Aes Sedai aging

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

No, they didn't.

 

Liandrin doesn't throw the jug at the wall until both Leane and Sheriam have left the chamber.

My bad. I'll have to watch again. I remember it differently.

[Scarloc99]

53 minutes ago, Samt said:

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If we're following the books, Liandrin and Sheriam aren't in any of the same hearts, so Liandrin doesn't know Sheriam is black ajah (or vice versa).  

 

Spoiler

Sheriam did seem to have more information then most though. Mainly because she acted as chief recruiter given her role. When she is caught by Egwene she gives up a load of names all of which are in the book so she clearly knows more then just 3 

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Samt]

Just now, Scarloc99 said:

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Sheriam did seem to have more information then most though. Mainly because she acted as chief recruiter given her role. When she is caught by Egwene she gives up a load of names all of which are in the book so she clearly knows more then just 3 

 

The heart system actually means everyone know 6 other members.  But you might be right that Sheriam knows even more.  

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Reading this thread triggered a couple of questions, not necessarily on topic but I wanted to express them anyway. First regarding liandrin and her (and the forces she represents) intentions with nyneave…I was wondering if it might be similar to attacks from the shadow in the books, which gave me the impression that it was basically a test of some sort to see what they’re up against. Meaning that if they actually managed to kill the target, that would be great, but learning how their adversaries react and getting an idea of their strength is the greater motive. The other thing that occurred to me based on liandrins elderly son is the nature of healing as a whole. We know that the most skilled healers can significantly turn a dire situation into a miraculous outcome. But what does that mean for the elderly and conditions of old age? Clearly the general population has a limited life span, and at some point in the aging process the properties of healing no longer apply otherwise we’d see regular folks who have the luxury of access to aes sedai healers living much longer lives. Or am I missing something?

Edited September 7, 2023 by Lightfriendsocialmistress

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Reading this thread triggered a couple of questions, not necessarily on topic but I wanted to express them anyway. First regarding liandrin and her (and the forces she represents) intentions with nyneave…I was wondering if it might be similar to attacks from the shadow in the books, which gave me the impression that it was basically a test of some sort to see what they’re up against. Meaning that if they actually managed to kill the target, that would be great, but learning how their adversaries react and getting an idea of their strength is the greater motive. The other thing that occurred to me based on liandrins elderly son is the nature of healing as a whole. We know that the most skilled healers can significantly turn a dire situation into a miraculous outcome. But what does that mean for the elderly and conditions of old age? Clearly the general population has a limited life span, and at some point in the aging process the properties of healing no longer apply otherwise we’d see regular folks who have the luxury of access to aes sedai healers living much longer lives. Or am I missing something?

The one power can't heal the effects of Aging, and the old fashioned Aes Sedai way of healing (pre the Ashaman, I forget his name, showing that healing can be targeted at a very particular thing), takes alot of energy from the person being healed, so much so that it can in itself kill the patient. So an old person being "healed" from a heart attack or other old age disease is just as likely to then die from the effects of the healing. We don't know what the new style healing will allow, maybe it will allow longer life amongst non channellers. But the Age Disparity is something I find fascinating anyway, in the Age Of Legends non Channellers, simply as a side effect of living much much shorter lives are I imagine a second rate class of citizen, they don't have positions of power, they are not the great thinkers or great scientific minds because there are always those who have the one power who are just more experienced and have been around longer. I wonder if the Aiel Tradition came about as non channellers tried to find some value in society.

[DigificWriter]

I'm not convinced that Liandrin's son was actually as physically aged as he appeared, but that seems to be a minority point-of-view.

[Agitel]

23 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

I'm not convinced that Liandrin's son was actually as physically aged as he appeared, but that seems to be a minority point-of-view.

 

My read is that he's at least 50+ and aged poorly due to illness, unless they're reconning Liandrin to be even older than what I think was previously stated. I don't think he's 20/30/40 and has some magical disease that aged him up. 

 

I think they picked someone so old to really strike home the effects of the longer lifespans, but on the flip side, Liandrin herself isn't even old enough in the show lore to justify someone looking that old, or at least it's a stretch.

 

I suppose the only way I think it'd be some channeling induced affliction is if the Black Ajah is somehow responsible for it and is somehow using it to keep a hold on her, and I'm open to something coming back up, but my read is it was just done for effect and the age discrepancy won't be a plot point.

[DigificWriter]

Going off the evidence-based presumption that, like Show!Moiraine, Show!Liandrin is in her 70s, I'd say that her son is, at most, pushing mid-60s and suffers from some kind of pain-causing condition that's made him physically waste away, especially since she wasn't aware that the crimsonthorn draught wasn't actually easing his pain the way that she thought it was.

