Question/speculation for book readers who watch the show

[DojoToad]

7 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Another key element in the books that will by necessity likely have to be left out is the forsaken returning with different appearances and names. Also the age factor of stilled AS. But who knows, maybe the show will go for it?

Think they might roll Bain, Chiad, and Gaul into Avi - must make sacrifices...

[DreadLord31]

7 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Think they might roll Bain, Chiad, and Gaul into Avi - must make sacrifices...

The show is all about “girl power”. So yes, they’ll cut Gaul. But Bain and Chiad were already cast, so no, they’re not cut. 
 

watch this video: 

 

[DojoToad]

34 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

The show is all about “girl power”. So yes, they’ll cut Gaul. But Bain and Chiad were already cast, so no, they’re not cut. 
 

watch this video: 

 

Ah yes...

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

The show is all about “girl power”. So yes, they’ll cut Gaul.

I doubt they cut Gaul. His arc is too tied into Perrin’s. 

[DojoToad]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I doubt they cut Gaul. His arc is too tied into Perrin’s. 

I hope not.  But wouldn't surprise me...

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I hope not.  But wouldn't surprise me...

I suppose Bain or Chiad could take his place in the wolf dream. I hope not though. And I hope they don’t cut Ruarc either, but they probably will. 

[TheDreadReader]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:39 AM, expat said:

Sea Folks plot seems an obvious place to cut.  They didn't accomplish anything and they seem to be a pale imitation of the Aiel (channelers not under the White Tower control, outsiders who support Rand under a different rubric than the Dragon etc.).

 

 

Depending on how they structured it, the Sea Folk / Bowl of Winds arc could be accomplished in just one to three episodes.  1 episode to introduce it.  1 episode to look for it.   And, 1 episode to find/use it.   You don't need to introduce a lot of information about them in order for them to appear and hit their plot points.   

 

The same applies to the kin and a bunch of other things.  

 

[DojoToad]

23 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

Depending on how they structured it, the Sea Folk / Bowl of Winds arc could be accomplished in just one to three episodes.  1 episode to introduce it.  1 episode to look for it.   And, 1 episode to find/use it.   You don't need to introduce a lot of information about them in order for them to appear and hit their plot points.   

 

The same applies to the kin and a bunch of other things.  

 

Jordan took too long with Bowl of the Winds.  Hopefully the show improves on that arc...

[Guire]

9 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Where is the dislike button? If anything WoT shows “toxic femininity”. Have you read the books? RJ’s brilliance is showing that all people are faulty & those in power consistently exhibit it in certain ways (like being arrogant, condescending, manipulative, exclusive, abusive, ect…)

 

Case(s) in point: Nynaeve’s constant condescension of the boys. Elaida & the Aes Sedai treatment of Rand, Tylin and Matt, ect… 

I have read WoT many many times since 1991.  In a GQ interview Rafe said he pitched this show as a corrective to all the misogyny in GoT.  He wanted to center the female characters.  I think this has added an extra layer of difficulty on top of all the reasons it is a tough adaptation. To me Jordan's voice in the series is an old soldiers voice. I think Rafe's perspective from an activist feminist perspective is not a very good choice for a march to apocalyptic war, but that is what Amazon hired him to do.  That is the story we are going to get.

[DojoToad]

27 minutes ago, Guire said:

I have read WoT many many times since 1991.  In a GQ interview Rafe said he pitched this show as a corrective to all the misogyny in GoT.  He wanted to center the female characters.  I think this has added an extra layer of difficulty on top of all the reasons it is a tough adaptation. To me Jordan's voice in the series is an old soldiers voice. I think Rafe's perspective from an activist feminist perspective is not a very good choice for a march to apocalyptic war, but that is what Amazon hired him to do.  That is the story we are going to get.

TRUTH

[SinisterDeath]

12 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Where is the dislike button?

There isn't one, because the powers that be would rather people like/love/etc a post then to "downvote" or "dislike" it.

 

Quote

If anything WoT shows “toxic femininity”. Have you read the books? RJ’s brilliance is showing that all people are faulty & those in power consistently exhibit it in certain ways (like being arrogant, condescending, manipulative, exclusive, abusive, ect…)

Yes, RJ showed "toxic femininity", and he shows toxic masculinity if you know where to look.

(Book 5, Thom said something along the lines of he'd normally help fix a young lads guilt by getting them drunk and helping them burying their sorrow in a nice barmaid, but unfortunately that wasn't going to work for Nynaeve)

Whether he did it intentionally or not is debatable, but I believe he used "toxic femininity" as a vehicle for his audience (Young Males) to better recognize how they treat others.

