting used to it ... again ... now that season 2 is out.

 

I'm so surprised we are in the minority.

 

I am watching season 2 with the mindset that the only thing they took from the books are the names of people/places/things. Season 2 is supposed to be based on "The Great Hunt" ... I think? They chucked out the book's plot and groupings. Still, I recognized a few things. Guess their wiki surfing turned up a few relevant details. In the words of Monty Python "and now for something completely different!"

[WheelofJuke]

I mean, you have the option to NOT watch, too. 🙂

If it's offensive, don't subject yourself to it. Respect yourself as a viewer. 

Just cuz amazon serves some slop up on a platter doesn't mean we need to consume it. 😉

[Mirefox]

16 hours ago, IttyBittyOne said:

RitualM I feel your pain. I ... painfully ... watched the first season YELLING at every episode "it didn't happen like that!" or "that wasn't in the book" or "why that bizarre change??" Did the writers even read the books? Maybe they googled a character list and scanned some fan wikis to get some details... then chucked that out just because. I imagine it's difficult to turn a very detailed book into 8 hour-long episodes and pages of exposition into a script so a lot has to be cut, combined or condensed, but why CHANGED into something completely different?

 

Poor Mat Cauthon and his parents get the worst of it. Our beloved charming rascal is changed into a klepto, psychopathic despicable ***hole  in Season 1. And his parents? Oof, not even gonna open that can of gross slimy worms. And, why did Thom Merrilin look like Rooster Cogburn from True Grit? I could go on for paragraphs but I'll just vent to the hubby, he's getting used to it ... again ... now that season 2 is out.

 

I'm so surprised we are in the minority.

 

I am watching season 2 with the mindset that the only thing they took from the books are the names of people/places/things. Season 2 is supposed to be based on "The Great Hunt" ... I think? They chucked out the book's plot and groupings. Still, I recognized a few things. Guess their wiki surfing turned up a few relevant details. In the words of Monty Python "and now for something completely different!"

You're the minority on a site where a couple dozen people at most post regularly.  Many disappeared after season 1.  But trust me, you aren't the minority across fandom.  The outrage is far more vocal than the support outside of highly-moderated sites.

[Elder_Haman]

44 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

The outrage is far more vocal than the support outside of highly-moderated sites.

Imma need a citation.

I'd wager that if you had the data, it would result in basically a bell curve. A few people who REALLY love it, a few people who REALLY hate it. And the vast majority somewhere in the middle.

[DigificWriter]

7 hours ago, Mirefox said:

you aren't the minority across fandom. 

 

The Patreon support and Livestream chats for YouTube channels like The Dusty Wheel, KritterXD, LezbiNerdy, Malkier Talks, Road to Tar Valon, The Amrylin's Study, Reading the Pattern, Unraveling the Pattern, WotUp, and even Dragonmount.Com itself, as well as the subscription numbers for the podcast feeds for RtTV, Dragonmount, Shade of My Heart, and others unequivocally prove this assessment wrong.

Edited September 29, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Goathill]

On 9/24/2023 at 7:08 PM, RitualM said:

Hello, new to the forums. Read the series twice. Love it. Browsed the forums a handful of times foe info on stuff.

 

 I am just so upset and almost insulted by how poor the show is I need to vent so a place where people might understand.

 

The way they ruined so many good characters just hurts me. I have no problem with adaptation and changes no show can be exact to a series and truthfully it rarely should be. They are different mediums and require different approaches.

 

This being said, their writing of Lan, Mat, and even Nyneve to a point is infuriating.

Mat is just.... awful, where is our playful trickster with insane luck?

Instead we get a cowardly kid who has none of the traits of Mat. 

Also Ta'veren being not spoken of is a huge mistake to me. 

Lan went for hard, badass cold swordsman to all the feelings sad puppy pining over his lost relationship to Moraine after her stilling. Like wtf...

 

Nyneve instead of strong willed and bull headed seems just petulant and perpetually stressed out.

 

Thom? Gone. Elayne? Her introduction was so awful.... 

 

I hate so many things they have done in this show. 

They take major plot points and just ignore them. 0 context for the seanchan. Hardly a whisper of what Artur Hawkwing was even in the conversation about the genesis of the 3 oaths. So much is glossed over in a throwaway line only to be noticed by a reader.

 

At this point I'm watching it just to see how much worse it can get

 

My only positive comment so far is that the actor who plays Logain is amazing. I want him to be the whole show at this point.

 

You came to the wrong place I am afraid, most of us that agree with you have been shunned, management here would rather have access to the production than admit just how bad the show is.

