WoT Season 2 Episode 4: Daughter of the Night

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, Mailman said:

55 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Ahh the good old its a story about space wizards intended for children argument. A very poor argument. Internal consistency is vital at a fundamental level for good writing.

Dude. Literally all she needed was a carriage and two burly helpers to get the girls inside. You are overthinking it. 
 

This is not Oochie’s random dagger or writing that does nothing to create conflict between the protagonist and antagonist. This is hand waving a not particularly critical piece of information to get to the parts that matter. 
 

You are emotionally invested in the show being poor and refuse to see anything that doesn’t fit that narrative. 

[Mailman]

31 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Dude. Literally all she needed was a carriage and two burly helpers to get the girls inside. You are overthinking it. 
 

This is not Oochie’s random dagger or writing that does nothing to create conflict between the protagonist and antagonist. This is hand waving a not particularly critical piece of information to get to the parts that matter. 
 

You are emotionally invested in the show being poor and refuse to see anything that doesn’t fit that narrative. 

 

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

In a show where people can do magic, raise people from the dead, speak to one another in dreams, talk to wolves, see visions of the future and where the spirits of the long dead are being resurrected to bring about the end to time, you want me to worry about the logistics of how three people are kidnapped. 
 

pass. 

When you start a defense for your argument that includes the second quote how can you seriously criticize any other media.

 

The sequel star wars movies almost literally cover every point you make in the 2nd quote yet from your comment you appear to not see it as quality writing. Surely looking at those points you make you must see some cross over.

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Mailman

[Elder_Haman]

7 hours ago, Mailman said:

 

When you start a defense for your argument that includes the second quote how can you seriously criticize any other media.

 

The sequel star wars movies almost literally cover every point you make in the 2nd quote yet from your comment you appear to not see it as quality writing. Surely looking at those points you make you must see some cross over.

 

 I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make?

 

The writing for the last Star Wars film (The Force Awakens?) was far worse than WoT at its worst.

[EmreY]

39 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 The writing for the last Star Wars film (The Force Awakens?) was far worse than WoT at its worst.

 

Hmm.  I see you cut that canon short.  Wise man. 🙂

 

 

[Mailman]

47 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make?

 

The writing for the last Star Wars film (The Force Awakens?) was far worse than WoT at its worst.

The point is fairly obvious in that all the points you raised in the 2nd quote i provided could just as easily be attributed to the SW sequels as your use of them to dismiss my concerns with the plan she used. 

 

  9 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

In a show where people can do magic, raise people from the dead, speak to one another in dreams, talk to wolves, see visions of the future and where the spirits of the long dead are being resurrected to bring about the end to time, you want me to worry about the logistics of how three people are kidnapped. 
 

pass. 

 

In a show where people can do magic, raise people from the dead, speak to one another across the galaxy via mind tricks, see visions of the future and where the spirits of the long dead are being resurrected to bring about galactic domination you want me to worry about the logisitics of a knife being a map.

 

pass.

 

All 3 SW sequels are examples of terrible writing. Force awakens is the best of the 3. But they are all disgraceful.

[Elder_Haman]

7 minutes ago, Mailman said:

The point is fairly obvious in that all the points you raised in the 2nd quote i provided could just as easily be attributed to the SW sequels as your use of them to dismiss my concerns with the plan she used. 

 

  9 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

In a show where people can do magic, raise people from the dead, speak to one another in dreams, talk to wolves, see visions of the future and where the spirits of the long dead are being resurrected to bring about the end to time, you want me to worry about the logistics of how three people are kidnapped. 
 

pass. 

 

In a show where people can do magic, raise people from the dead, speak to one another across the galaxy via mind tricks, see visions of the future and where the spirits of the long dead are being resurrected to bring about galactic domination you want me to worry about the logisitics of a knife being a map.

 

pass.

 

All 3 SW sequels are examples of terrible writing. Force awakens is the best of the 3. But they are all disgraceful.

