Warning Book Spoilers:- Where the tv show might go given all we know about the character arcs.

[Jaysen Gore]

29 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I don't watch the trailers but from a simple storytelling perspective it would make sense to switch it up.  Rand really hasn't earned anything yet and it wouldn't make sense to give him a big victory against HLT right before a big fight with Ishy, at least not in the way the show has been telling the story.

The bigger potential risk with this is the on-going speculation that aside from sealing the DO's prison, Rand isn't going to get any big wins - they will go to everyone else. Even in the book they end up asking him why he still walks around with a sword, and so they may just be doing away with it so the greatest channeller of the age doesn't also end up as one of the greatest swordsmen of the age. 

 

On one hand, it fundamentally alters the story of the Wheel of Time, but on the other, it really doesn't.  Maybe the absolute climax of the entire series shows that Rand is not the only, but simply one equal among many others.  A woman who struggles to heal the world, a hero who with every breath denies being a hero, etc, etc.

 

If they don't want to do that, though, having Lan take this fight, and then have Rand do all his sword learning through the fencing in the Waste can close that gap.

[Jaysen Gore]

Oh, and here's another jarring thought - there is really nothing significant plot wise that would prevent the climactic catfight at the end of Fires of Heaven being the actual end of those two characters in Amazon Prime's Wheel of Time. Season 4 Episode 8. Half way mark of the series, and snip.

 

[Jaysen Gore]

And, just to see if I can get it straight in my head, the drop to 8 Forsaken makes it easier to create personal animus for our heroes, but we're missing some. Let's see:

Rand - Ishamael (Champions of Light and Dark)

Moiraine - Lanfear (a slit throat will do that)

Nynaeve - Moghedien (every good housewife hates spiders)

Egwene - Graendal (Servant of all versus slave master)

Lan - Demandred (it has to happen, doesn't it?)

Elayne - Rahvin (putting Rahvin behind the Camelyn Civil War)

Mat - Semirhage ( if she's Voice for Tuon and in charge of the Gray Man, there you go)

Perrin - Sammael  (this is the weakest link, but tie Sammael to the Whitecloaks, and it all fits)

 

Nice neat, personal 1 on 1's between our heroes and the Forsaken. And the only ones that don't directly fit the books are Elayne and Perrin's.  4 men and 4 women on both sides, and all of the heroes of the light become more or less equal in their accomplishments

[mogi68]

6 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

 Especially if Min and Mat meet Aludra in a stable on the road to Cairihien, and that Falme fortress stands in for the Stone of Tear.

 

 

This puzzles me the most about the end of the season, because there was a mention of the Stone of Tear in season

1.  Surely Callandor is not in Falme, right? Will they move the capture of Tear to another point of the story? Or will it take place in S3? So many questions

[Jaysen Gore]

4 hours ago, mogi68 said:

 

This puzzles me the most about the end of the season, because there was a mention of the Stone of Tear in season

1.  Surely Callandor is not in Falme, right? Will they move the capture of Tear to another point of the story? Or will it take place in S3? So many questions

My working assumption is that Bayle sails them from Falme to Tear, and the season ends with Rand looking up at the Stone. I don't know if Callandor exists yet.

[notpropaganda73]

I think while Mat has been missing from S2 so far, he is one character that I think the show has done well from S1 (last couple episode crapshoot aside). The whole making him "darker", the backstory change, Ishy saying he was "born to be mine" or whatever he said, Min's vision of him appearing to stab Rand - I think it's all playing up on Mat being someone who runs away from being a hero much like he is in the books, but really playing hard on it. I think Rand's defence of Mat in episode 7 I think it was of S1 (whenever that horrific "love triangle" argument happened between Rand, Perrin & Egwene with Nynaeve), where everyone else was criticising him but Rand defended him and, in my opinion, told the audience who Mat really is and what we will ultimately see from him. 

 

The arc means that he will probably do something the audience finds awful, likely through inaction or running away, before he comes back around and becoming the Mat we all know from the books. 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I think while Mat has been missing from S2 so far, he is one character that I think the show has done well from S1 (last couple episode crapshoot aside). The whole making him "darker", the backstory change, Ishy saying he was "born to be mine" or whatever he said, Min's vision of him appearing to stab Rand - I think it's all playing up on Mat being someone who runs away from being a hero much like he is in the books, but really playing hard on it. I think Rand's defence of Mat in episode 7 I think it was of S1 (whenever that horrific "love triangle" argument happened between Rand, Perrin & Egwene with Nynaeve), where everyone else was criticising him but Rand defended him and, in my opinion, told the audience who Mat really is and what we will ultimately see from him. 