 

We all knew changes would need to be made, but there are adaptations then there is ignoring the basic plot altogether.  

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, Goathill said:

You came to the wrong place I am afraid, most of us that agree with you have been shunned, management here would rather have access to the production than admit just how bad the show is.

 

We all knew changes would need to be made, but there are adaptations then there is ignoring the basic plot altogether.  

No one has been shunned. We welcome all perspectives about the show on these forums.

[king of nowhere]

On 9/25/2023 at 2:08 AM, RitualM said:

Hello, new to the forums. Read the series twice. Love it. Browsed the forums a handful of times foe info on stuff.

 

 I am just so upset and almost insulted by how poor the show is I need to vent so a place where people might understand.

 

The way they ruined so many good characters just hurts me. I have no problem with adaptation and changes no show can be exact to a series and truthfully it rarely should be. They are different mediums and require different approaches.

 

This being said, their writing of Lan, Mat, and even Nyneve to a point is infuriating.

Mat is just.... awful, where is our playful trickster with insane luck?

Instead we get a cowardly kid who has none of the traits of Mat. 

mat got his development starting in book 3. he was kinda useless before that

Quote

 

Also Ta'veren being not spoken of is a huge mistake to me. 

Lan went for hard, badass cold swordsman to all the feelings sad puppy pining over his lost relationship to Moraine after her stilling. Like wtf...

 

yes, those are two legitimate issues that bothers me too. there are plenty of issues with the show, just like there are plenty of issues with the books; but both are good overall.

Quote

Nyneve instead of strong willed and bull headed seems just petulant and perpetually stressed out.

she came out as petulant in the books too. especially the early books, before she learned to control it.

Quote

Thom? Gone. Elayne? Her introduction was so awful.... 

thom was a great character, and he'll be back in S3. elayne introduction was great, i was very happy to see her.

On 9/29/2023 at 5:17 PM, Mirefox said:

  The outrage is far more vocal than the support outside of highly-moderated sites.

 

because all people wanting to flame go to non-moderated sites, while all the people wanting to have a civil discussion flee from those sites.

you imply this site is subject to censorship, but if that was the case, this thread would not have been approved in the first place.

 

 

 

[fra85uk]

On 9/29/2023 at 6:03 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Imma need a citation.

I'd wager that if you had the data, it would result in basically a bell curve. A few people who REALLY love it, a few people who REALLY hate it. And the vast majority somewhere in the middle.

I see it a little bit differently

 

When WOT-show was announced I bet noone and say noone would ever ever said:

" I Imagine that they will do "who is the Dragon" in S1, Nyn will be "resurrected" by Eg after they have destroyed the forces of the DO, Mat will be part of a disfunctional family, Perrin will have a wife and so on..."
In other words, this is for sure not the adaptation that a book-fan could have expected even if any reasonable book-fan would have expected cuts and changes.

If I had a time-machine and came here years ago proposing Rafe's script for the WOT-show, I bet I would have been mocked by all the community.

 

However, this is what it is and none of us can change it.

Some of us book-fans just stopped watching during/after S1 (the numbers say this)

Some are trying to watch (me) trying to think of it as an alternate story but still hoping that they course-correct a little bit

Some like/love the show as it is.

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

On 10/1/2023 at 7:32 AM, king of nowhere said:

you imply this site is subject to censorship, but if that was the case, this thread would not have been approved in the first place.

I mean, this site is subject to censorship as covered in this section of the website.  

https://dragonmount.com/forums/forum/561-forum-rules-guides/. (Hence why we have rules regarding Language, Naughty pictures, WoT Fan Fiction, etc.)
 

This is a private website hosted by private individual(s). It is not a website hosted by the US, State, or Local Government and is thus not subject to the 1st amendment which reads as follows:

Quote

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Last I checked, DM is not congress and passes no laws. DM is not a public space, it is a private space like someone's house.

Section 230 which was originally part of the Communications Decency Act is something DM is subject to in multiple ways. Both as a Publisher of WoT related News and Content, and as a Web Forum.

Broadly Section 230 makes DM not legally liable for things users post or upload.
Section 230 also legally allows DM to moderate user submitted content as it sees fit.
Should Section 230 ever get repealed, we'll likely see the Forums shut down, and every comment field turned off on DM.

In social media sphere(s) like Facebook, Twitter, and beyond this has led brigades of people to cry foul of "My free speech is being violated!"... In general, no it's not. Those sites can do whatever they want.
When the government requests those sites do it, that's another thing entirely... 