It could be so applied only if you are desperate to engage in bad faith arguments. 
 

You are bellyaching about not seeing how the mechanics of the kidnapping played out and claiming that it is an example of terrible, amateurish writing.
 

And I’m telling you that in this universe, the existence of magic and Liandrin’s connection to the Black provide an easy explanation that need not be depicted on screen. The rules of this world make the logistics of the kidnapping unimportant. 

[Mailman]

10 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

It could be so applied only if you are desperate to engage in bad faith arguments. 
 

You are bellyaching about not seeing how the mechanics of the kidnapping played out and claiming that it is an example of terrible, amateurish writing.
 

And I’m telling you that in this universe, the existence of magic and Liandrin’s connection to the Black provide an easy explanation that need not be depicted on screen. The rules of this world make the logistics of the kidnapping unimportant. 

Rubbish.

 

You quoted me asking what was so hard about how she got them to Falme.

I responded with a number of things that would have caused serious issues.

You then dismissed this with an argument that basically boils down to the it's space wizards for children and criticized the rise of skywalker, to which I pointed out that the defense you applied was almost an exact fit for that very movie.

 

  9 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

In a show where people can do magic, raise people from the dead, speak to one another in dreams, talk to wolves, see visions of the future and where the spirits of the long dead are being resurrected to bring about the end to time, you want me to worry about the logistics of how three people are kidnapped.

 

Again these are your own words I fail to see how I have in any way engaged in a bad faith argument.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Mailman

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Mailman said:

You then dismissed this with an argument that basically boils down to the it's space wizards for children and criticized the last jedi, to which I pointed out that the defense you applied was almost an exact fit for that very movie.

No. I presented several perfectly logical explanations for how it could be accomplished. You responded by claiming that I was making up my own explanations and that was indicative of bad writing. 
 

It was at that point that I washed my hands of this silly argument by making the statement you so enjoy quoting. 
 

 

[Mailman]

39 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

No. I presented several perfectly logical explanations for how it could be accomplished. You responded by claiming that I was making up my own explanations and that was indicative of bad writing. 
 

It was at that point that I washed my hands of this silly argument by making the statement you so enjoy quoting. 
 

 

Go back and look the only suggestion you provided before you apparently washed your hands and made the statement was, she might have had help.

[Elder_Haman]

11 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Go back and look the only suggestion you provided before you apparently washed your hands and made the statement was, she might have had help.

And that she could put the girls over the horses. 

[Mailman]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

And that she could put the girls over the horses. 

That was not in question we saw her leading the horses out of the ways. It was actually in the show!!!

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Mailman said:

That was not in question we saw her leading the horses out of the ways. It was actually in the show!!!

Correct! 

[VooDooNut]

I don't particularly like the depiction of The Ways in the show. It didn't quite work for me last season, and the re-use of the set pieces in season 2 didn't help. But in defense of lack of details in Liandrine's novice nabbing, it's fun to leave some things to mystery. In fact, I would have almost preferred if they skipped the scene in The Ways entirely.

[Mailman]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Correct! 

I have no idea what point you are trying to make or you think you have made. You are taking something that happened in the show and claiming that as something you suggested. 

 

[Elder_Haman]

On 9/19/2023 at 9:19 AM, Elder_Haman said:

As demonstrated when they came out of the ways, Liandrin was knocking the girls out and draping them over their horses. Why is that hard? Especially when you can use the OP to accomplish all the lifting.

This was my original comment on this issue. 
 

Then you hemmed and hawed: 

23 hours ago, Mailman said:

Well ok.

First you have to shield 3 channelers by yourself.

Then you have to transport 3 unconscious students through the tower and into the stables all without being seen.

Then further you have to ride said horses with unconscious and bound students to the waygate even if you assume that the waygate is located inside all the guard checkpoints that would require an amazing amount of luck.