 

The arc means that he will probably do something the audience finds awful, likely through inaction or running away, before he comes back around and becoming the Mat we all know from the books. 

The WOT writers again subverting expectations to give viewers a bit of a twist moment. That is what makes for good TV. 

[Finnssss22]

On 9/16/2023 at 3:10 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

And, just to see if I can get it straight in my head, the drop to 8 Forsaken makes it easier to create personal animus for our heroes, but we're missing some. Let's see:

Rand - Ishamael (Champions of Light and Dark)

Moiraine - Lanfear (a slit throat will do that)

Nynaeve - Moghedien (every good housewife hates spiders)

Egwene - Graendal (Servant of all versus slave master)

Lan - Demandred (it has to happen, doesn't it?)

Elayne - Rahvin (putting Rahvin behind the Camelyn Civil War)

Mat - Semirhage ( if she's Voice for Tuon and in charge of the Gray Man, there you go)

Perrin - Sammael  (this is the weakest link, but tie Sammael to the Whitecloaks, and it all fits)

 

Nice neat, personal 1 on 1's between our heroes and the Forsaken. And the only ones that don't directly fit the books are Elayne and Perrin's.  4 men and 4 women on both sides, and all of the heroes of the light become more or less equal in their accomplishments

 

Semirhage is out, now that we know for sure we have Graendal and Moggy, there was no other clearly female figurine in s1e5, Ishy has already replaced her as Suroth's Truth Speaker, Lanfear is already taking on her cruelty and colour choices.

We now have 6 of the 8 figurines identified

Ishy

Lanfear

Moggy (named and there was a figuring with spiderweb designs on dress)

Graeny (named and the figurine with clearly big boobs leaves no doubt lol)

Asmodean (Figurine with a string instrument) 

Sammy (Short figurine with a scarred face)

7th is clearly male

The last one is the fuzziest and hardest to make out, could be male or female but it's most likely male due to Lanfear's conversation with Ishy. It seems pretty clear she named the females and then grouped all the remaining as the boys.

My money for #7 is of course Demandred

#8 is a lot tougher to guess and probably easier to guess who it isn't, it's probably not Bath which leaves Be'lal, Aggy or Rahvin.

 

[Finnssss22]

23 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

The WOT writers again subverting expectations to give viewers a bit of a twist moment. That is what makes for good TV. 

Let's also remember, Mat was pretty much an unlikable dick for the first 2 books lol

The show not featuring that much of him for the first 2 seasons isn't exactly a stretch from the books.

[Mirefox]

34 minutes ago, Finnssss22 said:

Let's also remember, Mat was pretty much an unlikable dick for the first 2 books lol

The show not featuring that much of him for the first 2 seasons isn't exactly a stretch from the books.

That was because he was cursed, though.  Mat in the books was not dark, was not a coward, did not come from a broken, alcoholic home, wasn’t a thief, wasn’t born to the Forsaken, wouldn’t leave his friends in their time of need, etc.  The blueprint for the character was right there in the books but the show is agenda-driven rather than fidelity-driven.  They had the means to follow the book Mat to the letter and still have their dark, edgy character thanks to the dagger.

[nsmallw]

2 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

Semirhage is out, now that we know for sure we have Graendal and Moggy, there was no other clearly female figurine in s1e5, Ishy has already replaced her as Suroth's Truth Speaker, Lanfear is already taking on her cruelty and colour choices.

We now have 6 of the 8 figurines identified

Ishy

Lanfear

Moggy (named and there was a figuring with spiderweb designs on dress)

Graeny (named and the figurine with clearly big boobs leaves no doubt lol)

Asmodean (Figurine with a string instrument) 

Sammy (Short figurine with a scarred face)

7th is clearly male

The last one is the fuzziest and hardest to make out, could be male or female but it's most likely male due to Lanfear's conversation with Ishy. It seems pretty clear she named the females and then grouped all the remaining as the boys.

My money for #7 is of course Demandred

#8 is a lot tougher to guess and probably easier to guess who it isn't, it's probably not Bath which leaves Be'lal, Aggy or Rahvin.

