Aes Sedai aging

[DigificWriter]

Inspired by the reveal of Liandrin having an elderly son and by some things I was reading on Reddit and elsewhere, I wanted to discuss Aes Sedai aging and what it might mean for the personal timelines of characters we care about. I've tagged this thread with both show spoilers and book spoilers because while I'll be sticking solely to the show, I wan to allow others to bring whatever book knows they might possess to bear.

 

Rosamund Pike said in an interview that Show!Moiraine is in her 70s, and it's heavily implied in Season 1 that she, Alanna, Siuan, and Liandrin are  all contemporaries of one another at the Tower and that Moiraine and Liandrin were "Pillowfriends" at some point, which would mean that all four characters would be in their 70s.

 

Assuming that this is all correct, it implies several things:

1) that there's not a standard 'slowed' rate at which Aes Sedai age relative to one another 

2) that Liandrin's son appeared as physically elderly as he did because of an illness that Liandrin can't heal or otherwise have healed, not natural aging 

3) that it was unprecedented for an Aes Sedai in her 50s to attain the Amrylin Seat before Siuan did so (since, IIRC, somebody says something in Season 1 about her (Siuan) being the youngest Amrylin in history)

 

Thoughts?

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

Inspired by the reveal of Liandrin having an elderly son and by some things I was reading on Reddit and elsewhere, I wanted to discuss Aes Sedai aging and what it might mean for the personal timelines of characters we care about. I've tagged this thread with both show spoilers and book spoilers because while I'll be sticking solely to the show, I wan to allow others to bring whatever book knows they might possess to bear.

 

Rosamund Pike said in an interview that Show!Moiraine is in her 70s, and it's heavily implied in Season 1 that she, Alanna, Siuan, and Liandrin are  all contemporaries of one another at the Tower and that Moiraine and Liandrin were "Pillowfriends" at some point, which would mean that all four characters would be in their 70s.

 

Assuming that this is all correct, it implies several things:

1) that there's not a standard 'slowed' rate at which Aes Sedai age relative to one another 

2) that Liandrin's son appeared as physically elderly as he did because of an illness that Liandrin can't heal or otherwise have healed, not natural aging 

3) that it was unprecedented for an Aes Sedai in her 50s to attain the Amrylin Seat before Siuan did so (since, IIRC, somebody says something in Season 1 about her (Siuan) being the youngest Amrylin in history)

 

Thoughts?

So Aes Sedai in the books can live to about 300 years old, when Siuan was raised the hall made a conscious decision to raise a young amirylian, she was in her 30’s, because there had been a lot of disruption (3 amirylians in a short space of time). So it was unprecedented but all the candidates the tower looked at had held the shawl for 50 years. 
 

Liandrin in the books is about 30-40 years old I believe so they have aged her significantly here, my guess would be she is about 70-80, women in the tower become aes sedai after varying amounts of time Moraine and Siuan attained the shawl in a record amount of time so they could have been raised the same time but be much younger then Liandrin. 
 

I don’t think it really matters what he is ill with, but not all aes sedai have the same strength in the same thing, so in the books Egwene has no ability with healing even though she is one of the most powerful channelers in history, so she links to a yellow to give her strength so they can heal. So the illness could be very simple and Liandrin very powerful and she still can’t heal it with the power. 
 

As for the pillow friends, I don’t remember that comment at all, Moraine and Siuan were from almost day one. Liandrin might  have had pillow friends though but in the books she certainly has never been. 
 

So in terms of “slowing” the oath rod really affects that, we will find out later that by binding to an oath on the rod an aes sedai significantly reduces their age, we will meet channelers later in the series who have never sworn on the rod and are 8-900 years old and still going strong, some looking like they are on there hundreads, others looking young and sprightly so there is no exact science to how a women with the power looks as she ages. 
 

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Elder_Haman]

45 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

it's heavily implied in Season 1 that she, Alanna, Siuan, and Liandrin are  all contemporaries of one another at the Tower and that Moiraine and Liandrin were "Pillowfriends" at some point, which would mean that all four characters would be in their 70s.

