Where will S2 take the WoT

[DreadLord31]

Alright. This discussion has inspired me to do another re-watch and actually catalogue the differences/all the decisions the writers made to deviate from the book. And so that @WhiteVeils doesn't feel the need to passionately defend the show, I won't comment on whether I think the differences are good or bad differences; I just wanted to note all the points of deviation so that going forward into S2 we can keep track of if the writers are consistent within their own world. 

 

So let me start with Ep1:

#1. Cold opening: rather than Lewis Therin killing his wife, we get: "We don't know if the Dragon was reborn as a boy or a girl"; Moiraine and Lan set out on a quest to find the Dragon. Liandrin and Reds gentle a crazy male channeler. Liandrin's line seems to suggest that when males touch the source it makes it filthy for women. Moiraine and Lan don't seem to care because "it's not him". 

 

#2. Egwene is inducted into the women's circle by being pushed off a cliff into a river. 

 

#3. Perrin is married to a character not in the books, who is pregnant. But Perrin has eyes for Egwene and perhaps a bad marriage because his wife suspects (whether Perrin had feelings for Egwene is apparently book debatable though). Perrin is conflicted. 

 

#4. Matt has a womanizer for a father and a drunk for a mother. He's already a gambler, but not lucky. His friends are bailing him out. 

 

#5. The Two Rivers is very racially diverse (i.e Rand isn't an obvious outsider in his own "home-town"). 

 

#6. Rand and Egwene "do it" (i.e the Two Rivers women aren't prudish). 

 

#7. Egwene is going to choose being a wisdom over a relationship with Rand; wisdoms can't marry or have children (not explained why). 

 

#8. Moiraine doesn't wear her iconic headpiece or have her gandalf staff (Jordan was remarkably detailed about everything - including wardrobe). 

 

#9. Matt is a thief (sells something he stole to Padan Fain and dialogue suggests they've done this before). 

 

#10. Nynaeve might be the dragon because their is "no record" of her birth and she's an outsider, not sure how old she is (though suspected she's older?) 

 

#11. One Trolloc attacks the farm. We got a shot of the heron mark on the sword, but Tam can't take it down without Rand saving him. 

 

#12. Moiraine destroys the Inn to kill the Trollocs. 

 

#13. Nynaeve gets dragged off by a Trolloc. 

 

#14. All the characters have the same motivation for leaving the TR (the Trollocs are coming for them because "one of you four is the Dragon") 

 

oh, I forgot, 

and #15: Perrin kills his pregnant wife with an ax in the heat of the battle; he and his wife can kill 3 Trollocs with ax and hammer, Lan and Moiraine kill (50? Trollocs)? 

 

Now, again, not commenting on whether they are good or bad changes, I think I kind of see the reasoning (even book wise) in making these changes because an adaptation has to be so much shorter. Just want to catalogue them so we're talking about the same things. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

6 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Perrin is married to a character not in the books

Laila is in the books - Perrin encounters her in book 4 as a young mother and specifically thinks about how he might have married her.  Although she is an ordinary farmwife and not a blacksmith.

[DreadLord31]

Episode 2:

 

#1. Cold open - Whitecloak burning an Aes Sedai at the stake (Whitecloaks are the main threat to Aes Sedai? I'll concede this is debatable if it's a difference from the book(s) but it's definitely not the case in the EotW). WoT as a whole, book wise, had an antagonist problem.) 

 

#2. The EF4 think Nynaeve is dead. 

 

#3. Something I forgot from Ep1, Moiraine is badly injured, took a Trolloc blade to the shoulder (and it was established with Tam's wound that that means it is poisoned or something). 

 

#4. Perrin is injured on his leg & having flashbacks of killing his wife, the other EF4 think Laila killed by Trollocs. 

 

#5. All of the EF4 are having dream invasions (it's the same dream or close to it.)  

 

#6. Moiraine, Lan, and EF4 questioned by a Questioner (Valda) who has 7 Aes Sedai "trophy" rings. 

 

#7. A wolf licks Perrin's leg wound.