 

Noticed now Lanfear pretty much dissed all the other Forsaken, especially "the boys".  I hope the show doesn't take that tack, especially if Ishy is knocked off this season.  We need all of the Forsaken to be formidable.

[Scarloc99]

11 hours ago, nsmallw said:

Noticed now Lanfear pretty much dissed all the other Forsaken, especially "the boys".  I hope the show doesn't take that tack, especially if Ishy is knocked off this season.  We need all of the Forsaken to be formidable.

This is pretty much on brand for all the forsaken from the books, we are constantly seeing from there internal POV that they look down on each other, there is always a comment about there strengths, but with a vey big "but" attached. 

[Finnssss22]

15 hours ago, Mirefox said:

That was because he was cursed, though.  Mat in the books was not dark, was not a coward, did not come from a broken, alcoholic home, wasn’t a thief, wasn’t born to the Forsaken, wouldn’t leave his friends in their time of need, etc.  The blueprint for the character was right there in the books but the show is agenda-driven rather than fidelity-driven.  They had the means to follow the book Mat to the letter and still have their dark, edgy character thanks to the dagger.

 

To be fair, the leaving his friends thing was never their intended path with him, it was a forced situation with the actor.

The broken home thing is definitely new.

I don't know where you got the he wasn't a thief thing, he absolutely was. If anything went missing in the Two Rivers, Mat was immediately the first suspect and he freaking stole the Dagger in the first place lol

The born to a Forsaken thing is obviously unreliable narrator. Ishy thinks Mat is corrupted just like he thinks Perrin will succumb to the Wolf and we both know Perrin fights losing himself to the Wolf for the vast majority of the series. Just because he thinks Mat is corrupted, it doesn't make it true.

Mat talks like a coward all the time in the books...no way I'm getting involved in someone else's fight or saving the girls from trouble, not this guy, I'm going the opposite way mark my words, they can get out of it themselves...very next chapter there's Mat not only fighting to save someone's life, he's leading the charge.

 

The reality is the only real changes are his harder home life and the out of the writers hands leaving his friends bit.

Anything else is like trying to get water from a stone and more about being a hater than a critic.

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

To be fair, the leaving his friends thing was never their intended path with him, it was a forced situation with the actor.

The broken home thing is definitely new.

I don't know where you got the he wasn't a thief thing, he absolutely was. If anything went missing in the Two Rivers, Mat was immediately the first suspect and he freaking stole the Dagger in the first place lol

The born to a Forsaken thing is obviously unreliable narrator. Ishy thinks Mat is corrupted just like he thinks Perrin will succumb to the Wolf and we both know Perrin fights losing himself to the Wolf for the vast majority of the series. Just because he thinks Mat is corrupted, it doesn't make it true.

Mat talks like a coward all the time in the books...no way I'm getting involved in someone else's fight or saving the girls from trouble, not this guy, I'm going the opposite way mark my words, they can get out of it themselves...very next chapter there's Mat not only fighting to save someone's life, he's leading the charge.

 

The reality is the only real changes are his harder home life and the out of the writers hands leaving his friends bit.

Anything else is like trying to get water from a stone and more about being a hater than a critic.

It also takes Mat a long time in the books to willingly go and be the hero, most of the time him being a coward ends up putting him where he needs to be to help the light win. Most of his decisions all the way up to the last few books are him trying to run away, even the impressive tactical defeats of the Seanchan are so he can get the red band to safety and away from any real battles. 

[Windigo]

On 9/6/2023 at 5:58 AM, Scarloc99 said:

Moraine, yes she absolutely needs to go through the door and the producers and writers should be brave enough to write her off the show for a while, maybe a season, then only show her surviving in the Finn realm when Lanfer is saved from it, but show her weak and have Moridin say something like "she doesn't have long left" 

Then nothing more until the letter is read and we get another flash to her still alive and then can get frustrated at Matt and Thom for not rushing to rescue her sooner. 

As fast as they are moving this could be done in a a few episodes, and nothing says all of her time "gone" needs to be off screen. It could also be an end to a season and then another time jump. 

[Samt]

On 9/6/2023 at 3:58 AM, Scarloc99 said:

Moraine, yes she absolutely needs to go through the door and the producers and writers should be brave enough to write her off the show for a while, maybe a season, then only show her surviving in the Finn realm when Lanfer is saved from it, but show her weak and have Moridin say something like "she doesn't have long left" 

Then nothing more until the letter is read and we get another flash to her still alive and then can get frustrated at Matt and Thom for not rushing to rescue her sooner. 

