Why not follow the books more closely?

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

And if we concentrate only on these "some" at either end of the spectrum, then we can have a lovely "social war" discussion full of hatred and vitriol. 

 

Or we could discuss the actual books and show on their merits.

 

I dunno what you guys would prefer but I would prefer to discuss the Wheel of Time. It doesn't really help to preempt people's arguments (strawmen rarely fight back) or to reply that "your side is worse", but whatever floats your boat. Personally, my experience would point to fans of the book being divided in their enthusiasm for the show, depending on how much they liked the show, not by predisposed political views. So this tribalistic them and us mentality I don't get. 

[notpropaganda73]

  On 2/27/2025 at 11:51 AM, Mailman said:

 

Some of those who like the show will invent as many ways as possible to apologize for the show, and also hate on those who dare to give criticism of the show, and insult those people as not real fans, because only they know what the books are truly about, what RJ would truly have wanted, and anyone who does not conform to their worldview is some racist bigoted religious nutjob whose sole mission in life is to destroy the show.

 

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My post was not directed at you. It was directed at this comment: "There are thousands or even more posts about TSR being so bad that the writers of the show have to correct the countless faults of the novel and improve upon Jordan's abysmal planning and execution..."

 

There are hundreds of reasons to dislike the show legitimately and with fair criticisms. Even if I don't agree with some of those criticisms, I can usually tell when the person is genuine versus the quote above. Hell, I don't even know if I would class myself as liking the show at this point (but am cautiously optimistic for S3).

 

Unfortunately there are an awful lot of bad faith critics of the show who frankly, I can't believe have the energy to constantly invent new ways to hate Rafe Judkins. 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 2/27/2025 at 1:53 AM, books of Robert Jordan said:

I predicted the disparagement of Book (1-2-3) 4, and my prediction has come true... There are thousands or even more posts about TSR being so bad that the writers of the show have to correct the countless faults of the novel and improve upon Jordan's abysmal planning and execution...

Decrying TEOTW, TGH, TDR, TSR all the time, and decrying Jordan too... and they call themselves fans...

 

Words really fail me...

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I have seen exactly zero of these “thousands” of supposed criticisms of TSR. Perhaps you would be kind enough to provide a link. 

Edited February 27 by Elder_Haman

[Mailman]

  On 2/27/2025 at 1:09 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

 

My post was not directed at you. It was directed at this comment: "There are thousands or even more posts about TSR being so bad that the writers of the show have to correct the countless faults of the novel and improve upon Jordan's abysmal planning and execution..."

 

There are hundreds of reasons to dislike the show legitimately and with fair criticisms. Even if I don't agree with some of those criticisms, I can usually tell when the person is genuine versus the quote above. Hell, I don't even know if I would class myself as liking the show at this point (but am cautiously optimistic for S3).

 

Unfortunately there are an awful lot of bad faith critics of the show who frankly, I can't believe have the energy to constantly invent new ways to hate Rafe Judkins. 

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I have seen your original post a few times before on this forum and others from other posters nearly as a word for word reproduction. I was not taking it as a direct attack on me. I just find it amusing that changing a couple of words makes it just as valid going the other way.

 

You speak of bad faith actors, and yes there are some that attack the show for incorrect reasons. But then you do not comment on the possible bad faith actors on the pro show side. And if you don't think the industry is buying creator content then you are wrong.

[notpropaganda73]

  On 2/27/2025 at 9:33 PM, Mailman said:

I have seen your original post a few times before on this forum and others from other posters nearly as a word for word reproduction. I was not taking it as a direct attack on me. I just find it amusing that changing a couple of words makes it just as valid going the other way.

 

You speak of bad faith actors, and yes there are some that attack the show for incorrect reasons. But then you do not comment on the possible bad faith actors on the pro show side. And if you don't think the industry is buying creator content then you are wrong.