Either way, I think we can probably all agree that Facebook's algorithm moderation is an absolute joke. It's trash. They need to hire real people because holy crap the spam bots are bad on that platform. Really bad...

We balefire our Spambots here.

My spambot kill count is over 9000!

Edited October 2, 2023 by SinisterDeath
Clarified line regarding US/State/Local government

[Elder_Haman]

What @SinisterDeath said is entirely accurate.

It is also accurate to say that we do not delete posts because they express opinions about the show that we disagree with. We do not "shun" people who have negative opinions about the show. Nor do we throttle or ban people because we disagree with the opinions they express.

 

We do try to keep the discussion elevated and do not permit bots, spammers, or trolls to take over and ruin everyone's experience.

[CaddySedai]

I am of the opinion than any Wheel of Time and Wheel of Time adjacent content is good content. 

 

I mean they could have done us dirty like what happened to RoP. You think our fanbase is vocal? Eep. 

 

That said even the most faithful of adaptations would have found detractors. Less? Probably. But all good things are subject to the winds of change. 

 

The current winds dictate the current adaptation. Perhaps in the future should there remain demand for such - we could see a retelling. 

 

I mean Max is about to reboot Potter and totally hijack one of the greatest movie scores of all time lol. And their fandom just got a new banger of a video game. 

 

I would kill for a new video game in our fandom. 

 

I want content, I want to grow, I detest stagnation. 

 

I mean look at Star Wars - my kin in that fanbase had to suffer through so much shovelware just for a few gemstones. And its not a Disney only problem - this goes back to Lucas era. Disney just has had the unfortunate ability to produce so MANY turds in such a small window. Lucas really had to stew on his. lol. 

 

People coming to vent is also content. So carry on. 

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

I am of the opinion than any Wheel of Time and Wheel of Time adjacent content is good content. 

 

I mean they could have done us dirty like what happened to RoP. You think our fanbase is vocal? Eep. 

 

That said even the most faithful of adaptations would have found detractors. Less? Probably. But all good things are subject to the winds of change. 

 

The current winds dictate the current adaptation. Perhaps in the future should there remain demand for such - we could see a retelling. 

 

I mean Max is about to reboot Potter and totally hijack one of the greatest movie scores of all time lol. And their fandom just got a new banger of a video game. 

 

I would kill for a new video game in our fandom. 

 

I want content, I want to grow, I detest stagnation. 

 

I mean look at Star Wars - my kin in that fanbase had to suffer through so much shovelware just for a few gemstones. And its not a Disney only problem - this goes back to Lucas era. Disney just has had the unfortunate ability to produce so MANY turds in such a small window. Lucas really had to stew on his. lol. 

 

People coming to vent is also content. So carry on. 

I can confirm as a Tolkien lover I find it amusing when people claim this is not the WOT when what has been done to Lore in ROP is far far far worse. Again I understand the logic of some of the changes made for that franchise (time compression allowing the same actors to be around for all the seasons), but there are many I really don't like. 

Potter, I am dreading the remake, it is still far to fresh and new and the films still very much hold up. I also wonder how it will be received given all the controversy around JK. I know many many potter fans who are now feeling awkward about supporting any new works. 

But yes, WOT was always going to need to be changed, made different, and no, none of us saw this version, but, I think that is why none of us write a TV show, the writers have had a very very difficult job, trying to take all the stuff i the books, make it something that viewers would want to see, but we have discussed that over and over. Some of us are enjoying it, other are not I would say there is a definite scale in reality with actually very few people at either end (100% love it 100% hate it). 

But adaptations are hard, Foundation on Apple TV shows that even a very small book needs massive changes to be made to make it a good tv show. 

[Chivalry]

On 9/24/2023 at 8:08 PM, RitualM said:

Hello, new to the forums. Read the series twice. Love it. Browsed the forums a handful of times foe info on stuff.

 

 I am just so upset and almost insulted by how poor the show is I need to vent so a place where people might understand.

 

The way they ruined so many good characters just hurts me. I have no problem with adaptation and changes no show can be exact to a series and truthfully it rarely should be. They are different mediums and require different approaches.

 

This being said, their writing of Lan, Mat, and even Nyneve to a point is infuriating.

Mat is just.... awful, where is our playful trickster with insane luck?

Instead we get a cowardly kid who has none of the traits of Mat. 

Also Ta'veren being not spoken of is a huge mistake to me. 