What letter?  Moiraine doesn't know Thom Merrilin exists.  It seems likely to me that they have cut the tower of Genji, the foxes, and the snakes entirely.  If it does happen, it's not going to be 3 men saving Moiraine.  

[Windigo]

On 9/16/2023 at 2:03 AM, Finnssss22 said:

It just doesn't make sense to me that Verin is bringing all this heat down on Liandrin if they're playing for the same side and Liandrin was acting on Ishy's orders.

Throughout the books the Black Ajah and other dark friends, often influenced by different Forsaken worked against each other. The entire organization of the BA where only a few know who is BA is set up to have conflicting missions. The Forsaken and all of the Shadow's groups are encouraged to compete and betray each other to win and be on top. One of the issues I have with the show having Ishy being more involved with the Seanchan is that it kind of defeats his I am the the favored chosen, and above the petty fighting and battles between the other forsaken, who are more interested in things like power and revenge.

[Finnssss22]

8 hours ago, Windigo said:

Throughout the books the Black Ajah and other dark friends, often influenced by different Forsaken worked against each other. The entire organization of the BA where only a few know who is BA is set up to have conflicting missions. The Forsaken and all of the Shadow's groups are encouraged to compete and betray each other to win and be on top. One of the issues I have with the show having Ishy being more involved with the Seanchan is that it kind of defeats his I am the the favored chosen, and above the petty fighting and battles between the other forsaken, who are more interested in things like power and revenge.

 

Oh for sure, I get that, it was definitely a thing in the books. In this particular case, it just feels like it's more than that or less of that depending on how you look at it. We'll see 😉

 

On another note, isn't it amazing what happens when you take a 2 dimensional villain like Liandrin in the books and humanise them. How much more you're willing to invest in that character.

Of course shout out to Fleetwood for absolutely killing it as well. 

[Windigo]

9 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

On another note, isn't it amazing what happens when you take a 2 dimensional villain like Liandrin in the books and humanize them. How much more you're willing to invest in that character.

Of course shout out to Fleetwood for absolutely killing it as well. 

It is, but I am not sure that Liandrin is as humanized as she appears, I do not trust any of her interactions with Nynaeve, and am inclined to believe they are all set up and manipulation.
It still  makes her a fascinating "bad guy". 

RJ like so many did at the time wrote flat bad guys, though at the time he included much more back story and motivations than many fantasy villain's. In later books he did round out and humanize some of them, times had changed and it was more acceptable to have grey areas not just good/evil. 

 

[Finnssss22]

On 9/20/2023 at 3:47 PM, Windigo said:

Throughout the books the Black Ajah and other dark friends, often influenced by different Forsaken worked against each other. The entire organization of the BA where only a few know who is BA is set up to have conflicting missions. The Forsaken and all of the Shadow's groups are encouraged to compete and betray each other to win and be on top. One of the issues I have with the show having Ishy being more involved with the Seanchan is that it kind of defeats his I am the the favored chosen, and above the petty fighting and battles between the other forsaken, who are more interested in things like power and revenge.

 

I forgot to mention that in a lot of ways Ishamael being with the Seanchan is actually rather fitting as he is the reason they exist in the first place.

[notpropaganda73]

Does anyone else feel that we may finally see the LTT / Ishy prologue as a cold open to episode 8, and that will act as a mirror to Rand defeating Ishy at Falme by pulling too much of the Power, only for Mat to save him by stabbing him (fulfilling Min's vision)? 

 

Really this idea has been triggered by Logain warning Rand about taking on too much of it in the last episode. 

 

Other alternative for Min's vision is 1) Ishy tricks or 2) flickerflicker

[denise_42]

could some one tell me what does it mean  if Alanna does Bond with Rand can she control him or is it just so she knows where he is could someone explain what the bond is please.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

42 minutes ago, denise_42 said:

could some one tell me what does it mean  if Alanna does Bond with Rand can she control him or is it just so she knows where he is could someone explain what the bond is please.

If it follows the book's lore, will stick it in a spoiler in case anyone wants not to know,

Spoiler

the warder bond can be used to compel the warder, but if he channel this does not work. Though in the book, she only found this out after she bonded him. It should give Rand all the benefits a Warder has - increased endurance, ability to resist Myrddrals' powers, ability to detect shadowspawn, etc, - and would allow them to feel each others emotions and whereabouts (direction and distance), if the bond is not masked, in which case everything would be muted, not quite turned off like the shows version.

