Lan, Moraine and the bond in the tv show

[nsmallw]

I haven't seen a discussion of the bond between Moiraine and Lan covered in one spot and I was hoping to see if we can get one here. 

I want to open the discussion with a question in the hopes that all the theories of the condition of their bond can be discussed.

 

In the books the bond with a Warder "allows an Aes Sedai to bend the will of their warders forcing them to obey." Now in the tv show does that still apply and if so, the fact that Moiraine orders Lan to go with Alanna and not follow her, doesn't that imply that the bond is still working ?  

[DigificWriter]

In the show, as presented, we have three scenarios in play:

1) Verin, Adeleas, and Tomas believe that Moiraine has been Stilled and that the bond between her and Lan has been broken; Moiraine herself also believes that she's been Stilled, but is keeping herself going out of sheer willpower and the unflinching belief that Rand, the Dragon Reborn, needs her help

 

2) Lan is 'less than he was' without the bond, but remains committed to protecting and serving Moiraine, leading to frustration as she pulls away from him and eventually forces him to go with Alanna by threatening to have her Bond him by force and against his will

 

3) Alanna, Ihvon, and Maksim either think that Moiraine released the bond (Alanna) or that the fact that the bond is gone means that Lan might be suicidal (Ihvon and Maksim)

 

Any confusion arises, IMO, from there being visual similarities between Shielding and whatever Ishy actually did to Moiraine and people therefore prioritizing the theory that Moiraine has been Shielded over the show's more prevalent indications that she's been Stilled.

Edited September 13, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Mirefox]

This is pure conjecture, obviously, but I've always thought that whatever is going on with Moiraine, I believe it is being used as a vehicle to get Nyn healing stilling earlier in the story.

 

I also think that when this happens, Lan is going to act like he was just hit by lightning and realize that "she's back," or something like that.

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, Mirefox said:

This is pure conjecture, obviously, but I've always thought that whatever is going on with Moiraine, I believe it is being used as a vehicle to get Nyn healing stilling earlier in the story.

 

I also think that when this happens, Lan is going to act like he was just hit by lightning and realize that "she's back," or something like that.

I don't see Nyn learning to heal stilling any quicker the the books at all, I think this is just a mechanic to show that Forsaken can shield this efficiently, it makes them more of a threat to Rand and other channellers, it sets up the jeopardy later on when, for instance, Nyn goes one on one with a Forsaken, or when Egwene takes one on. it demonstrates that where as the Aes Sedai have to maintain a shield as they did against Logain, forsaken do not it is showing a key element of the show moving forward instead of simply telling us in exposition because channellers being shielded throughout the story is a pretty key mechanic all the way to the civil war in the black tower and into the last battle. 

[ForsakenPotato]

I'm glad you started a separate topic for this because I've also found it confusing in the show and I didn't want to dig through all the unread discussion topics to see if anyone could shed light on it.

 

Things I'm confused by:

- When Moiraine was attacked by fades, did she was channel a weensy bit right before Verin appeared? Was that just the start of Verin's channeling or was it supposed to indicate Moiraine can reach the source when need is great enough, but just barely? Certainly that would be impossible if she was stilled, but is that a thing in the books with shielding?

- Lan and one of Alanna's warders had a kind of long conversation about masking and how often and for how long their bonds had been masked. We already knew about masking from season 1, was this just a refresher? Seems like a weird use of limited show time so maybe I missed some new info we were supposed to glean that was relevant to the current bond situation. Also, the warders know that their Aes Sedai distrust one another, often for good reason...doesn't that make it pretty strange for them to be having gossip sessions about their Aes Sedai's private behavior together?