 

#8. Lan hasn't seen sign of Trollocs in days, and then they've suddenly found them ... run! (I.e Lan ain't that great at detecting shadowspawn). 

 

#9. Shadar Logoth doesn't have a gate there's just a massive crack in the wall. In fact, they built the city that way. 

 

#10. Matt gives a Laila-made dagger to Perrin, then "finds" the Shadar Logoth dagger in a pile of garbage.

 

#11. No Mordeth scene. 

 

#12. Moiraine tells Lan, "You killed us all." for taking them into Shadar Logoth". 

 

#13. The only horses we see escape with their riders are Lan's and Moiraine's. We saw one horse die. Nooo Bela!! 

 

#14. Nynaeve sneaks up on Lan and holds him at knife point. 

Edited June 3, 2023 by DreadLord31

[DreadLord31]

1 hour ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Laila is in the books - Perrin encounters her in book 4 as a young mother and specifically thinks about how he might have married her.  Although she is an ordinary farmwife and not a blacksmith.

 

You have a better memory than me for RJ's hundreds of named but insignificant characters! I should have added in the disclaimer that book wise I've only read the whole series twice and I'm trying to do this by memory, not book in hand... 🙂

Edited June 2, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Samt]

13 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

You have a better memory than me for RJ's hundreds of named but insignificant characters! I should have added in the disclaimer that book wise I've only read the whole series twice and I'm trying to do this by memory, not book in hand... 🙂

Frankly, saying that Laila is in the books is like saying that Stepin and Kerene are in the books.  It's technically true that there is a book character with that name that has a similar background to the show character.  But the position in the narrative is ultimately so different that it's a bit silly to say they are the same character.  

[Skipp]

58 minutes ago, Samt said:

Frankly, saying that Laila is in the books is like saying that Stepin and Kerene are in the books.  It's technically true that there is a book character with that name that has a similar background to the show character.  But the position in the narrative is ultimately so different that it's a bit silly to say they are the same character.  

I would say that situation that Perrin and Laila have in the show actually makes alot of sense when compared to the books. 

 

In the books the Boys leave EF when they are late 18 early 19, in the show they leave when they are 20.  Perrin remarks that if he had stayed in EF he would have likely married Laila.  Well considering they stay an extra year+ the events turned out as Perrin had speculated.

 

Even Laila's switch from farm wife to Blacksmith can logically follow that way of thinking.  Getting together with Perrin allowed her to learn a new trade.

[Samt]

5 hours ago, Skipp said:

I would say that situation that Perrin and Laila have in the show actually makes alot of sense when compared to the books. 

 

In the books the Boys leave EF when they are late 18 early 19, in the show they leave when they are 20.  Perrin remarks that if he had stayed in EF he would have likely married Laila.  Well considering they stay an extra year+ the events turned out as Perrin had speculated.

 

Even Laila's switch from farm wife to Blacksmith can logically follow that way of thinking.  Getting together with Perrin allowed her to learn a new trade.

If you look at it from the perspective of two alternate realities, then I guess that makes sense.  I'm just saying that from a story telling perspective the characters are completely different.  It's only that they have the same name that we are even comparing them.  

[expat]

On 6/1/2023 at 3:04 PM, DreadLord31 said:

Alright. This discussion has inspired me to do another re-watch and actually catalogue the differences/all the decisions the writers made to deviate from the book. And so that @WhiteVeils doesn't feel the need to passionately defend the show, I won't comment on whether I think the differences are good or bad differences; I just wanted to note all the points of deviation so that going forward into S2 we can keep track of if the writers are consistent within their own world. 

 

So let me start with Ep1:

#1. Cold opening: rather than Lewis Therin killing his wife, we get: "We don't know if the Dragon was reborn as a boy or a girl"; Moiraine and Lan set out on a quest to find the Dragon. Liandrin and Reds gentle a crazy male channeler. Liandrin's line seems to suggest that when males touch the source it makes it filthy for women. Moiraine and Lan don't seem to care because "it's not him". 