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[Finnssss22]

12 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

If it follows the book's lore, will stick it in a spoiler in case anyone wants not to know,

  Hide contents

the warder bond can be used to compel the warder, but if he channel this does not work. Though in the book, she only found this out after she bonded him. It should give Rand all the benefits a Warder has - increased endurance, ability to resist Myrddrals' powers, ability to detect shadowspawn, etc, - and would allow them to feel each others emotions and whereabouts (direction and distance), if the bond is not masked, in which case everything would be muted, not quite turned off like the shows version.

 

Spoiler

Whether the one bonded can channel or not doesn't matter, it's whether the one being bonded is stronger in the Power or not.

In general the average male channeler is stronger than the average female channeler but there are still plenty of men weaker than some of the women.

Rand was so far above Alanna in the Power that her attempt at compelling him was like a fly buzzing by his ear lol

 

[Jaysen Gore]

Okay, now that I’ve had time to digest where we are now, and inspired by the LOTR discussion in another thread to look at the rate of adaptation, here’s what I think we’re faced with:

 

TLDR: We’re about to lose fully ½ of the content of Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time.

 

Based on my book versions:

Page Count: (529 + 442+ 378 = 1349 pages for LOTR) and (657+ 577+ 577 = 1811 for EOTW, GH, TDR)

Run time (12 hours for LOTR extended, 16 for WoT)

We were at 1.874 pages per minute for LOTR and are at 1.886 pages per minute for WoT, which is close, and can be used to project.

At that rate, adapting WoT's 10,173 pages would require 90 hours of television in total, of which we’ve already got 16.  But we’ve only got 48 hours left.

So, assuming 48 remaining hours of TV, they need to lose 2,929 pages of content, or about 5 entire books, without ANY additions to fit everything in.

 

But if you add more Rafe created stuff in, you have to lose more. Let’s say they add an hour of fresh content per season, which means they need to lose another 679 pages of Jordan / Sanderson content – another book – from the run of the series.

 

So now we come to the tough question - how to lose 6 books worth of material:

 

Easy Cuts – the slog main plots – plot points must happen, but don’t need to take long:

Faile’s kidnapping

Mat with Tylin and Tuon

Egwene at Salidar

 

Easy Cuts – side plots - can lose without impacting character arcs or plot

Sea Folk and the Bowl of the Winds (substitute Callandor / Male A’dam)

Shara (substitute Black Tower corruption)
Far Madding

Be’lal, Bathamel, Aginor

Elayne and Nynaeve with the Circus

Morgase’s Journey

Thom Merrilin (Lan protects the cave)

Aran’gar / Osan’gar (hard, confusing, and politically sensitive)

 

Medium Cuts – the Forsaken plot consolidation:

Rahvin in Camelyn + Sammael in Illian (only getting 1)

Demandred in Shara and Taim with the Black Tower (only getting 1)

Mesaana in the Tower or Semirhage with the Seanchan (only one’s in the show, but which one?)

 

Medium Cuts – can remove, but need to consider implication:

The Kin storyline in Tanchico (need 1 non-Aes Sedai Channelling society, and someone for Nyn / Elayne to interact with looking for the MacGuffin)

Berelain / Faile (Faile deals with the ghost of a dead wife)

The Red Veils (I think the Shadow needs human soldiers)

Any non-trolloc monsters (Draghkar, Grolm, Raken) (too much SFX budget)

Tear or Illian (keep 1 - Rand needs a non-Aiel army beyond Cairhien)

Galad (would need Dain to forgive Perrin)

Birgitte (important to Nyn and Elayne’s character development)

 

Hard Cuts – material re-writes to major plot points required:

Siuan / Leanne / Logain’s journey to Salidar (stilling, healing, redemption, and politics)

The Aelfinn / Elfinn / Tower of Genji (Mat, getting Moiraine back)

Moiridin / Cyndane (they need at least one soul switch before the end)

The Borderlands Compulsion arc (become the King you were born to be, Mat assumes command)

The Camelyn Civil War (swap the balefire end of FoH for the end of the Civil War)

Egeanin (to show Seanchan aren’t all evil)

 

For those of us who enjoy the political machinations, or complex world building, or even nuance, we can forget it. The Axeman cometh...