- Are Moiraine and Lan acting way weirder than in the books? Certainly she had plans to pass the bond if anything happened to her, which she knew was likely (maybe even certain) but I think I remember her sharing that fact pretty openly with him so he could come to terms with it. I'm not sure what's being accomplished by pushing him away in the manner she has been. I don't remember Lan ever being this clingy (to Moiraine or Nyneave, and they both went off on their own to do dangerous stuff on more than one occasion) and I don't remember Moiraine ever being this cruel. I can't tell if they've had their personalities changed for the show to make them a bit more flawed, if this is just to illustrate the strain they are under with her being shielded or stilled, or something else yet to be revealed is going on.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I’m definitely trying to figure some stuff out regarding the bond as well. Admittedly I may be operating on a flawed assumption from the start, but I had the impression that the bond and the emphasis on its affects established a deep and intrinsic connection that once in place it was essentially like the bonded parties were completely and mutually transparent for the most part. Like when lan tells Tomas they didn’t need to verbally communicate thanks to the bond. So the idea that moiraine and lan have been together and cultivated their bond for 20+ years yet in all that time he wasn’t aware of her main purpose and motives has me baffled. I’m referring to Alanna’s statement that he didn’t know her “before” and other indicators that he’s not aware of her intentions and still in the dark about her and who she is in many ways. I will admit though that I am aware that I may be seriously misunderstanding what is actually going on between them on screen. 

[DigificWriter]

@Lightfriendsocialmistress It's important to keep in mind two things when it comes to Alanna's conversations with Lan:

1) she is genuinely in the dark about Moiraine's mission and therefore unaware of what Lan may or may not know about her

 

2) she thinks that Moiraine released Lan's bond

 

Because of these two factors, nothing she says on the subject of Moiraine or the bond should be taken at face value since, like Nynaeve did in Fal Dara, she's jumping to (wrong) conclusions.

[nsmallw]

I am convinced that Lan is deliberately acting dumb to Allana and her boys. 

I believe he is intentionally keeping them in the dark because he doesn't entirely trust them. 

So that's why he's so uncommitted when they ask questions or make statements. 

 

I believe he has known Moiraine's mission from the get go and been an active partner. I believe she told him about the foretelling of the DR rebirth by Gitara and always kept him in the know. However, since she Rand's "death",  she's been keeping information from Lan for her own reasons, maybe to keep him "protected" . Thoughts ?

[Scarloc99]

3 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

I am convinced that Lan is deliberately acting dumb to Allana and her boys. 

I believe he is intentionally keeping them in the dark because he doesn't entirely trust them. 

So that's why he's so uncommitted when they ask questions or make statements. 

 

I believe he has known Moiraine's mission from the get go and been an active partner. I believe she told him about the foretelling of the DR rebirth by Gitara and always kept him in the know. However, since she Rand's "death",  she's been keeping information from Lan for her own reasons, maybe to keep him "protected" . Thoughts ?

In the books Lan was fully aware of the need to find the Dragon, he was also fully aware of the existence of the Black Ajah, One of the reasons Moiraine and Siuan kept things secret. SO I can see him not divulging anything to anyone about anything. Especially that whatever happened to Moiraine was done by a forsaken. 

[Storeebooq]

On 9/13/2023 at 6:06 AM, nsmallw said:

I haven't seen a discussion of the bond between Moiraine and Lan covered in one spot and I was hoping to see if we can get one here. 

I want to open the discussion with a question in the hopes that all the theories of the condition of their bond can be discussed.

 

In the books the bond with a Warder "allows an Aes Sedai to bend the will of their warders forcing them to obey." Now in the tv show does that still apply and if so, the fact that Moiraine orders Lan to go with Alanna and not follow her, doesn't that imply that the bond is still working ?  

In the books, the "compelling" feature of the bond needed for the Aes Sedai to channel a small thread of spirit directly into the bond, something of which Moiraine can't do. So, she's using pure headology to get Lan to go. 

 

 

[ForsakenPotato]

9 hours ago, nsmallw said:

I am convinced that Lan is deliberately acting dumb to Allana and her boys. 

I believe he is intentionally keeping them in the dark because he doesn't entirely trust them. 

So that's why he's so uncommitted when they ask questions or make statements. 

 

I believe he has known Moiraine's mission from the get go and been an active partner. I believe she told him about the foretelling of the DR rebirth by Gitara and always kept him in the know. However, since she Rand's "death",  she's been keeping information from Lan for her own reasons, maybe to keep him "protected" . Thoughts ?