[Storeebooq]

8 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

The one power can't heal the effects of Aging, and the old fashioned Aes Sedai way of healing (pre the Ashaman, I forget his name, showing that healing can be targeted at a very particular thing), takes alot of energy from the person being healed, so much so that it can in itself kill the patient. So an old person being "healed" from a heart attack or other old age disease is just as likely to then die from the effects of the healing. We don't know what the new style healing will allow, maybe it will allow longer life amongst non channellers. But the Age Disparity is something I find fascinating anyway, in the Age Of Legends non Channellers, simply as a side effect of living much much shorter lives are I imagine a second rate class of citizen, they don't have positions of power, they are not the great thinkers or great scientific minds because there are always those who have the one power who are just more experienced and have been around longer. I wonder if the Aiel Tradition came about as non channellers tried to find some value in society.

If I remember correctly, during the Age of Legends the average life expectancy of non-Aes Sedai was still high, probably around 120+. 

Spoiler

This is based on the POV of one of Rand's past lives when he went through the columns in Rhuidian, as one of the Age of Legends Aeil was in his 60's and considered just reaching the prime of his life. Also Graendal mentions healing as restoration practices during AoL to extend folks' lives. 

 

[Scarloc99]

On 9/7/2023 at 7:58 PM, Storeebooq said:

If I remember correctly, during the Age of Legends the average life expectancy of non-Aes Sedai was still high, probably around 120+. 

  Hide contents

This is based on the POV of one of Rand's past lives when he went through the columns in Rhuidian, as one of the Age of Legends Aeil was in his 60's and considered just reaching the prime of his life. Also Graendal mentions healing as restoration practices during AoL to extend folks' lives. 

 

That is still short considering that Aes Sedai lived many many many hundreds of years. That, combined with the power being so important to society and what we see from the flashbacks strongly suggests that non channellers really had a low position in society in general. So to become Airl was to get some respect back. 

[DigificWriter]

So it looks like Episode 4 put the kibosh on the idea of Show!Liandrin being contemporaries with (and therefore around the same age as) Moiraine, Siuan, and Alanna, which makes me wonder why she (Liandrin) felt familiar enough with Moiraine that she could caress her (Moiraine's) face without her (Moiraine) objecting.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 9/7/2023 at 5:36 AM, DigificWriter said:

him physically waste away,

Could it be the wasting effect of being a male channeler?

[DigificWriter]

11 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Could it be the wasting effect of being a male channeler?

 

I don't think her son is a channeler; he's just old.

 

I really wanted Show!Liandrin to be around the same age as Alanna, Moiraine, and Siuan because then her and Moiraine being "Pillowfriends" would have a ready explanation.

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I don't think her son is a channeler; he's just old.

 

I really wanted Show!Liandrin to be around the same age as Alanna, Moiraine, and Siuan because then her and Moiraine being "Pillowfriends" would have a ready explanation.

Maybe a forbidden romance between teacher and student.

[DigificWriter]

7 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Maybe a forbidden romance between teacher and student.

 

Hmm.

 

I don't know if I can personally picture either Show!Moiraine or Show!Liandrin engaging in an imbalanced romantic affair, but without them being contemporaries, there aren't a lot of options left when it comes to justifying the level of intimacy that Liandrin caressing Moiraine's cheek in Season 1 implies.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

18 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I don't think her son is a channeler; he's just old.

 

I really wanted Show!Liandrin to be around the same age as Alanna, Moiraine, and Siuan because then her and Moiraine being "Pillowfriends" would have a ready explanation.

Yeah, you are correct. I realize now that he would have died and worse a long time ago if his condition was caused by being able to channel. 

 

I’m with you in terms of the ages of the women you mentioned. Do you have any particular reasons why you don’t think they are contemporaries age wise? I’m not quite sure how to determine exactly how old they are, but moiraine has an old younger sister and liandrin has an old son. Alanna and siuan so far are harder to gauge but they at least seem to have been in a similar timeline to the other two in terms of their progression in the tower?

 

 I have only read new spring once so far, but next time I read I will definitely be paying attention to that aspect. Not that it will necessarily pertain to the show, but I’m still curious. 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Lightfriendsocialmistress

[DigificWriter]

I already knew from just general spoilers that Moiraine and Siuan were contemporaries, but the show also made that clear given their romantic relationship and their collaboration on the hunt for the Dragon Reborn.

 

For Show!Alanna, we know that she was a contemporary of Moiraine's (and therefore Siuan's) because of her asking Moiraine about Jenny the Irish Wolfhound, and then again because of the comment she made to Lan in this most recent episode about Moiraine suddenly changing 20 years earlier.

 

I had been basing my assumption about Show!Liandrin being Show!Moiraine's contemporary off of the aforementioned intimate face touch from Season 1 and my general knowledge about the concept of "Pillowfriends", but this most recent episode put the kibosh on that 'contemporaries' theory and so now I'm desperately wanting to know why said moment happened without Moiraine objecting.