I believe readers would do this by identifying with the characters (Rand/Mat/Perrin) in his books, and when they read what those characters go through at the hands of others, it would allow them to mentally "walk in the shoes" of the people they might be doing this to IRL, and potentially learn from it.

Unfortunately, this can have the unintended consequence where those "young men" will do a 180, and take what they read, and use it to justify the thought that "this only happens to men, and women deserve what they get".... which is just a complicated way of saying you can't you can't fix narcissists with literature. 

 

12 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Case(s) in point: Nynaeve’s constant condescension of the boys. Elaida & the Aes Sedai treatment of Rand, Tylin and Matt, ect… 

This is something I'm wondering if they'll keep or not.
Will they remove all the negative treatment the women put on the male characters throughout the series? Will they keep some of it? Tone it down?

I can understand the fear that they'll remove it entirely, and have only the male characters treat female characters negatively... And that would be unfortunate. A central theme of the series is people are equally shitty towards each other, regardless of their gender. 

 I guess we'll just have to WAFO?

[Guire]

26 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

There isn't one, because the powers that be would rather people like/love/etc a post then to "downvote" or "dislike" it.

 

Yes, RJ showed "toxic femininity", and he shows toxic masculinity if you know where to look.

(Book 5, Thom said something along the lines of he'd normally help fix a young lads guilt by getting them drunk and helping them burying their sorrow in a nice barmaid, but unfortunately that wasn't going to work for Nynaeve)

Whether he did it intentionally or not is debatable, but I believe he used "toxic femininity" as a vehicle for his audience (Young Males) to better recognize how they treat others.

I believe readers would do this by identifying with the characters (Rand/Mat/Perrin) in his books, and when they read what those characters go through at the hands of others, it would allow them to mentally "walk in the shoes" of the people they might be doing this to IRL, and potentially learn from it.

Unfortunately, this can have the unintended consequence where those "young men" will do a 180, and take what they read, and use it to justify the thought that "this only happens to men, and women deserve what they get".... which is just a complicated way of saying you can't you can't fix narcissists with literature. 

 

This is something I'm wondering if they'll keep or not.
Will they remove all the negative treatment the women put on the male characters throughout the series? Will they keep some of it? Tone it down?

I can understand the fear that they'll remove it entirely, and have only the male characters treat female characters negatively... And that would be unfortunate. A central theme of the series is people are equally shitty towards each other, regardless of their gender. 

 I guess we'll just have to WAFO?

I think this is all central to why I currently don't like the corrective adaptation trend.  I think it is better to use original IP that incorporates an author's desired worldview.  It can be baked into the story and feel more organic and fine tuned.  Taking an IP with beloved characters and shoe horning in the desired message gets ham fisted really quickly.  Outside of the story concerns just adds layer on layer of complexity.  

 

A written to visual medium adaptation is tough.  Add on making story more gender equal, more  prefered diverse, having limitations on location because Amazon wants tax breaks and to build a giant studio, a marketing campaign that courts book fans while taunting fans that want a different story, having writers that only like parts of a massive complex story, unexpected global pandemic, Amazon having tightly specific parameters for marketing and story telling.  Looking at other current big entertainment projects, I think Rafe and co look like champions.  But if HBO had made WoT with intent on telling Jordan's story ( warts and all) this would be the big fantasy out now without any asterics or disputes.

[SinisterDeath]

22 hours ago, Guire said:

But if HBO had made WoT with intent on telling Jordan's story ( warts and all) this would be the big fantasy out now without any asterics or disputes.

IF HBO had got their hands on it, who knows what they would have done with it to be honest.

 

Have you seen GoT's fanbase attack House of Dragons for not being book accurate enough? (Some are mad because it doesn't include literal child rape. Other's are mad because they cast people of color in the show)

Anyways, I honestly believe the only medium you could have a near-book accurate TV show is something closer to Anime. Unfortunately that's not popular enough, even among the book fans.

 

Quote

I think this is all central to why I currently don't like the corrective adaptation trend.  I think it is better to use original IP that incorporates an author's desired worldview.  It can be baked into the story and feel more organic and fine tuned.  Taking an IP with beloved characters and shoe horning in the desired message gets ham fisted really quickly.  Outside of the story concerns just adds layer on layer of complexity.  

Here's something you gotta remember about RJ.
1) He loved the TV Series Merlin, and wished the WoT tv series could be just as good.
2) He allowed and approved the video games creation. The plot/story was completely not-wot. It's about as close to WoT as I-Robot is to the actual Asimov book called I-Robot is. Yet, RJ Approved it and was happy.

Even RJ's own "casting" list, went against his own character descriptions. What I'm getting at is... The Man wasn't picky about adaptations of his works. I don't think he gave a flying frying pan about half the crap his fans did. I'm pretty sure he's told some of his fans to go inflate a donkey because they needed to touch grass.