I have also considered how much of both Moiraine and Lan's current behavior is an act, especially given how in sync they were in Season 1, and I agree he knows more than anyone else (save maybe Siuan) about Moiraine's overall goals. If all of their conflict and miscommunication this season had been in front of others, I would have been almost certain, but it's clear in season 2 they aren't even on the same page when they are alone together.

 

Arguably Lan isn't just acting dumb with Alanna and her warders, he's also being kind of dumb. Unless he intentionally left that poem in his bag for Alanna to find, he should have know that was the type of thing to not let out of sight. He probably shouldn't have told her warders about all the times she's masked their bond. I would get that kind of behavior from one of our naive young heroes, but Lan absolutely knows better. The only explanations I can think of are that:

1. He is under a lot more strain from the missing bond than is obvious so he's being really sloppy

2. He's mad at Moiraine for not telling him stuff and being mean, and he's retaliating (either consciously or unconciously) by being sloppy

Neither of those really fit his personality in my opinion, so I'm hoping we get a better explanation of what's going on.

[Mirefox]

On 9/14/2023 at 7:08 PM, ForsakenPotato said:

I have also considered how much of both Moiraine and Lan's current behavior is an act, especially given how in sync they were in Season 1, and I agree he knows more than anyone else (save maybe Siuan) about Moiraine's overall goals. If all of their conflict and miscommunication this season had been in front of others, I would have been almost certain, but it's clear in season 2 they aren't even on the same page when they are alone together.

 

Arguably Lan isn't just acting dumb with Alanna and her warders, he's also being kind of dumb. Unless he intentionally left that poem in his bag for Alanna to find, he should have know that was the type of thing to not let out of sight. He probably shouldn't have told her warders about all the times she's masked their bond. I would get that kind of behavior from one of our naive young heroes, but Lan absolutely knows better. The only explanations I can think of are that:

1. He is under a lot more strain from the missing bond than is obvious so he's being really sloppy

2. He's mad at Moiraine for not telling him stuff and being mean, and he's retaliating (either consciously or unconciously) by being sloppy

Neither of those really fit his personality in my opinion, so I'm hoping we get a better explanation of what's going on.

 

The problem is, that even if it is an act I feel like it betrays the character in the book.  Yes, Lan would give aliases in different towns, but I cannot imagine a scenario in the book where Lan would plot out an elaborate ruse then let Moiraine ride off on her own.

[ForsakenPotato]

On 9/20/2023 at 12:56 PM, Mirefox said:

 

The problem is, that even if it is an act I feel like it betrays the character in the book.  Yes, Lan would give aliases in different towns, but I cannot imagine a scenario in the book where Lan would plot out an elaborate ruse then let Moiraine ride off on her own.

Right, if it were an act all the drama between him including Moiraine riding off alone would be part of some greater plan they had concocted together. I think at this point there's probably enough evidence to say that's not what's happening though.

[nsmallw]

How does everyone feel about the resolution to the Moiraine/Lan bond, stilled or shielded plot line ?

 

I enjoy how they did it but wish it hadn't lasted so long and they took a bit more time showing Lan had a plan all along to help Moiraine. 

[Mirefox]

1 hour ago, nsmallw said:

How does everyone feel about the resolution to the Moiraine/Lan bond, stilled or shielded plot line ?

 

I enjoy how they did it but wish it hadn't lasted so long and they took a bit more time showing Lan had a plan all along to help Moiraine. 

If by resolution you mean Moiraine being able to channel and Lan as her warder, it’s a great resolution.

 

Except it is a resolution to a problem that shouldn’t have existed and was sloppily handled.  I don’t like how Lan turned into some great scholar to solve the problem and I don’t like the way Rand was suddenly able to do something with precision that he had no understanding of.

[fra85uk]

Imagine a tv-drama in which a character loses her sense of hearing

Then her partner, a kung fu master, after moaning for 6 episode, discovers ancient medicine that could save her

The surgery is performed by a college freshman who has literally dumped all his semester classes.