Edited September 10, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Scarloc99]

10 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Yeah, you are correct. I realize now that he would have died and worse a long time ago if his condition was caused by being able to channel. 

 

I’m with you in terms of the ages of the women you mentioned. Do you have any particular reasons why you don’t think they are contemporaries age wise? I’m not quite sure how to determine exactly how old they are, but moiraine has an old younger sister and liandrin has an old son. Alanna and siuan so far are harder to gauge but they at least seem to have been in a similar timeline to the other two in terms of their progression in the tower?

 

 I have only read new spring once so far, but next time I read I will definitely be paying attention to that aspect. Not that it will necessarily pertain to the show, but I’m still curious. 

In the books Liandrin is in her 30's or 40's and Moraine is much much older, in the show Liandrin said her son was 70 or 80 so she would have to be 84+ 

but her vagueness at how old her son is also makes me lean more into the idea that he is not her son at all. The whole point of that entire journey through the tower, making Nynaeve follow her, was to show her the route out that she would then be able to ambush her on later on when her plan kicked in proper. She needed a valid reason, something to be heading towards, something to make Nyn trust her, and what better then a "son" she is trying to care for, a son who is not that at all, but some random ,an she is using for her own aims. 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

I already knew from just general spoilers that Moiraine and Siuan were contemporaries, but the show also made that clear given their romantic relationship and their collaboration on the hunt for the Dragon Reborn.

 

For Show!Alanna, we know that she was a contemporary of Moiraine's (and therefore Siuan's) because of her asking Moiraine about Jenny the Irish Wolfhound, and then again because of the comment she made to Lan in this most recent episode about Moiraine suddenly changing 20 years earlier.

 

I had been basing my assumption about Show!Liandrin being Show!Moiraine's contemporary off of the aforementioned intimate face touch from Season 1 and my general knowledge about the concept of "Pillowfriends", but this most recent episode put the kibosh on that 'contemporaries' theory and so now I'm desperately wanting to know why said moment happened without Moiraine objecting.

You are reading alot into little remarks when Alanna could have spotted a change in Morraine and be 70 years older then her, tower hierarchies and politics are on one hand complicated but on the other very very simple, the main thing that matters is strength in the one power. In the books Elayne becomes Aes Sedai and instantly, because she is stronger in the one power, is able to start commanding, not suggesting, not advising but actually commanding sisters who are 1-200 years older then her. So Assuming that different sisters are "contemporary" just because of how they interact is a massive mistake. The moment an accepted comes to the shawl she is a sister and largely is treated as such from that day forward, there is no "apprenticeship, or proving yourself period" that is what being a novice and accepted is for. 

I also think you read a lot into the Liandrin Moraine scene and walked away misunderstanding what that scene was about. You fixated on the idea of "pillow friends" when no one I know took that from that scene at all. 

[DigificWriter]

@Scarloc99 In the conversation with Moiraine where she brings up Jenny, Alanna says "when we were Novices" (emphasis mine).

 

Re: Moiraine and Liandrin, what was your interpretation of the face touch?

 

Because it's not normal behavior for a person to caress another person's face like that, especially without objection, if there's not a previously existing intimacy between them.

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Scarloc99]

Just now, DigificWriter said:

@Scarloc99 In the conversation with Moiraine where she brings up Jenny, Alanna says "when we were Novices" (emphasis mine).

 

Re: Moiraine and Liandrin, what was your interpretation of the face touch?

 

Because it's not normal behavior for a person to caress another person's face like that, especially without objection, unless there's a previously existing intimacy between them.

 

I mean, it was pretty creepy and typical "bad character threatening" vibes about it, which, given we know Liandrin is a bad character fits into type. It was not an intimate stroke at all. 

I was also just trying to point out that in the tower age has nothing to do with who is friends with who, or who is above who or can command who. It is a pretty key aspect for when they meet other groups of channellers and it is pointed out multiple times that the practice of someone who might have 300 years experience being regularly ignored when she gives advice or suggests a course of action just because she is weaker in the power is just dumb, and we see it, over and over, weak sisters who have very valid and good suggestions being reduced to just pouring the tea, sitting in the corner and not being allowed to say a word even in the heart of the white tower. 

[DigificWriter]

@Scarloc99 I really don't get how you get intimidation out of that face touch when Moiraine doesn't in any way react negatively to it.

 

 

 

 

[Scarloc99]

9 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

@Scarloc99 I really don't get how you get intimidation out of that face touch when Moiraine doesn't in any way react negatively to it.

 

 

 

 

She is trying to intimidate, Morraine just no sells it like a badd ass. 

[DigificWriter]

@Scarloc99 Agree to disagree.

 

🙂

 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Regarding the liandrin face caress, if I was on the receiving end of such a thing from anyone besides my SO or a beloved family member, I’d be too shocked, confused and uncomfortable to respond. But I’m an introvert and not sophisticated in the ways of manipulation and scheming and power moves.