I think you're reaching a bit here. (1) I don't think there's much evidence for them being 'contemporaries' as there is for being part of a particular clique within the tower. We don't know how far separated they were in age as novices or whether one became Accepted more quickly. (2) I don't see any evidence of Moiraine and Liandrin having a previous romantic relationship - am I forgetting something?

 

I think that scene is what it seemed. That Liandrin would be 20 or 30 years older than Moiraine isn't out of the question.

[Agitel]

So, full spoilers for the books... I'm going to still tag this because some of these plot points may be revealed in the show later, and I'm spoiling what is a minor mystery in the books for a bit.

Spoiler

All channelers age more slowly. And they without any other qualifiers would still get gray hairs, wrinkles, and so on, as they get very old. Aes Sedai in particular swear the Three Oaths, and this binding process affects their aging. They still live 200-300 years but their lifespan is particularly cut shorter than it would be otherwise by these oaths. However, the Oaths also result in the channeler taking on an ageless look. Their skin doesn't wrinkle, or sag, and it becomes difficult for people to place their age. Their hair still does eventually whiten or gray, but that's really it.

 

In the books Moiraine, Siuane and Liandrin are all just over 40 years old or so. Siuane is exceptionally young for an Amyrlin. Most Sitters (basically reps for the Ajahs on their little legislature) attain at least triple digits before getting that position, or get near enough to that age. And the Amyrlin is typically older still.

 

Regarding the show, I think they dropped the ageless looks just because it'd be a lot of make up and rule out a lot of potential good actors who can command a screen. I'm not sure if the varying age rates is canon or just a visual concession so they can get good actors.

 

Regarding Liandrin's son, I'm not sure what to make of him not being Healed. Liandrin might have little to no talent with Healing, and she may be too concerned with not opening herself to others that she's never sought Healing for him or revealed him to anyone else. I suppose it could just be a serious disease that is beyond the Healing skills of the Yellow Ajah, but I think that begs the question a bit. I hadn't pondered it until this topic.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Agitel

[Agitel]

I don't think we have any confirmed 800-900 year old channelers confirmed in the "present day" in the books, do we? I think 500 is the oldest we've been introduced to. Though I do think 800-900 happened during the Age of Legends.

[DigificWriter]

The implication that Moiraine and Liandrin were "Pillowfriends" comes from the scene in "Blood Calls Blood" where the latter intimately strokes the former's face. Dialogue from the same scene also rather heavily implies a past relationship between them beyond their both being Aes Sedai.

 

Regardless, we do know that Moiraine, Alanna, and Siuan are contemporaries because of dialogue indicating as much either directly or indirectly.

Edited September 6, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Regarding Liandrin's son, I'm not sure what to make of him not being Healed. Liandrin might have little to no talent with Healing, and she may be too concerned with not opening herself to others that she's never sought Healing for him or revealed him to anyone else. I suppose it could just be a serious disease that is beyond the Healing skills of the Yellow Ajah, but I think that begs the question a bit. I hadn't pondered it until this topic.

I suspect that her son is the wedge that the Black has used to convert her. His existence shames her somehow (maybe the father was a man who could channel?) or the Black have leverage where they've convinced her they will kill him if she brings him for healing.

 

I also think that the Black wanted Nynaeve. That they promised Liandrin to heal her son when she delivers her to Falme. Having "lost" Nyn (unaware that she's back for now), her backup plan is to deliver Egwene. This is the vehicle for getting the wondergirls to Falme.

 

This is an Official Elder Haman Prediction^TM and therefore has no chance of coming true.

[Agitel]

Liandrin trying to groom Nynaeve for recruitment into the Black Ajah is something that crossed my mind, too. Not only is Nynaeve incredibly powerful, but she's also vulnerable. She's not happy, she doesn't want to be there, she has this issue, she doesn't really fit in. Maybe she'd be willing to cross lines to help those she loves? All types of things that, with Liandrin's guidance and help through some difficulties, make her a candidate for radicalization. 