[Guire]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

IF HBO had got their hands on it, who knows what they would have done with it to be honest.

 

Have you seen GoT's fanbase attack House of Dragons for not being book accurate enough? (Some are mad because it doesn't include literal child rape. Other's are mad because they cast people of color in the show)

Anyways, I honestly believe the only medium you could have a near-book accurate TV show is something closer to Anime. Unfortunately that's not popular enough, even among the book fans.

 

Here's something you gotta remember about RJ.
1) He loved the TV Series Merlin, and wished the WoT tv series could be just as good.
2) He allowed and approved the video games creation. The plot/story was completely not-wot. It's about as close to WoT as I-Robot is to the actual Asimov book called I-Robot is. Yet, RJ Approved it and was happy.

Even RJ's own "casting" list, went against his own character descriptions. What I'm getting at is... The Man wasn't picky about adaptations of his works. I don't think he gave a flying frying pan about half the crap his fans did. I'm pretty sure he's told some of his fans to go inflate a donkey because they needed to touch grass.

I am pretty far from a book purist or cult like fan.  I never idolized Jordan or the series.  Most fan thing I ever engaged in was Dragonmount and some youtube last few years.  For me and my enjoyment of story I think a feminist adaptation will change or remove lots of aspects of series that I enjoyed.  I am not sure if Rafe even has a soldier or military consultant on staff.  It doesnt even have to be a male voice just someone whose life experience gave them some of Jordans perspective.  Lots of secondary characters I loved were some variation of this voice. Rhuarc, Tam, Cadsuane, Moraine,  Siuan and lots of Aiel and Borderlanders.  People who were experienced, world weary, but still wise.  People who understood violence( ultimate cheat code), power, and human frailty.  Jordans books showed that people irregardless of gender, sexuality, or race are the problem and the solution.  Lots of idealism and aspirational thought turns to crap when someone uses violence.

 

The book explored this with different martial cultures roma ticizing peace but ultimately knowing that violence was their best or only tool.  Peace favor your sword.  Way of the leaf.  In the show the patriarchy is the ultimate villain.  Peace as shown by Tinkers is a reachable utopia except for violent men. It is a fantasy show owned by Amazon so they can do whatever they want.  I just dont think this story will be as entertaining if the story is approached the way season 1 approached it irregardless of all the obstacles it faced.  Maybe I will be wrong.  I hope so because a well told story from a female perspective doesnt bother me at all.  I just don't get any extra value from it being a feminist perspective.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

20 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I think we will very much see the forsaken coming back in different bodies, because it forshadows Rands spirit swapping with Moridin at the end. 
 

Really it isn’t that hard to do, a forsaken does and later on they return with a different actor. Also Halima (make channeler in a female body) plays an important role. 

Well shucks, that sucks for the actors who don’t get to stick around! I agree that it’s doable, just wondering if the show will go through the potential hassle of recasting and presenting it in a coherent way. We shall see! If they do it and do it well, then it could provide some exquisite twists and surprises for the unsullied viewers 

Edited August 13, 2023 by Lightfriendsocialmistress

[SinisterDeath]

8 hours ago, Guire said:

Peace as shown by Tinkers is a reachable utopia except for violent men. It is a fantasy show owned by Amazon so they can do whatever they want.  I just dont think this story will be as entertaining if the story is approached the way season 1 approached it irregardless of all the obstacles it faced.  Maybe I will be wrong.  I hope so because a well told story from a female perspective doesnt bother me at all.  I just don't get any extra value from it being a feminist perspective.

We only got a snippit of the Tinkers culture in the show, and I don't recall if they went all in on the "gypsy/roma" side of it; E.g. where the Tinkers would be run out of towns for "stealing" anything not nailed down, including their youth... (There's been a lot of push back about showing that specific group of real-world people like that these days, and it can be a touchy subject.)

 

But largely even in the books the "They are peaceful, except for the violent men" is largely book accurate. (see rhuidean chapters)

 

Books vs Show, Books women (except Aiel) were less likely to use a blade to kill. They were more likely to use words, and Guile. Men were more likely to use Swords & sling Balefire.

 

In the show, we're seeing women have more action sequences than what we saw in the books, but that's also because in the books we have sequences were a lot of the action was "off screen" and the combat was "inferred" to have happened.

Like I said, I get it. I understand the worry that they'll push all the negative onto the male characters. All we can do is WAFO. Right now, a lot of this *waves hands around* is just speculating, and then getting worked up over that speculation.

[Elder_Haman]

10 hours ago, Guire said:

In the show the patriarchy is the ultimate villain.