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that's absolutely fair, I was very grump yesterday and seeing that post set me off a little 😅

 

oh I've no doubt Amazon are doing that, I know Daniel Greene talked about it after S1 aired and how they weren't happy that he wasn't lavishly praising the show or something along those lines. I think I just don't take creator content all that seriously for the most part - I just get annoyed when some critics of the show tell me I can't possibly be a true fan of WoT if I enjoy aspects of it or dare to try and talk or think about choices made. It's exhausting to see so much criticism of the show that stems from an assumption that Rafe and the creative team are making changes out of some sinister motivation to destroy RJ's work. 

 

like I say, I was grumpy making that post!

[Jordanfan63]

I too feel the writers should have kept more closely to the books. The characters are but a shadow of those created by Robert Jordan.  I have to forget that I have read the series several times in order to enjoy Amazon’s production.

 

Peter Jackson did an amazing job of maintaining the integrity of Tolkien’s writing. It is sad that the makers of Wheel of Time could not be as dilligent.

[Mirefox]

This is very old, but I just read an article about Lord of the Rings.  Apparently, Ian McKellen instructed Sean Aston to grab Elijah Wood’s hand when he first sees a recovered Frodo in Rivendell because it is a small detail in the books that fans would be looking for and would be excited to see.  Now obviously LotR is not a spot-on adaptation, but this is the way to approach it - what details, no matter how small, can we squeeze out of the books while doing our best to adapt the author’s story to new medium.

 

This show very, very clearly takes a polar opposite approach - what details can we change while changing the story in a way that we think it should go.

[Gudrean]

I'm by no means an "expert" of the Wheel of Time books. I have read it like 3 times. I have watched the series an equal amount of time, probably more. With only 8 episodes per season and maybe 8 seasons allowed, the biggest mistake made in my honest opinion was adding scenes and happenings that didn't happen but removing things that did. 

A list of things I didn't care for:

1. The changes to Mats family and Mat himself were, for me personally, blasphemy! His family were well thought of and loved and he was not a criminal, just a prankster.

2. Perrin did not need a wife or a death to be Eeyore! He was always going to struggle with the use of violence to protect the ones he loved.

3. Rand should have been the main character. Period

4. Moiraine and Landfear should have gone through the red door frame and been gone for a few seasons just like in the books. Don't get me wrong, the actresses playing those 2 were amazing and I would have missed seeing them for several seasons but it leads to other arcs.

5. Changing the relationships of Rand with Min, Aviendha and Elayne. It didn't appear to me he was ever going to actually hook up with any of the three.

6. Not using Saidin/Saidar from day 1. 

7. No sword training for Rand, no build-up of Rand's relationship with Lan.

9. Would have prefered to see Mat go through his 2 events rather just 1 to get his gifts.

 

Things I liked about the changes:

1. Backstories for the Foresaken were awesome. I actually really appreciated how they made you actually like them or at least love to hate them. I loved Lanfear, Ishy and Mogi. Actually I loved all of the Foresaken we got to see. 

2. More personality for Alanna. I loved her character and the actress who played her was a doll.

3. I loved seeing the bts for the stuff that happened in the rings. 

4. I loved the scenes with Mogi and Elayne/Nynaeve. Especially while under Mogi's influence.

5. I did enjoy the scene with the Eelfinn or whichever one it was, that was creepy and fun.

 

I just really wish they would have used the time they had to put in as much important stuff from the books and left out scenes that never happened instead. Other than the ones I listed. I'm super happy I got to see my favorite book series come to life and I'm so disappointed to not get more. I just wish some things would have been left alone and not changed so much. Overall I loved season 3, and liked seasons 1 and 2. Will I rewatch it? Yes absolutely, probably a lot since I might not get more. 

 

I really would love to see someone make an animated series so as to not have many limitations. Also it could have more episodes and seasons.   Just my 2 cents. 😊

[Maximillion]

  On 5/27/2025 at 1:58 PM, Gudrean said:

I'm by no means an "expert" of the Wheel of Time books. I have read it like 3 times. I have watched the series an equal amount of time, probably more. With only 8 episodes per season and maybe 8 seasons allowed, the biggest mistake made in my honest opinion was adding scenes and happenings that didn't happen but removing things that did. 

