WoT Season 2 Episode 2: Strangers and Friends

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Agitel said:

just raiding such a small hamlet in the night seems a bit much.

But they know Ingtar is there with his little group of Borderlanders. And it seems as if there's an agenda to get people to Falme. So there was a deeper purpose to this seemingly abnormal activity.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

"Purposely faking audiences out" would be the story benefit behind changing the identities of Darkfriends between the books and the show, and lean even further into the producer-stated notion that this adaptation represents an entirely new Turning of the Wheel of Time itself.

The producer never stated that, Brandon Sanderson said it as an aside that he later regretted when interacting with a fan. 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

I will say I don't view the book Seanchan attacking a tiny town that has no army. If it was a fortified city or military base, yes. It's less dramatic, but I imagine them literally just marching into a tiny town like this, declaring the town is now part of the Seanchan Empire, then demanding oaths. Maybe there's some door to door and violence in forcing paths, but just raiding such a small hamlet in the night seems a bit much. Just marching in uncontested almost displays power more.

 

This isn't a significant criticism, or maybe even much of a criticism at all. I get why they did it for TV, and the Seanchan can be a bit different for the show. Just something that crossed my book-brained mind.

I mean this a Seanchan with a Forsaken openly working with them (and a different one to the books), we are going to get the Suroth reveal far earlier I feel. and I kind of like that, in the books the POV method means that keeping Darkfriends in the dark from the reader as well as the main characters is a good method to build tension. On the screen letting the audience into some of the "secrets" and then watching the main characters walk into a trap the audience knows is there creates a different form of slow build tension, vs the sudden shock of a reveal, which, after a while could get a bit jading. 

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

I will say I don't view the book Seanchan attacking a tiny town that has no army. If it was a fortified city or military base, yes. It's less dramatic, but I imagine them literally just marching into a tiny town like this, declaring the town is now part of the Seanchan Empire, then demanding oaths. Maybe there's some door to door and violence in forcing paths, but just raiding such a small hamlet in the night seems a bit much. Just marching in uncontested almost displays power more.

 

This isn't a significant criticism, or maybe even much of a criticism at all. I get why they did it for TV, and the Seanchan can be a bit different for the show. Just something that crossed my book-brained mind.

 

In the books Atuan's mill was attacked by the Seanchan if my memory serves me correct.  Perrin and the gang pass through there looking for Fain.  The people are evasive and don't want to say what happened but there was a large scorch mark in the middle of the village that makes Hurin vomit just by being near. 

 

So if my memory isn't failing me the Seanchan will make a scene even in small villages.

[DigificWriter]

Just now, Skipp said:

In the books Atuan's mill was attacked by the Seanchan

 

And in the show, because that's where Perrin and Co. are.

 

Suroth's 'Voice' very specifically identifies the locale during her big monologue.

[DaddyFinn]

2 hours ago, Agitel said:

I will say I don't view the book Seanchan attacking a tiny town that has no army. If it was a fortified city or military base, yes. It's less dramatic, but I imagine them literally just marching into a tiny town like this, declaring the town is now part of the Seanchan Empire, then demanding oaths. Maybe there's some door to door and violence in forcing paths, but just raiding such a small hamlet in the night seems a bit much. Just marching in uncontested almost displays power more.

 

This isn't a significant criticism, or maybe even much of a criticism at all. I get why they did it for TV, and the Seanchan can be a bit different for the show. Just something that crossed my book-brained mind.

As others have said, Suroth is working with Ishamael. Didn't you wonder why only Perrin (And Loial) were not under any serious threat and instead tried to be captured?

[DreadLord31]

Maybe cause I put it in a spoiler y’all are missing the forest for the trees and not talking about, IMO, the important foreshadowing we’ve gotten so far from the show) that gives me great hope that the show IS gonna land in about the same place as the books. 
 

Verin, in the middle, says, “There are books in the Tower that prove useful. Prophecies that speak of fighting on Toman Head, battles in the sky, a sword of flame, and the branded hand that wields it. I will find them.” 
 

And then, foreshadowing, Min clearly has a vision of someone stabbing Rand with the Shadar Logoth dagger [i.e Rand is still going to get the Shadar Logoth dagger stab] and Matt lowering him & I’m guessing it’ll happen after he takes his wound from Isha’mael (and so it’ll “save” him) and illustrate that Min doesn’t always interpret correctly what she sees. If you watch that scene carefully, she doesn’t actually see Matt stab him, they just make you think that. 
 

And muddying the waters on even my own opinion of if Moiraine is stilled or shielded. Moiraine at the end says to Lan about Isha’mael, “He cut me off with a flick of the wrist.” And then Lan says, “It takes 8 Aes Sedai to cut someone off.” 
In S1 it only took 3 Aes Sedai to hold a shield on Logain… I think they did have 8 to gentle him, but I’d have to go back to S1 Ep4 to check that Power Ranger cheesy and terrible CGI scene. 

 

But also their dialogue about the bond was very muddled. Because Moiraine says, “Without the bond Lan can’t fulfill his oath to protect her.” But then she also says, “I will have Alanna take the bond by force if I must.”