[DigificWriter]

Liandrin having a son is the leverage that Moiraine held over her in The Flame of Tar Valon, so there's clearly something Red Ajah rules-based that stopped the former from seeking the Healing services of the Tower for him.

[Scarloc99]

12 minutes ago, Agitel said:

I don't think we have any confirmed 800-900 year old channelers confirmed in the "present day" in the books, do we? I think 500 is the oldest we've been introduced to. Though I do think 800-900 happened during the Age of Legends.

One Seanchan channeler is 8-900 years old and there are I think Aiel who are hinted at being that kind of age. 

[Scarloc99]

11 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I suspect that her son is the wedge that the Black has used to convert her. His existence shames her somehow (maybe the father was a man who could channel?) or the Black have leverage where they've convinced her they will kill him if she brings him for healing.

 

I also think that the Black wanted Nynaeve. That they promised Liandrin to heal her son when she delivers her to Falme. Having "lost" Nyn (unaware that she's back for now), her backup plan is to deliver Egwene. This is the vehicle for getting the wondergirls to Falme.

 

This is an Official Elder Haman Prediction^TM and therefore has no chance of coming true.

I don’t think her son is held over her, I think Liandrin as in the books went to the black of her own accord, but possibly because of the actions leading to her son. Maybe she was raped, or maybe even her own father is the father. That would lead to her hatred of men. 
 

I feel that Liandrin allowing Nyn to see her son was done as a form of manipulation, to make Nyn like and trust her now she is “in on the secret”, Liandrin in the books thinks she is a master manipulator so this would be the kind of thing she would pull off. There is also a part of me still not fully convinced he is her son at all and it is an even deeper ruse, and her talking to him as if he was after Nyn left was purely to maintain the charade in case she came back. 

[Scarloc99]

7 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

One Seanchan channeler is  stated to be 8-900 years old, one of the ones the Kin are caring for, and there are I think Aiel who are hinted at being that kind of age. 

 

[Elder_Haman]

14 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Liandrin trying to groom Nynaeve for recruitment into the Black Ajah is something that crossed my mind, too. Not only is Nynaeve incredibly powerful, but she's also vulnerable. She's not happy, she doesn't want to be there, she has this issue, she doesn't really fit in. Maybe she'd be willing to cross lines to help those she loves? All types of things that, with Liandrin's guidance and help through some difficulties, make her a candidate for radicalization. 

And she's immensely powerful. So from a selfish perspective, Liandrin would be bringing the Dark a great prize.

[DigificWriter]

I think some book fans are letting their knowledge predispose them towards believing that very little of Liandrin's behavior in the first 3 episodes of Season 2 is genuine because I would argue that there's no logical reason for her to have reacted the way that she did to Nynaeve following her if it was something she (Liandrin) wanted to happen, nor is there any logical reason for her to have angrily hurled the water jug against the wall of the Arches chamber if she wasn't genuinely upset about Nynaeve failing and not coming back as expected.

Edited September 6, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Agitel]

I agree that while she is likely being duplicitous in many respects, I think those reactions were genuine. For whatever reason, whether personal shame or frustration over having to report a failure. Or even genuine emotional investment and sympathies with Nynaeve. Even if she is Black Ajah, she can still form attachments.

 

And any attachments can sour as the show progresses.

[Elder_Haman]

51 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

I think some book fans are letting their knowledge predispose them towards believing that very little of Liandrin's behavior in the first 3 episodes of Season 2 is genuine because I would argue that there's no logical reason for her to have reacted the way that she did to Nynaeve following her if it was something she (Liandrin) wanted to happen, nor is there any logical reason for her to have angrily hurled the water jug against the wall of the Arches chamber if she wasn't genuinely upset about Nynaeve failing and not coming back as expected.

Unless it was to make people observing think exactly that. 

But I don't believe Liandrin wanted Nyn dead. I believe she wanted to turn her over to the DO.