A list of things I didn't care for:

1. The changes to Mats family and Mat himself were, for me personally, blasphemy! His family were well thought of and loved and he was not a criminal, just a prankster.

2. Perrin did not need a wife or a death to be Eeyore! He was always going to struggle with the use of violence to protect the ones he loved.

3. Rand should have been the main character. Period

4. Moiraine and Landfear should have gone through the red door frame and been gone for a few seasons just like in the books. Don't get me wrong, the actresses playing those 2 were amazing and I would have missed seeing them for several seasons but it leads to other arcs.

5. Changing the relationships of Rand with Min, Aviendha and Elayne. It didn't appear to me he was ever going to actually hook up with any of the three.

6. Not using Saidin/Saidar from day 1. 

7. No sword training for Rand, no build-up of Rand's relationship with Lan.

9. Would have prefered to see Mat go through his 2 events rather just 1 to get his gifts.

 

Things I liked about the changes:

1. Backstories for the Foresaken were awesome. I actually really appreciated how they made you actually like them or at least love to hate them. I loved Lanfear, Ishy and Mogi. Actually I loved all of the Foresaken we got to see. 

2. More personality for Alanna. I loved her character and the actress who played her was a doll.

3. I loved seeing the bts for the stuff that happened in the rings. 

4. I loved the scenes with Mogi and Elayne/Nynaeve. Especially while under Mogi's influence.

5. I did enjoy the scene with the Eelfinn or whichever one it was, that was creepy and fun.

 

I just really wish they would have used the time they had to put in as much important stuff from the books and left out scenes that never happened instead. Other than the ones I listed. I'm super happy I got to see my favorite book series come to life and I'm so disappointed to not get more. I just wish some things would have been left alone and not changed so much. Overall I loved season 3, and liked seasons 1 and 2. Will I rewatch it? Yes absolutely, probably a lot since I might not get more. 

 

I really would love to see someone make an animated series so as to not have many limitations. Also it could have more episodes and seasons.   Just my 2 cents. 😊

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It's a shame - I was shocked to watch a recent youtube video that collated together the things Rafe Judkins said about the show and his approach. I won;t repeat them, or link the video as the youtuber is so cutting and in celebration mode.  Judkins wasn't making the series for fans of WoT, he was making it for a specific audience that was simply too small.  No one else is to blame but Judkins.

 

 

 

Edited May 28 by Maximillion

[Dedicated]

  On 5/31/2023 at 10:33 AM, DojoToad said:

... but I'm not sure what a comic book 'purist' would say.

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While he probably isn't a purist this youtuber has some great videos talking about the differences between the MCU and comics: http://www.youtube.com/@comics_explained

 

He largely enjoys the MCU and thinks it was well done.

 

The difference between the Wheel of Time adaptation (as far as I can tell) and stuff like "Andor" or the MCU (up to "End Game" because that's all I saw) is that the creators of "Andor" and the "MCU" actually had a larger conceptional framework to operate in. They understood the larger vision of what they wanted to achieve and they wanted to tell a GOOD story.

 

The creators of the Wheel of Time DID NOT CARE ABOUT TELLING A GOOD STORY. They just looked at the next most popular series (relative to A Song of Ice and Fire) and were like, "Oh yea, all that money we invested to create the resources of The Rings of Power? We can save some money and use those resources to make The Wheel of Time. We don't know this story, why it's so good, and we don't care. We'll just farm it for cool ideas and make up our own story along the way."

 

I warned the members of this forum to NOT hype or or act as walking, talking advertisements for a bunch of exploitative, cheap, artless sons of ******** who were going to ruin the story we loved. 

 

Check out my tiktok for more videos me itching and groaning into the wind about this: bogusl0tus

[Samt]

  On 5/31/2025 at 2:46 PM, Dedicated said:

 

While he probably isn't a purist this youtuber has some great videos talking about the differences between the MCU and comics: http://www.youtube.com/@comics_explained

 

He largely enjoys the MCU and thinks it was well done.