 

Moiraine also says to Lan before that, that she knew he could be her warded because she knew “he could survive on his own” 

 

So I’m deviating from my confidence that it’s a shield and I predict that: in THIS season

Spoiler

Moiraine tackles Lanfear through the archway & we all think they’re gone (but they “come back”) in like S4 or something!! 

I know that’s a really bold prediction, and I would be SO impressed if they actually did it!! Let’s accelerate these story-arcs big time! 

Edited September 4, 2023 by DreadLord31

[DigificWriter]

2 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

in THIS season

  Hide contents

Moiraine tackles Lanfear through the archway & we all think they’re gone (but they “come back”) in like S4 or something!! 

 

Moiraine has been intentionally made the main protagonist of the TV show; they're not going to remove her from the board, even if they do get her story to where it is in the 'middle' books.

[SinisterDeath]

6 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I mean this a Seanchan with a Forsaken openly working with them

Is he though?

 

Here's a thought. Aside from knowing Perrin in the dreams... Perhaps he caught Perrin in the crowd... because Perrin was one of the few people in the crowd that could... actually see him?

[DreadLord31]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Moiraine has been intentionally made the main protagonist of the TV show; they're not going to remove her from the board, even if they do get her story to where it is in the 'middle' books.

Mmm maybe; but I think it interesting that they made Rosamund Pike a producer after S1. Maybe it’s so her name is attached to the series even after her character is not? Just saying…

[Agitel]

One thing they could do, if they want to keep that plot point while

Quote

Spoiler

keeping Pike on, is do her rescue far sooner than it is in the books, dive through at the end of one season, be rescued before the end of the next.

 

 

Ugh stuck with another quote box I can't remove on mobile, lol. I don't have the Source button I was shown to remove it.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Agitel

[Agitel]

Granted,

Spoiler

losing Moiraine is a huge, huge trigger in Rand's arc for the series. They can do things differently, of course. Perhaps not have her come back at all after a certain point, or just have a different trigger, but it's a significant spiral and guilt point.

 

[DigificWriter]

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

they made Rosamund Pike a producer after S1

 

They didn't. She had a Producer credit during S1 as well.

 

One way or another, though, Rosamund's Moiraine is not ever going to be absent from the show, regardless of whether or not the character was absent from some of the novels.

Edited September 5, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Mailman]

10 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Why?

 

High Lady Suroth was carried in on it - it's a giant palanquin.

 

A whole lot of what the Seanchan nobility do isn't practical. Their culture is based on slave labor.

 

Neither my kids (18 and 16) nor my wife has had any trouble following what's going on. My kids were not super impressed with S1 (it was "mid") but are enjoying S2. Wife has enjoyed both seasons so far. 

 

I'm sorry you feel that way.

 

9 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

please give some actual constructive feedback, how was the Dialogue terrible, it was a massive improvement on season 1.

The Seanchan Palanquin is described in the books, yes Tuon rides it in the books rather then Suroth but as Tuons representative you can imagine Suroth putting herself in the same position, especially given certain promises have no doubt been made to her. I mean at the Last Battle Mat himself thinks it is mad that she has such a large impractical chair she is carried around on. 

My Wife, never read the books, absolutely knows what is going on and has made it clear in the comments she has said that the writers are doing a great job in explaining the important things. So I would suggest your assumptions maybe need reassessing there. 

 

Finally I am sorry your disappointed but you don't need to watch, the books have not changed they are still there I would ask however what is it you expected from the TV show? There where always going to be changes and there where always going to be things cut, and when things are cut they have impacts on the things being kept in. 

The dialogue is all stilted its simply people delivering lines the only section ive seen so far that felt in any way natural are the scenes with Mat and Min. Too much lets talk about sex in some way then drop an easter egg for the book readers and on we go. The high lords scene from the next episode is a prime example of a bizarre conversation. No set up to make it believable then shoe horning the act of burning the invitations to flashback for the book readers.

 

From my recollection the palanquin is set up in the middle of the army tent and it does not actually get moved around at all. That bizarre thing we got in the show was 20 feet high carrying multiple people and had been sent to a village that appeared to contain less than 40 people. It's moving speed would by slower than walking pace. Unless we got to see it brought in on a number of  wagons and set up behind one of the couple of buildings in that flyspeck town it would have taken hours to arrive from any direction.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Mailman said:

The dialogue is all stilted its simply people delivering lines the only section ive seen so far that felt in any way natural are the scenes with Mat and Min.

Have to disagree here. The dialogue has been good to excellent (Moiraine bargaining with Bayle Domon, for example.)

 

3 minutes ago, Mailman said:

No set up to make it believable

What didn’t you find believable? That Selene and Rand crashed a party?

 

4 minutes ago, Mailman said:

That bizarre thing we got in the show was 20 feet high carrying multiple people and had been sent to a village that appeared to contain less than 40 people.

On brand for the Seanchan. And remember, they are in the flyspeck village for a non-military purpose. 

[Mailman]

16 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Have to disagree here. The dialogue has been good to excellent (Moiraine bargaining with Bayle Domon, for example.)