Lan went for hard, badass cold swordsman to all the feelings sad puppy pining over his lost relationship to Moraine after her stilling. Like wtf...

 

Nyneve instead of strong willed and bull headed seems just petulant and perpetually stressed out.

 

Thom? Gone. Elayne? Her introduction was so awful.... 

 

I hate so many things they have done in this show. 

They take major plot points and just ignore them. 0 context for the seanchan. Hardly a whisper of what Artur Hawkwing was even in the conversation about the genesis of the 3 oaths. So much is glossed over in a throwaway line only to be noticed by a reader.

 

At this point I'm watching it just to see how much worse it can get

 

My only positive comment so far is that the actor who plays Logain is amazing. I want him to be the whole show at this point.

 

It's not what I wanted, and not my favorite show (though the books are my favorite series), but I don't think it's bad, just not great. It still has some wonderful moments. Despite the inconsistent writing, there have been some terrific acting performances.

 

I do think the show has done a poor job of reinforcing the history - Artur Hawkwing, the Karaethon Cycle, the destruction wrought by men wielding the power, etc. But they've only been given 8 episodes/season.

If you do choose to continue watching, try to think of this as a different turning of the Wheel, or an alternate universe. Not knowing what to expect actually heightens the dramatic tension and can make the experience more enjoyable.

 

 

On 10/2/2023 at 8:08 AM, fra85uk said:

 

However, this is what it is and none of us can change it.

Some of us book-fans just stopped watching during/after S1 (the numbers say this)

Some are trying to watch (me) trying to think of it as an alternate story but still hoping that they course-correct a little bit

Some like/love the show as it is.

 

Yup.

[Elder_Haman]

8 hours ago, Chivalry said:

 

It's not what I wanted, and not my favorite show (though the books are my favorite series), but I don't think it's bad, just not great. It still has some wonderful moments. Despite the inconsistent writing, there have been some terrific acting performances.

Would you agree that it improves from S1 to S2?

[Robbin Poh]

Recently joined the forum, came to vent at people venting at the show.
Please reread the books to remind yourselves the characters are exactly how they should be at this point in the plot. Also, RJ had to write books 1,2,3 with self-contained climax endings because he wasn't sure if he could find publishers for the next book, hence Rand's unrealistic victory each time even though he was still so untrained and inexperienced. It was only later on when WOT was a hit that RJ felt more free to revise the plot structure of books 4-11 as a continuous flow.

[Mirefox]

24 minutes ago, Robbin Poh said:

Recently joined the forum, came to vent at people venting at the show.
Please reread the books to remind yourselves the characters are exactly how they should be at this point in the plot. Also, RJ had to write books 1,2,3 with self-contained climax endings because he wasn't sure if he could find publishers for the next book, hence Rand's unrealistic victory each time even though he was still so untrained and inexperienced. It was only later on when WOT was a hit that RJ felt more free to revise the plot structure of books 4-11 as a continuous flow.

I’m sorry, what?  I can’t take posts like this seriously.  If you like the show, great, but let’s not pretend that the characters are all the same.  I mean, have you seen Lan?

 

The characters may end up at the same geographical location as they are in the books but they are not all the same characters.

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I’m sorry, what?  I can’t take posts like this seriously.  If you like the show, great, but let’s not pretend that the characters are all the same.  I mean, have you seen Lan?

 

The characters may end up at the same geographical location as they are in the books but they are not all the same characters.

Other than Lan, can you name a character that is significantly different from a development standpoint than they were in the books?

[Mirefox]

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Other than Lan, can you name a character that is significantly different from a development standpoint than they were in the books?

Sure.  Mat, Perrin, Rand, Moiraine, Thom, Min, off the top of my head.

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Sure.  Mat, Perrin, Rand, Moiraine, Thom, Min, off the top of my head.

Let's leave Min and Thom aside for the moment, since they are side characters at this point.

How are Mat, Perrin, Rand and Moiraine at a different place emotionally than they were at this point in the books?

[Chivalry]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Would you agree that it improves from S1 to S2?

I thought the earlier episodes of S2 were an improvement. I was not happy with the last episode. I thought the S1 finale was a huge letdown, so I will reserve judgment on the entire season until we see the Season 2 finale.

[Elder_Haman]

10 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

I thought the earlier episodes of S2 were an improvement. I was not happy with the last episode. I thought the S1 finale was a huge letdown, so I will reserve judgment on the entire season until we see the Season 2 finale.

Okay, fair. But would you agree that the overall quality of the show has improved from S1 to S2? Better CGI, better writing, stronger acting, etc.?