 

The difference between the Wheel of Time adaptation (as far as I can tell) and stuff like "Andor" or the MCU (up to "End Game" because that's all I saw) is that the creators of "Andor" and the "MCU" actually had a larger conceptional framework to operate in. They understood the larger vision of what they wanted to achieve and they wanted to tell a GOOD story.

 

The creators of the Wheel of Time DID NOT CARE ABOUT TELLING A GOOD STORY. They just looked at the next most popular series (relative to A Song of Ice and Fire) and were like, "Oh yea, all that money we invested to create the resources of The Rings of Power? We can save some money and use those resources to make The Wheel of Time. We don't know this story, why it's so good, and we don't care. We'll just farm it for cool ideas and make up our own story along the way."

 

I warned the members of this forum to NOT hype or or act as walking, talking advertisements for a bunch of exploitative, cheap, artless sons of ******** who were going to ruin the story we loved. 

 

Check out my tiktok for more videos me itching and groaning into the wind about this: bogusl0tus

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I don’t disagree, but there is an important distinction between adapting a story or just telling a story in an existing universe.  Andor and MCU stuff are just telling a story in an existing universe.  There is a very rich and also broad framework that you need to stay inside, but there is lots of creative freedom.  
 

WoT may have been seen more favorably if they had just said, “This is some other turning and that things will happen differently.  We aren’t trying to tell the same story and nothing is sacred or expected to be similar.” That is essentially what they did anyways, but they never went that far to acknowledge it.  The WoT universe even has a built in cyclical mechanism to do this and still reuse some of the same characters and do a story that is eerily similar but also different.  That sort of thing wouldn’t actually work in lots of universes because there wouldn’t be a reason why a similar set of specific events happens with slightly different details.

[Dedicated]

  On 5/31/2025 at 7:00 PM, Samt said:

WoT may have been seen more favorably if they had just said, “This is some other turning and that things will happen differently.  We aren’t trying to tell the same story and nothing is sacred or expected to be similar.” That is essentially what they did anyways, but they never went that far to acknowledge it.  The WoT universe even has a built in cyclical mechanism to do this and still reuse some of the same characters and do a story that is eerily similar but also different.  That sort of thing wouldn’t actually work in lots of universes because there wouldn’t be a reason why a similar set of specific events happens with slightly different details.

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This is fair, but then it just makes their execution cowardly. They should have just reimagined a completely different story (ie: no Rand, Mat, etc; no Andor, Carihien, Aiel etc), and just used the rules of the universe (like a lot of Star Wars Fanfic). Doing it the way they did just alienated the book series fanbase and then they apparently failed to garner enough of a fanbase to keep the show going so it was an utter failure all together. I could be wrong on the last bit because I don't want to sully my established vision of the story by watching any of the TV show, but I'm just so annoyed at seeing my favorite stories get butchered by greedy suits who haphazardly try to revision OUR beloved stories. A Game of Thrones sullied the A Song of Ice and Fire series and possibly even derailed Martin and kept him from being able to complete the series (I think Martin wrote himself into a corner and he is having difficulty finding the solution). 

 

No, I'm convinced this was a lazily conceived project that was purely profit motivated and they had no intentions of actually writing a complete story; or rather, the suits had no intentions of funding this project beyond the point where they made enough money from it. I think it's basically the same strategy private equity uses on successful, well established chains. 

[WoTwasThat]

  On 5/31/2025 at 7:38 PM, Dedicated said:

No, I'm convinced this was a lazily conceived project that was purely profit motivated and they had no intentions of actually writing a complete story; or rather, the suits had no intentions of funding this project beyond the point where they made enough money from it. I think it's basically the same strategy private equity uses on successful, well established chains. 

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Didn’t they spend like $250MM on the three seasons? Seems like a weird way to make a profit…. I suspect Amazon is privy to a lot more viewership data than the public at large, and they saw the bottom dropping out. Season 1 doomed the show even though the exes gave Rafe two more seasons to try to turn it around.

 

And the culture changed. This series was conceived, written, and produced at the height of the woke craze. That tide is receding, thankfully, and this show looks increasingly weird and out of touch. 
 