 

What didn’t you find believable? That Selene and Rand crashed a party?

 

On brand for the Seanchan. And remember, they are in the flyspeck village for a non-military purpose. 

It was preachy and ordinary makes Domon out to be an idiot, thinking the only copy of the knowledge contained on the seal is worthless is amazingly dense especially to someone who is less likely to be in it for material gain. Also the original quote from the book was in reference to the game of houses not trading. Simply another attempt to link back to the books in a shallow way.

 

Yes crashing the party is not believable also that they are just going to let guests start wandering off with bottles of wine especially when they are not known guests is not believable. Random noble coming up  and giving Rand a nobles are evil lesson is also not believable. That whole scene has a very The Last Jedi feeling to it.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Mailman

[Kaleb]

37 minutes ago, Mailman said:

It was preachy and ordinary makes Domon out to be an idiot, thinking the only copy of the knowledge contained on the seal is worthless is amazingly dense especially to someone who is less likely to be in it for material gain. Also the original quote from the book was in reference to the game of houses not trading. Simply another attempt to link back to the books in a shallow way.

 

Yes crashing the party is not believable also that they are just going to let guests start wandering off with bottles of wine especially when they are not known guests is not believable. Random noble coming up  and giving Rand a nobles are evil lesson is also not believable. That whole scene has a very The Last Jedi feeling to it.

Yeah, in addition to The Last Jedi, I recently re-read some books in this very long fantasy series where the heroes are repeatedly approached by randos who drop paragraphs of expository information for no apparent benefit to themselves. They should make a TV show from those books!

[DreadLord31]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

Rosamund's Moiraine is not ever going to be absent from the show, regardless of whether or not the character was absent from some of the novels.

We will see… 

IMO if they changed that it would cease to be an adaption and simply be, a show that is kind of, sort of, based on the WoT. 
Hopefully, though, they learned from GoT that what makes a show really intriguing to people - is not “fake out deaths” - it’s actually killing off your main characters. Raises the stakes and better reflects real life. Heroes die. Bad guys win. Sometimes. 

[DreadLord31]

2 hours ago, Agitel said:

One thing they could do, if they want to keep that plot point while

 

Ugh stuck with another quote box I can't remove on mobile, lol. I don't have the Source button I was shown to remove it.

I agree, similar to what I’m hoping they’ve done with my fav Tv character from S1… Thom. 

[DigificWriter]

6 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

We will see… 

IMO if they changed that it would cease to be an adaption and simply be, a show that is kind of, sort of, based on the WoT. 

 

How, exactly, would keeping Rosamund Pike on our screens even if/when the story reaches a point where Moiraine drops out of the narrative as presented on the page suddenly change whether or not it's an adaptation?

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

How, exactly, would keeping Rosamund Pike on our screens even if/when the story reaches a point where Moiraine drops out of the narrative as presented on the page suddenly change whether or not it's an adaptation?

Moiraine's "death" is massive for Rand. I don't necessarily agree that would be the final straw on becoming non-adaptation, but it would be such a weird change. Moiraine doesn't serve much purpose after her "death" and her story would have to be fabricated

[DigificWriter]

Rafe and his writers will craft a storyline for Moiraine in order for Rosamund Pike to remain on our screens. That's a guaranteed certainty*.

 

Said storyline may be derived from the novels, or it may be 100% original. The point is that even if/when we reach a place where Moiraine was no longer present in the novels, we will still see Rosamund Pike playing the character on our screens, and we will eventually 'catch up' to the point where she re-enters the narrative as it appears on the page.

 

Believing that Rosamund Pike will disappear from the cast just because the story reaches a point where the character of Moiraine disappeared from the novels - even temporarily - is, to put it bluntly, foolishness.

 

* They've already crafted a storyline for the character in Season 2 in order to keep Rosamund on our screens

[DaddyFinn]

4 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Rafe and his writers will craft a storyline for Moiraine in order for Rosamund Pike to remain on our screens. That's a guaranteed certainty*.

 

Said storyline may be derived from the novels, or it may be 100% original. The point is that even if/when we reach a place where Moiraine was no longer present in the novels, we will still see Rosamund Pike playing the character on our screens, and we will eventually 'catch up' to the point where she re-enters the narrative as it appears on the page.

 

Believing that Rosamund Pike will disappear from the cast just because the story reaches a point where the character of Moiraine disappeared from the novels - even temporarily - is, to put it bluntly, foolishness.

 

* They've already crafted a storyline for the character in Season 2 in order to keep Rosamund on our screens

Happy to disagree with you

[DigificWriter]

31 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Happy to disagree with you

 

The only way Rosamund Pike is going to be absent from our screens is if Moiraine's story definitively ends at the point where she disappeared from some of the novels, which means that any involvement that the character had in later books would be excluded from the TV series.

 

In a book, you can exclude a character from parts of the story and put them "out of sight, out of mind" for a while; in a visual medium, though, you have to remind audiences that the character is still around unless you definitively kill them off.

[Chivalry]

Yay, Rand has a blade master mentor (even if he's insane). Someone is listening to us.