 

#2. Egwene is inducted into the women's circle by being pushed off a cliff into a river. 

I think you're creating a strawman here.  I'll address the first two points because I think the opening of the first episode is spot on perfect.  

 

Your first problem is that the cold opening of the book is mostly a LTT POV, so it can't be filmed.  Yes, you can adapt it fairly easily to be close to the book - a man is wandering about a house with a lot of dead bodies calling out for his wife when another man appears who tells him that he is mad and killed them, leading to the first man traveling to the wastes and [big special effect] calls down fire and creates Dragonmount.  There a couple of problems with this adaptation however.  First, you expose Ishy in the opening scene instead of episode 8, you conclusively show that Ishy is not Dark One since at this point it's prison has been sealed, and you are in an exposition heavy opening (not the way you want to open the series).

 

The second problem is that the actual series opening doesn't contradict anything in the books, so it's not really a difference, just something that might have occurred off-screen.  It is also a perfect opening in that it clearly lays out the main tension of the entire series - you need a channeling man to defeat the Dark One, but the taint drives him mad and makes him extremely dangerous.  Despite the "who is the Dragon" fuss, I think this cold opening clearly shows that the Dragon is going to be a man, thus the tension, and secondarily introduced Liandrin as an antagonist.  Rand was foreshadowed from the first scene.

 

Your second difference has the same problem.  The introduction of someone into the Women's Circle takes place off-screen, so it doesn't contradict anything in the books.  I think it works well because of the contrast to the first scene, male half tainted and dangerous, the women half requires submission to the one power.  Two scenes, the two halves of the one power metaphorically defined.

[Skipp]

7 minutes ago, Samt said:

If you look at it from the perspective of two alternate realities, then I guess that makes sense.  I'm just saying that from a story telling perspective the characters are completely different.  It's only that they have the same name that we are even comparing them.  

Well it has been said to take the show as another turning of the wheel.  Mostly the same events with some different Details?

 

And how are the characters completely different?  Perrin is still a large man who his dealing with some serious issues with the nature of violence.  Rand is still a love sick sap who is destined to destroy/save the world.  Mat is still a character who struggles with doing the right thing verses the easy thing.  There are details of their characters that are different but the characters themselves are largely the same.

[Samt]

24 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Well it has been said to take the show as another turning of the wheel.  Mostly the same events with some different Details?

 

And how are the characters completely different?  Perrin is still a large man who his dealing with some serious issues with the nature of violence.  Rand is still a love sick sap who is destined to destroy/save the world.  Mat is still a character who struggles with doing the right thing verses the easy thing.  There are details of their characters that are different but the characters themselves are largely the same.

I was saying that book Laila and show Laila are completely different (and Kerene and Stepin book vs. show). A lot has changed for the other characters, too. But I wouldn’t say they are completely different.

[Samt]

Maybe Rand Paul is the dragon reborn in the current age.

[DreadLord31]

14 hours ago, expat said:

I think you're creating a strawman here.  I'll address the first two points because I think the opening of the first episode is spot on perfect.  

 

Your first problem is that the cold opening of the book is mostly a LTT POV, so it can't be filmed.  Yes, you can adapt it fairly easily to be close to the book - a man is wandering about a house with a lot of dead bodies calling out for his wife when another man appears who tells him that he is mad and killed them, leading to the first man traveling to the wastes and [big special effect] calls down fire and creates Dragonmount.  There a couple of problems with this adaptation however.  First, you expose Ishy in the opening scene instead of episode 8, you conclusively show that Ishy is not Dark One since at this point it's prison has been sealed, and you are in an exposition heavy opening (not the way you want to open the series).

 

The second problem is that the actual series opening doesn't contradict anything in the books, so it's not really a difference, just something that might have occurred off-screen.  It is also a perfect opening in that it clearly lays out the main tension of the entire series - you need a channeling man to defeat the Dark One, but the taint drives him mad and makes him extremely dangerous.  Despite the "who is the Dragon" fuss, I think this cold opening clearly shows that the Dragon is going to be a man, thus the tension, and secondarily introduced Liandrin as an antagonist.  Rand was foreshadowed from the first scene.