The producers alienated a big chunk of the book fan base with the bizarre “adaptation” and the show just wasn’t good enough quality to dig out of that hole. 

Edited June 1 by WoTwasThat

[Dedicated]

  On 6/1/2025 at 2:28 AM, WoTwasThat said:

Didn’t they spend like $250MM on the three seasons? Seems like a weird way to make a profit….

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Check out James Li's rundown of how private equity firms buy up successful business chains, cut corners until they run the franchise into the ground and walk away with a profit despite the initial cost of investment.

 

I imagine the suits ran the numbers and said, "we have to maintain X amount of viewership for X amount of time in order to make a worthwhile profit and the data indicates X amount of book fans will watch, X amount of Game of Thrones fans will watch because they're still hungry for that type of content and X amount of people will randomly watch; so on and so forth. If the show succeeds we have a great product that can continue to make money; if not, we still reached achieved our baseline goal. The book fanbase? lol duck them! No one really reads these days anyways; we're mostly gaming off Game of Thrones hunger which is why we made Rings of Power." I'm basing this on the assumption that the investors wouldn't invest in something they didn't have a clear reason to believe would return in profits. Remember, these are investors, not lovers of the art of story telling. I doubt anyone who invested in the creation of this series had ever really read the books.

 

I could be wrong. I'm just pissed they did this to one of my favorite stories. 

 

Also, after some consideration of the excuse that the TV series is exploring an "altnerate" timeline of events... I THINK the book series timeline is THE LAST TIMELINE STANDING AGAINST THE DARK ONE. So the TV series would have to end with Rand dying and the Dark One winning. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if I am correct that is just hilariously poetic to me. When financially motivated suits have the final say in art the Dark One DOES INDEED WIN.

Edited June 1 by Dedicated

[Bodewhin]

I wouldn't want to assume that Judkins and the rest of the showrunners went into WOT with bad intentions - the amount of work that goes into a fantasy series would make it kind of insane if the series had been a spite project - intended to destroy RJ's WOT.

 

Having said that, I do think they had a particular vision and did not follow the source material or adapt the books in a satisfactory way IMO because of that vision. 

 

I've seen the idea floated around that the limited time of 8 episodes contributed to some of the huge changes - which I don't personally agree with. If Jackson was able to condense the three LOTR books into three long films, I think a lot could have been accomplished book-wise into a few seasons for WOT. But the storylines the series highlighted were often not even taken directly from the books or shifted around which created a lot of shuffling or rendering other plots incompatible.

 

I thought a lot of the casting of the series was good, the acting solid, but (to me) the characters were very altered from their book namesakes and some weren't recognizable. The same goes for the world building. I actually wasn't bothered by the special effects and okay with the production values (with a few exceptions like the look of the Ogier). I personally hold the opinion that the series could have been a lot more like the books - even with some acceptable shifts and changes like any adaption. 

 

I just don't believe the showrunners wanted to follow the books any closer - and had their own vision. I'm not demonizing them for that, they obviously have their reasons for approaching the adaption as they did - just as I have reasons for disliking it.

 

The WOT series cancellation is just unfortunate for a lot of reasons and on a lot of levels. Mostly, because Amazon didn't show good faith in seeing the rest of this story through in whatever shape, or form the showrunners had in the works.

 

I did wonder season to season if there was a pre determined plan going on to reach an ending or not - but I do believe those involved wanted to finish it. There's been a lot of silence about the cancellation from many of the actors like Rosamund Pike for example, which makes me wonder what happened bts.

 

I would actually like to hear some of the reasoning behind many of the creative choices and why they didn't choose to follow the books more closely but chose to adapt WOT anyway - but I'm doubtful we'll ever get that.

[notpropaganda73]

I think there is some unfair commentary and comparisons in here. 

 

Andor sits within an incredibly well established universe. Anyone with a passing interest in movies understands Star Wars and the general feel of that universe. There is very little world-building that needs to be done for a show like Andor.