As for the using the power to lift in the books I think Siuan says that she used to be able to lift about 3 times her bodyweight before her severing so splitting that into 3 flows and keeping it up for at least the distance to the stables would probably be very difficult.

There are lots of other potential difficulties that time would have caused to this plan but since the show basically skips all travel it's impossible to tell.

 

It was a terrible change, terribly written and thought out from start to end. It makes even less sense because in the show unarguably Nynaeve trusts Liandrin more than the books making the use of a trick far more likely to be successful.

To which I replied that she could have had help. You kept arguing about it: 

 

22 hours ago, Mailman said:

Even having assistance does not make moving 3 bodies unseen any easier. Seeing 3 unconscious and bound students being moved in the tower is going to raise a mountain of questions.

 

And you are writing the script for the show and filling in plot holes because of your desire for it to work.

At which point I got irritated and made the statement in question. 

[Mailman]

11 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This was my original comment on this issue. 
 

Then you hemmed and hawed: 

To which I replied that she could have had help. You kept arguing about it: 

 

At which point I got irritated and made the statement in question. 

Hemmed and hawed? How are any of those responses vague or evasive. They are legitimate concerns when faced with moving 3 bodies through a public and guarded place. They also address some of the concerns in regards to using the power in this situation.

 

Your only suggestion continues to be she could have had help to which I replied that it does not remove all of the concerns and there is no evidence of it.

 

And it is only brought up again now because you stated that you made several logical explanations before making the in question quote. It also feels like at this point you are distancing yourself from the logic of that quote and that you deployed it against me because you where sick of arguing with me about it.

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Mailman

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Mailman said:

And it is only brought up again now because you stated that you made several logical explanations before making the in question quote. It also feels like at this point you are distancing yourself from the logic of that quote and that you deployed it against me because you were sick of arguing with me about it.

I did deploy it because I’m sick of arguing with you about it. It’s a silly argument. 
 

I don’t need to know the details of the kidnapping and don’t think it was poorly written for failing to depict those details. I’m sorry that offends you so. 

[SinisterDeath]

How about we just WAFO? 

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I did deploy it because I’m sick of arguing with you about it. It’s a silly argument. 
 

I don’t need to know the details of the kidnapping and don’t think it was poorly written for failing to depict those details. I’m sorry that offends you so. 

You asked what was hard about it.

I responded then barely a couple of messages in you appear tired of it. Resorting to i don't care about how it happened.

 

I would still like to know how my answers where vague or evasive?

Edited September 21, 2023 by Mailman

[A Memory Of Why]

Regarding Liandrins kidnapping..

 

As much as I enjoy watching the Mods bash their heads against a wall this really is a redundant argument.

 

Why waste precious screen time on what is essentially a minor quibble, book fans can easily find numerous ways to explain this away and there's enough shown in this episode for show only fans to understand..

 

Their next scene Liandrin outs herself as black, following that her and Suroth show this is their Masters plan who we know is Ishy.

 

We also have Ishy telling Lanfear how he doesn't waste lives he can use..

 

Adding that together is it really that far of a leap to suggest that a member of the Black Ajah, on orders from Ishy who is the leader of the Forsaken, wouldn't have the resources to pull off this kidnapping?

 

Don't get me wrong, there's been some questionable writing / plots.. but I don't think this is bad writing, just unnecessary to explain further.

 

I'm curious to know if show only fans have an issue with this?

Edited September 21, 2023 by A Memory Of Why

[notpropaganda73]

Honestly, for all the complaints about the show, wanting to waste time on exactly how Liandrin got them to Falme is hilarious. I can just hear the complaints if we'd seen the step-by-step: "We barely got any screen time for Mat this season but we had a whole stupid HOW TO KIDNAP episode UGHHHHH" 

 

 

[king of nowhere]

6 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

, I would have almost preferred if they skipped the scene in The Ways entirely.