 

Your second difference has the same problem.  The introduction of someone into the Women's Circle takes place off-screen, so it doesn't contradict anything in the books.  I think it works well because of the contrast to the first scene, male half tainted and dangerous, the women half requires submission to the one power.  Two scenes, the two halves of the one power metaphorically defined.

 

Your argument makes no sense to me. I'm not commenting on whether they are good or bad changes/differences or if the changes they made, made sense. The comparison is just to show (hey, this wasn't in the books and is in the show = a difference). That's not a straw-man. To say, "well, this could have happened in the books" that is a straw-man. My whole point is that it didn't! 

 

And obviously, it being an adaptation ... There's not going to be 1-to-1 stuff. So I "should" be able to find a bunch of "differences". I'm just trying to catalogue all the points of difference so that others can argue whether they make sense or are good for an adaption (but are talking about the same thing). 

 

Hence, your argument makes no sense - because all I'm pointing to is that the cold opening of the show was different than the cold opening of the book & that the Women's circle scene is ones imagination of what an induction into the WC looked like (but that's different than the books because we never read what it looked like in the books). 

 

But, what YOU are doing - is, more or less, what I hope for in doing this rewatch ... You are commenting on whether the differences make sense within the world of WoT for an adaptation. And you think they do/are perfect. That's great! 

 

But what doesn't make sense is to argue that it's not different. 

 

So probably, the confusion came in in defining terms. I'm defining a change/difference as - this wasn't in the books and was in the show. 

Edited June 3, 2023 by DreadLord31

[WhiteVeils]

If the show shows Matt and Couladin's fight, does that count as a change or not? 

[DreadLord31]

32 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

If the show shows Matt and Couladin's fight, does that count as a change or not? 

 

Um, probably yes, my memory of the later books isnt as good.

 

I only vaguely remember that part because the whole Shaido story-arc was super long and tedious and kind of bored me? Do you have the book entry your talking about? If RJ didn't write a scene with their fight but we just know about it later and the show "shows" that scene because ... Hey it happened, but wouldn't it be better if we "saw" it? Yep, I'd still list that as a difference (if my book memory was good enough). 

 

And that would be an example of what (I think) most people would argue is a good change. 

 

If your point is that it's a different medium so that by definition that means it's all changed/differences ... That's a bit of straw-man of what I'm doing. But is a well-taken point that maybe defining the term "difference" needs even more clarity because of the medium difference and I should think on that. 

 

Like, is it a "difference" that Rosamund Pike is taller than book Moiraine? Ehhh yeah - I could have listed that (again because RJ was so ridiculously detailed) but it doesn't "flag" in my head as a difference like it would if Rand was the shortest person in the Village. Or if his name wasn't Rand, but Paul. Or if he was really pining after Perrin and not Egwene. 

 

So "difference" needs some tightening up. Point taken. Thought will be given. But it's not true that everything is automatically "different" for a different medium. 

Edited June 3, 2023 by DreadLord31

[expat]

27 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

Your argument makes no sense to me. I'm not commenting on whether they are good or bad changes/differences or if the changes they made, made sense. The comparison is just to show (hey, this wasn't in the books and is in the show = a difference). That's not a straw-man. To say, "well, this could have happened in the books" that is a straw-man. My whole point is that it didn't! 

The strawman is that a one-to-one scene match is somehow meaningful. 

 

First, as I mentioned in the thread on adaptation, maybe 50% of the book is in POV mode, which is not filmable as written.  Taking the important bits from the POV segments and introducing them into the show, is by definition, 100% different from the book.  You do agree that there are lots of things in the POVs that need to be included in the series in some form or another?

 

Second, is the goal of the series to show individual scenes or to tell the story/capture the essence of the books?  Concentrating on individual scenes (IMHO) is very much not seeing the forest from the trees.