 

However it is very clear to me that Andor had more talented writers than WoT - or, at least, Tony Gilroy had more absolute control over the story of Andor than Rafe did over WoT. Disney obviously trusted Gilroy to tell the story in whatever way he saw fit, even though they shortened the seasons available to him from 5 to 2. I am not sure that Rafe had as much leeway from Prime studios, considering the stories around studio notes received on a single episode etc.

 

There is a consistency in story-telling in Andor, and a depth to the writing, that is rarely present in WoT. I am not absolving Rafe and the creators from all blame here. But - and I may be repeating myself from discussions going all the way back to Season 1 - I really really dislike seeing commentary around WoT that describes the motivations behind creating the show as "they wanted to tell their own story" "they don't like the source material", "they had an agenda" "they hated the fans" and that general tone. We can debate all day long about how the adaptation worked and didn't work, but I really don't understand seeing interviews with Rafe in particular and thinking "this man hates Robert Jordan's books". It's clear to me he loves the story and world of WoT, and tried to adapt it as best he could with his own creative ideas on how to do so.

 

That doesn't make him someone with sinister, selfish motivations. It just makes him an artist who loves WoT, maybe not in the exact same way that I love WoT, but that's fine, that's what art is all about really. 

[notpropaganda73]

  On 6/5/2025 at 7:22 PM, Bodewhin said:

I wouldn't want to assume that Judkins and the rest of the showrunners went into WOT with bad intentions - the amount of work that goes into a fantasy series would make it kind of insane if the series had been a spite project - intended to destroy RJ's WOT.

 

Having said that, I do think they had a particular vision and did not follow the source material or adapt the books in a satisfactory way IMO because of that vision. 

 

I've seen the idea floated around that the limited time of 8 episodes contributed to some of the huge changes - which I don't personally agree with. If Jackson was able to condense the three LOTR books into three long films, I think a lot could have been accomplished book-wise into a few seasons for WOT. But the storylines the series highlighted were often not even taken directly from the books or shifted around which created a lot of shuffling or rendering other plots incompatible.

 

I thought a lot of the casting of the series was good, the acting solid, but (to me) the characters were very altered from their book namesakes and some weren't recognizable. The same goes for the world building. I actually wasn't bothered by the special effects and okay with the production values (with a few exceptions like the look of the Ogier). I personally hold the opinion that the series could have been a lot more like the books - even with some acceptable shifts and changes like any adaption. 

 

I just don't believe the showrunners wanted to follow the books any closer - and had their own vision. I'm not demonizing them for that, they obviously have their reasons for approaching the adaption as they did - just as I have reasons for disliking it.

 

The WOT series cancellation is just unfortunate for a lot of reasons and on a lot of levels. Mostly, because Amazon didn't show good faith in seeing the rest of this story through in whatever shape, or form the showrunners had in the works.

 

I did wonder season to season if there was a pre determined plan going on to reach an ending or not - but I do believe those involved wanted to finish it. There's been a lot of silence about the cancellation from many of the actors like Rosamund Pike for example, which makes me wonder what happened bts.

 

I would actually like to hear some of the reasoning behind many of the creative choices and why they didn't choose to follow the books more closely but chose to adapt WOT anyway - but I'm doubtful we'll ever get that.

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I had responded to this post earlier but got a Bad Gateway request! I think it's a very fair post, however I'm not sure that they did not want to follow the books more, I think given the choice any fan of the books (which Rafe is) would want to ensure as much faithfulness to the source material as would be possible.

 

But to answer your final point on the reasoning, much of Rafe's comments around creating the adaptation has focussed on telling the story of WoT in it's entirety. Even his post addressing the cancellation of the show mentions this - "One of my core goals in making this show, even from the earliest crafting of the pitch, has been to tell the whole story". 

 

I think they took the view in adapting the books that they needed to lay groundwork for the epic conclusion of WoT very early on. That meant showing us a lot more Aes Sedai politicking for example than we got in the books, or at least showing it "on screen". We see a lot more of the internal Aes Sedai divisions, and establishing how the White Tower would come to try and cage the Dragon for example, setting up Dumai's Wells in future. The Stepin episode was clearly to set up what happens to a Warder when their Aes Sedai dies - potentially establishing the danger for Rand further down the road.