I disagree. While the logistics of the kidnapping are very easy to explain in a variety of ways and i really don't see why some people keep insisting that we need to be shown the details, there is exactly one issue that could cause confusion, and that's how they crossed the continent in a couple of days. Many fantasy shows are rightly criticized for moving characters around at the speed of plot; in this case there's a perfect explanation and it's good to show it.

It didn't even cost screen time, because liandrin and nynaeve needed to have that "i have betrayed many things" conversatiin anyway.

 

As for the shields, we book readers know the difference between tied and held shields. And while escaping from a tied shield is possible, it requires skill, so it may be above the capability of two novices and an accepted with a block.

It would be really nice if logain explained it to rand, though

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Honestly, for all the complaints about the show, wanting to waste time on exactly how Liandrin got them to Falme is hilarious. I can just hear the complaints if we'd seen the step-by-step: "We barely got any screen time for Mat this season but we had a whole stupid HOW TO KIDNAP episode UGHHHHH" 

 

 

It does not have to be step by step but if you cant see an issue with transporting 3 unconscious students through the inside of the tower into the stables and then to the waygate you are not taking the practicalities of the world seriously.

 

And I wholeheartedly agree with the desperate need to give more time to character development and world building.

 

The biggest issue is why the change from the book especially in this instance as they have gone out of there way to develop a connection between Nynaeve and Liandrin.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Mailman

[notpropaganda73]

2 minutes ago, Mailman said:

It does not have to be step by step but if you cant see an issue with transporting 3 unconscious students through the inside of the tower into the stables and then to the waygate you are not taking the practicalities of the world seriously.

 

The biggest issue is why the change from the book especially in this instance as they have gone out of there way to develop a connection between Nynaeve and Liandrin.

 

As mentioned to you numerous times already, it is by no means a leap for Liandrin to have help from within the Tower to get them to the Waygate. For one, where she knocked them out is some secret path out of the Tower they have already set up in a previous episode when Nynaeve followed her, so I don't think getting them out of the Tower is necessarily difficult - did you have issues with a Novice wandering around Tar Valon? Because that's more of an issue to me than a high-ranking Black Ajah Aes Sedai on a mission from the leader of the Forsaken managing to move the 3 bodies to the Waygate.

 

Maybe she had some other Darkfriends meet her at this exit point from the Tower with a wagon, at night. And the three girls are loaded onto the wagon and they ride to the Waygate, where horses are waiting for them. Wow, what an exciting scene, I am devastated we did not get this absolute key scene to the entire series in the show, what a terrible adaptation, Rafe of Time, etc etc etc etc etc

[Mailman]

11 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

As mentioned to you numerous times already, it is by no means a leap for Liandrin to have help from within the Tower to get them to the Waygate. For one, where she knocked them out is some secret path out of the Tower they have already set up in a previous episode when Nynaeve followed her, so I don't think getting them out of the Tower is necessarily difficult - did you have issues with a Novice wandering around Tar Valon? Because that's more of an issue to me than a high-ranking Black Ajah Aes Sedai on a mission from the leader of the Forsaken managing to move the 3 bodies to the Waygate.

 

Maybe she had some other Darkfriends meet her at this exit point from the Tower with a wagon, at night. And the three girls are loaded onto the wagon and they ride to the Waygate, where horses are waiting for them. Wow, what an exciting scene, I am devastated we did not get this absolute key scene to the entire series in the show, what a terrible adaptation, Rafe of Time, etc etc etc etc etc

Yes the novices roaming the tower has been an irritant, not as much however as them being able to gain access to the room housing the 3 arches Ter'angreal easily was though. Having a camp out down there was just insane.

 

My problem is its a shit plan. Anyone seeing 3 bodies loaded into a wagon is going to question WTF is going on. There is always a chance of being lucky and not being seen but it's a big chance to take. Why not have Nynaeve who you have built up a trust with simply meet you at the waygate.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Mailman