 

That's it

Edited October 2, 2023 by fra85uk

[Guire]

3 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Imagine a tv-drama in which a character loses her sense of hearing

Then her partner, a kung fu master, after moaning for 6 episode, discovers ancient medicine that could save her

The surgery is performed by a college freshman who has literally dumped all his semester classes.

 

That's it

How often does the kung fu master show his butt and serve fruit? Because I think Prime is interested.

[fra85uk]

1 minute ago, Guire said:

How often does the kung fu master show his butt and serve fruit? Because I think Prime is interested.

 

He is an expert of the sacred and secret tecnique of nipple-torque

[Guire]

21 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

 

He is an expert of the sacred and secret tecnique of nipple-torque

The purple nurple sword form exposes the user to great personal danger.  Sometimes the nipple must twisted even if the cost is great.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

I don’t like how Lan turned into some great scholar to solve the problem

He didn’t? Stuff wasn’t adding up so he talked to Verin about it. 

 

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

Except it is a resolution to a problem that shouldn’t have existed and was sloppily handled.

Why shouldn’t the problem have existed? (Don’t say it wasn’t in the books, that’s not a real answer). And how was it sloppy? 

[nsmallw]

Did the show have a sceneof  Lan talking to Verin about it ? 

[Elder_Haman]

No. But does everything have to be spelled out? Or do you think audiences are capable of making reasonable inferences?

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

No. But does everything have to be spelled out? Or do you think audiences are capable of making reasonable inferences?

As we know, TV Shows need to "show not tell" in regards to exposition. 

I believe this also relates to plot relevant inferences.

We don't need to see the characters relieve themselves to infer that they do in fact, relieve themselves on trees.

Just like we don't need to see how Liandrin managed to single handedly sneak 3 accepted out of the tower, and have time to run back up the tower and put a compulsion weave on Sheriam to make a false entry on the girls leaving the tower, to make the assumption that Liandrin had all kinds of help in Tar Valon, even if it was just making liberal use of compulsion.

Even then, given how little Lan actually did this season and how much of it was acting off of those around him? Why not show Lan getting help from someone, or show Lan doing some research, instead of just telling us that he found something?

Because in all honesty, they violated that one rule. They told us, instead of showing us.

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

As we know, TV Shows need to "show not tell" in regards to exposition. 

I believe this also relates to plot relevant inferences.

Eh. Yes and no. 
All shows have to cut some corners in this regard to make the action flow and to get other things on screen. 
 

I’m just not bothered by not having a full explanation for how the girls were taken from the Tower. Lan saying, “I found this thing out” would have been terrible without his scene with Logain. With that scene it’s just a sort of annoying little plot hole. 

[SinisterDeath]

22 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Eh. Yes and no. 
All shows have to cut some corners in this regard to make the action flow and to get other things on screen. 

I’m just not bothered by not having a full explanation for how the girls were taken from the Tower.

Yep. And we've covered the whole girl-tower-escape thing to death. lol

They cut corners, and implied a conspiracy for those looking to thinking about it. I'm fine with that.

 

22 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 Lan saying, “I found this thing out” would have been terrible without his scene with Logain. With that scene it’s just a sort of annoying little plot hole. 

This though is just a harder pill to swallow.

A woman can no more teach a man to channel than a fish can teach a dog to climb a tree.

 

Yet, we had Lan figured out some random obscure knowledge regarding the Forsaken, completely off screen, when we've mostly ever seen him brooding, mediating, or standing around shirtless.

Involving Verin is only conjecture. We don't know that she had anything to do with it. As written, it could 100% be Lan that figured it out with no help from anyone, and he got his eureka moment after talking to Logain. No Logain would have been horrible... And not just because less Logain is bad for the show! He rocks every scene he's in!

I dunno, I feel like if any scenes hit the cutting room floor, like Lan in a library, reading a book, or even any interaction with a brown Ajah, that the editors did a lazy job in terms of continuity due to Amazon's BS adherence to "run time restrictions".