[DigificWriter]

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Unless it was to make people observing think exactly that. 

 

What "people observing"? The audience? Not everything that the writers are doing with certain characters is misdirection.

 

Liandrin can be aligned with the dark and still be genuinely pissed off by Nynaeve following her and still genuinely invested in and wanting to help Nynaeve become an Aes Sedai.

[TheDreadReader]

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Unless it was to make people observing think exactly that. 

But I don't believe Liandrin wanted Nyn dead. I believe she wanted to turn her over to the DO.

 

A slight variation might be true.   Ishy (or the black) ordered Liandrin to work on Nynaeve's block to help set in motion future book events.

 

Spoiler

Can the sul'dam force a blocked channeller to embrace the source?   I don't remember.  If you're trying to take nyn's power off the board by delivering her to the seanchan then having her unblocked would make sense. 

 

[Samt]

In the books, Reanne Corly, the eldest of the kin, is around 410 years old.  Alivia is 414.  Cadsuane starts the books at a relatively young age of 293.  I don't remember any of the wise ones being notably older than this.  LTT was approximately 400 at the time of the breaking.  

 

The expected age that a channeler can reach is dependent on his or her strength in the one power. The most powerful channelers have a potential life expectancy of around 800 years.  This scales roughly across that range so that the weakest channelers live barely longer than non-channelers and those with power levels in the middle have lifespans in the middle.  This applies to both men and women that are as powerful as possible even though the strongest men are more powerful than the strongest women.  So channelers such as Rand, Ishamael, Rahvin, Semirhage, Alivia, and Lanfear are all expected to naturally reach an age of around 800 (although a significant variation due to random chance might be not unexpected).  Of course, it's not impossible for these channelers to die much earlier in battle or from other causes.  It's also the case that the forsaken that were trapped in the bore did not age normally.  

 

Additionally, the use of the oath rod appears to cut an Aes Sedai lifespan roughly in half and make those women have the "ageless" look.  I think cutting the ageless look from the show is necessary simply because I'm not sure what it actually looks like..  The point is that people looking at an Aes Sedai aren't sure if she is 16 or 60 or anything in between.  What does that actually look like?

 

In regards to channelers not bound by the oath rod, they seem to reach physical maturity at the same time as non-channelers and then appear to stay in a physical state of young to middle aged adulthood for hundreds of years.  As they reach the end of their natural lifespan, they might begin to look old.  

 

As to the age of anyone in the show, I think it is not established.  In the books, Aes Sedai of the present age mostly avoid becoming mothers because of the difficulties of outliving your great grandchildren.  We don't ever really get an exploration of the reproductive lifecycle of channelers.  It's interesting to consider that when LTT killed his family, that may have included hundreds or even thousands of people. At that point he likely has dozens of generations of descendants.  Many of them also might have been powerful channelers.  

[Elder_Haman]

50 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

What "people observing"?

Leanna and Sheriam in the testing chamber observed her performance.

And wanting Nynaeve to think that she'd uncovered something of incredible value.

 

But ultimately, I agree with you. I don't think she's trying to kill Nyn. I just think she intends to use Nyn for her own purposes.

[DigificWriter]

13 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Leanna and Sheriam in the testing chamber observed her performance

 

No, they didn't.

 

Liandrin doesn't throw the jug at the wall until both Leane and Sheriam have left the chamber.

[king of nowhere]

I got the impression that liandrin was trying to get nynaeve killed in an accident - that would not implicate her -, so that the light would lose a powerful channeler. if the black ajah was thinking to recruit her, they failed to understand nynaeve.

 

as for ages, our media conveniently forgets that in the past it was normal for girls to start having childrens in their teens. so liandrin can be in her 70s and have a son in his late 50s or early 60s - maybe made before coming to the tower - that looks older due to illness.

but yeah, since we all conveniently forget how early people had children in the past, i doubt they're using it as an explanation.

 

i wonder how much all those "it's implied" about character ages are reliable.