I think this is a bit of a stretch. Remember, the nature of the "villain" changed for each of the characters as the books went on. (Rand thought he had killed the Dark One being the obvious example).

 

We've certainly seen some heavy-handedness and bad writing, but we also need to allow some room for the idea that our expectations are being set up to be subverted. There's a lot of story to be told yet, and as we well know things do not stay the same in the world of the Wheel of Time. 

[Guire]

4 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think this is a bit of a stretch. Remember, the nature of the "villain" changed for each of the characters as the books went on. (Rand thought he had killed the Dark One being the obvious example).

 

We've certainly seen some heavy-handedness and bad writing, but we also need to allow some room for the idea that our expectations are being set up to be subverted. There's a lot of story to be told yet, and as we well know things do not stay the same in the world of the Wheel of Time. 

Its a lot of hyperbole but I cant see how any anti patriarchy story(the borderlands episodes) or anti elitism( the old wisdom) will really enhance or serve the show.  It feels like some of the nudity thrown into GoT.  Just a bit of fan service to the audience they think they are serving.

[SinisterDeath]

21 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

1) He loved the TV Series Merlin, and wished the WoT tv series could be just as good.

I updated the link to the correct Merlin. 1998's Merlin, not 2008's.

[DreadLord31]

On 8/12/2023 at 9:38 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Even RJ's own "casting" list, went against his own character descriptions. What I'm getting at is... The Man wasn't picky about adaptations of his works.

Do you have a link to this? I would LOvE to read who RJ would have casted…didn’t know such a thing existed. 
 

Your larger point I agree with. RJ just wanted to see his work expand, he wasn’t a “I must have control & it must be what I pictured” kind of guy. 
 

I also agree, we will have to wait and see. Funny to me though, I thought @Guire would jump all over my dislike comment & that the show is all about girl power & gonna cut all the crap women did to men in the books. Seems he completely agrees though. I like the comments about the “old soldier” perspective. That’s spot on. And I don’t know what S2 will give us, but I hope even a self-identified feminist can recognize the larger world truth that RJ brilliantly wrote in and someone on here accurately described as “people are the problem and the solution.” 
 

My addition to that would be, I think RJ subtly brought out the truism that “power corrupts”. 

[Scarloc99]

On 8/12/2023 at 8:18 PM, DreadLord31 said:

The show is all about “girl power”. So yes, they’ll cut Gaul. But Bain and Chiad were already cast, so no, they’re not cut. 
 

watch this video: 

 

You can't have Bain and Chiad without Gaul, those stories are tightly tied together, and, like I said Gaul is tightly tied to Perrin's story. 

[DreadLord31]

On 8/12/2023 at 3:54 PM, Elder_Haman said:

 

On 8/12/2023 at 2:18 PM, DreadLord31 said:

The show is all about “girl power”. So yes, they’ll cut Gaul.

I doubt they cut Gaul. His arc is too tied into Perrin’s. 

 

There’s some circumstantial/speculative evidence they cut Gaul already (but forgive me for not including links - I don’t have that kind of time today, maybe @SinisterDeath can do it?) 

 

1) They showed Avi, Bain, and Chiad cast for this season but nothing I’ve seen about a Gaul casting. 

2) There’s a recent article about how Avi joins Perrin and helps him hunt for the horn [Avi replacing Gaul - more support for my “all about girl-power” argument].

 

3) As to my knowledge, I don’t think we’ve seen any male Aiel in any promos, teasers, photos, or casting lists. And it makes sense budget and actor wise to expand Avi’s role in This Season. How to do that? Replace Gaul with Avi… 

 

If we do see Gaul this season, I will be so surprised and pleased. I’ll come back on this thread and recant. Even about my all about “girl power” comment. I just doubt it. 
 

[Vartija]

21 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Do you have a link to this? I would LOvE to read who RJ would have casted…didn’t know such a thing existed. 

https://wot-tidbits.tumblr.com/post/101100543492/wot-casting-by-robert-jordan

[Guire]

11 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

) As to my knowledge, I don’t think we’ve seen any male Aiel in any promos, teasers, photos, or casting lists. And it makes sense budget and actor wise to expand Avi’s role in This Season. How to do that? Replace Gaul with Avi… 

We have seen the dead Aielman in mining town.  I wont be shocked if Rhuarc and Gaul are cut or possibly background characters with few lines.  I think Avi, bain, chiad and some Wise Ones will main Aiel see.

[DreadLord31]

2 minutes ago, Guire said:

We have seen the dead Aielman in mining town. 

Was that even a real person/actor? I guess my point is that casting wise we haven’t seen that any Aiel men are cast. I think in S2, Aiel wise, Avi Bain and Chiad will be the only Aiel we see. Hope I’m wrong…