 

I think this driving factor really was behind the vast majority of adaptation choices, in that they were trying to make sure that the ending would really "land" so to speak. 

 

However, I think they may have gotten a bit lost in that big picture thinking and didn't spend as much time establishing the characters which drive the entire story. I said in the show cancellation thread that I think the big picture focus is good generally, they have to get across so much in the world of WoT in a limited time, so spreading the love is a good idea. And I liked things like the Stepin episode as a bottle episode almost, to show TV audiences how the Warder bond functions. However, given the choice to establish the EF5 more versus what was a very good episode on it's own, I would choose the former, especially early in the show. 

 

As it was, while the show improved and S3 was the best so far, I still think it suffered from not developing our main characters. I think very often they spread their focus too thinly and it was no coincidence in my view that the highest highs of the show was when they spent time on one character or story - Rhuidean, Nynaeve's Accepted Test, Egwene with the collar. Funnily enough, considering the issues they had with the casting, one of the best developed characters for me was Mat, as I felt it was clear what they were doing with his arc of being a reluctant hero. Just like the other characters though, I wish we had more time with him. 

[Bodewhin]

  On 6/6/2025 at 11:42 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

I think this driving factor really was behind the vast majority of adaptation choices, in that they were trying to make sure that the ending would really "land" so to speak. 

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I'm not sure how you can make the ending land, when the takeoff (establishing characters and their arc) and flight pattern (the story) deviated so greatly. 

 

I think it's fair to question the amount of sway Judkins had with the Amazon tops - I recall Sanderson saying that Judkins went to the bat for him over the Perrin/wife/killing thing but was ultimately shut down. His remarks I take less to heart - being that a lot of shows/films will say "This season we're delving deep into this motivation" - then you watch the season/episode and the delving deep turns out to be a footnote or one scene. Without bringing other media into this - it happens frequently. 

 

Imo like I said on my post, I think the showrunners had a particular vision and followed it - for good (to those to liked it) or to ill (to those who didn't).

 

I definitely think a lot got lost or confused for whatever reasons - for example, I will never understand why season 2 spent so much time on Moiraine family drama and loss of the one power. That time could have been spent on actual source stuff instead - things to get the story on track to reach important points. 

 

To be entirely honest, I thought the series take on Mat was a mess - from the recast standpoint, and just the lack of charm and humor in his character on the whole - even when they switched actor, it was not working for me. I don't even know what his arc was in the series. Similarly to Perrin with the wolf brother plot, I thought it was messy. I don't fault the actors, my gripe is with the writing/adapting. Then there were cases like series Min - I'm not even going there. 

 

But I do agree that a lot of things were spread too thinly, not enough time to really do the characters justice- which could be why my takeaway from above is what it is. 

 

I'm not here to argue. Differences in opinions is what makes the wheel go round.

 

I understand where you're coming from. Thanks for the thought out response. 

 

 

[Cipher]

  On 6/6/2025 at 4:25 PM, Bodewhin said:

 

To be entirely honest, I thought the series take on Mat was a mess - from the recast standpoint, and just the lack of charm and humor in his character on the whole - even when they switched actor, it was not working for me. I don't even know what his arc was in the series. Similarly to Perrin with the wolf brother plot, I thought it was messy. I don't fault the actors, my gripe is with the writing/adapting. Then there were cases like series Min - I'm not even going there. 

 

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S2 and S3 changed Mat from a smart ass to a dumb ass.  Sanderson did that some as well.

 

IMO I prefer how Barney Harris’s Mat was playing than the later actor—no shade on him as I could see Mat in his portrayal, but some of it seems direction and writing.

 

 

[Raal Gurniss]

  On 6/23/2025 at 7:51 PM, Cipher said:

S2 and S3 changed Mat from a smart ass to a dumb ass.  Sanderson did that some as well.

 

IMO I prefer how Barney Harris’s Mat was playing than the later actor—no shade on him as I could see Mat in his portrayal, but some of it seems direction and writing.

 

 

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Definitely, he was probably the most suited to the role of all the cast in my opinion.