 

 

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

I think some book fans are letting their knowledge predispose them towards believing that very little of Liandrin's behavior in the first 3 episodes of Season 2 is genuine because I would argue that there's no logical reason for her to have reacted the way that she did to Nynaeve following her if it was something she (Liandrin) wanted to happen, nor is there any logical reason for her to have angrily hurled the water jug against the wall of the Arches chamber if she wasn't genuinely upset about Nynaeve failing and not coming back as expected.

I am happy to come along for the ride but if I am being asked to predict the future of the show then that will be based on the information I have from the books because the show itself right now is not giving much away. It should not be underestimated just how devious and convoluted darkfriend plans can be, especially if masterminded by one of the forsaken. She may have been angry because Nyn’s death impacts her position now in the white tower which impacts plans that are being put in place. It is also interesting given that on that scene, if the books are being followed, there are in fact 2 darkfriends watching over the ceremony so she may have also just been lambasted by someone standing higher then her in the black ajah in being told that Sheriam won’t forget this failure. 

[Storeebooq]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

In the books, Reanne Corly, the eldest of the kin, is around 410 years old.  Alivia is 414.  Cadsuane starts the books at a relatively young age of 293.  I don't remember any of the wise ones being notably older than this.  LTT was approximately 400 at the time of the breaking.  

 

The expected age that a channeler can reach is dependent on his or her strength in the one power. The most powerful channelers have a potential life expectancy of around 800 years.  This scales roughly across that range so that the weakest channelers live barely longer than non-channelers and those with power levels in the middle have lifespans in the middle.  This applies to both men and women that are as powerful as possible even though the strongest men are more powerful than the strongest women.  So channelers such as Rand, Ishamael, Rahvin, Semirhage, Alivia, and Lanfear are all expected to naturally reach an age of around 800 (although a significant variation due to random chance might be not unexpected).  Of course, it's not impossible for these channelers to die much earlier in battle or from other causes.  It's also the case that the forsaken that were trapped in the bore did not age normally.  

 

Additionally, the use of the oath rod appears to cut an Aes Sedai lifespan roughly in half and make those women have the "ageless" look.  I think cutting the ageless look from the show is necessary simply because I'm not sure what it actually looks like..  The point is that people looking at an Aes Sedai aren't sure if she is 16 or 60 or anything in between.  What does that actually look like?

 

In regards to channelers not bound by the oath rod, they seem to reach physical maturity at the same time as non-channelers and then appear to stay in a physical state of young to middle aged adulthood for hundreds of years.  As they reach the end of their natural lifespan, they might begin to look old.  

 

As to the age of anyone in the show, I think it is not established.  In the books, Aes Sedai of the present age mostly avoid becoming mothers because of the difficulties of outliving your great grandchildren.  We don't ever really get an exploration of the reproductive lifecycle of channelers.  It's interesting to consider that when LTT killed his family, that may have included hundreds or even thousands of people. At that point he likely has dozens of generations of descendants.  Many of them also might have been powerful channelers.  

To actually add to what you're saying, Reanne Corly was the eldest in the Knitting circle, it was mentioned by Nyn and others that the Kin had reported that Aloisia Nemosni was 600 and the oldest known member of the Kin, living in Tear. Pulled data from the wiki

 

 

[Samt]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

I am happy to come along for the ride but if I am being asked to predict the future of the show then that will be based on the information I have from the books because the show itself right now is not giving much away. It should not be underestimated just how devious and convoluted darkfriend plans can be, especially if masterminded by one of the forsaken. She may have been angry because Nyn’s death impacts her position now in the white tower which impacts plans that are being put in place. It is also interesting given that on that scene, if the books are being followed, there are in fact 2 darkfriends watching over the ceremony so she may have also just been lambasted by someone standing higher then her in the black ajah in being told that Sheriam won’t forget this failure. 

Spoiler

If we're following the books, Liandrin and Sheriam aren't in any of the same hearts, so Liandrin doesn't know Sheriam is black ajah (or vice versa).