[expat]

6 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

I only vaguely remember that part because the whole Shaido story-arc was super long and tedious and kind of bored me? Do you have the book entry your talking about? If RJ didn't write a scene with their fight but we just know about it later and the show "shows" that scene because ... Hey it happened, but wouldn't it be better if we "saw" it? Yep, I'd still list that as a difference (if my book memory was good enough). 

The referenced fight took place off-screen as you surmised.

Edited June 3, 2023 by expat

[DigificWriter]

On 6/1/2023 at 2:04 PM, DreadLord31 said:

Perrin has eyes for Egwene and perhaps a bad marriage

 

This is incorrect.

 

There was no 'love triangle' between Rand/Perrin/Egwene or any unrequited romance between Perrin and Egwene presented in the TV series. Rather than doing the clearly intended thing in Episode 7 - realizing that Nynaeve was wrong - certain parts of the WoT fandom took her comment about the nature of the interpersonal dynamic between Rand, Perrin, and Egwene as literal fact and cried foul over something that didn't actually exist.

 

If you're going to make a record of individual changes/deviations, you actually need to be accurate in describing said changes/deviations.

Edited June 3, 2023 by DigificWriter

[DreadLord31]

So, what I find interesting in a re-watch doing this - trying to remember the books and trying to note the "differences" ...

Is that I'm actually becoming LESS critical of the writers. 

Cause man oh man is their job impossible. And I'm actually liking the show better so far. 

 

Because as I'm thinking about it, a bunch of the changes even that I catalogued ... I think are actually really necessary to attempt to tell such a ridiculously massive and detailed story in a different medium with so much less time. 

 

Like, even the change with Laila. I'm actually "coming around" that they maybe need that. Because, as I just commented, RJ really drug that story-arc (Perrin's relationship troubles and conflictedness and cautiousness and guilt) out. This fast tracks things with Faile.

 

 

 

[WhiteVeils]

13 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

Um, probably yes, my memory of the later books isnt as good.

 

I only vaguely remember that part because the whole Shaido story-arc was super long and tedious and kind of bored me? Do you have the book entry your talking about? If RJ didn't write a scene with their fight but we just know about it later and the show "shows" that scene because ... Hey it happened, but wouldn't it be better if we "saw" it? Yep, I'd still list that as a difference (if my book memory was good enough). 

The fight between Mat and Couladin only is described as one of Mat's memories while he is drinking afterwards. It is Fires of Heaven. It's not depicted on the page. It is obviously a very important moment.  I was just wondering how that would fall in your classification.

[DreadLord31]

7 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

This is incorrect.

 

There was no 'love triangle' between Rand/Perrin/Egwene or any unrequited romance between Perrin and Egwene presented in the TV series. Rather than doing the clearly intended thing in Episode 7 - realizing that Nynaeve was wrong - certain parts of the WoT fandom took her comment about the nature of the interpersonal dynamic between Rand, Perrin, and Egwene as literal fact and cried foul over something that didn't actually exist.

 

If you're going to make a record of individual changes/deviations, you actually need to be accurate in describing said changes/deviations.

 

Bro. You need a rewatch. They definitely, definitely in the show wrote in that Perrin romantically has feelings for Egwene ... And Fandom apparently argues whether that was the case/is an interpretation of the books. 

 

Seems to me that you A) think it's definitely NOT the case that their was a Rand/Perrin/Egwene love triangle in the books. We agree there. 

 

But B) think that their isn't one in the show? Because there is. 

 

So you're actually agreeing with me that there's a difference there. 

[WhiteVeils]

10 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

This is incorrect.

 

There was no 'love triangle' between Rand/Perrin/Egwene or any unrequited romance between Perrin and Egwene presented in the TV series. Rather than doing the clearly intended thing in Episode 7 - realizing that Nynaeve was wrong - certain parts of the WoT fandom took her comment about the nature of the interpersonal dynamic between Rand, Perrin, and Egwene as literal fact and cried foul over something that didn't actually exist.

 

If you're going to make a record of individual changes/deviations, you actually need to be accurate in describing said changes/deviations.

Absolutely! The character's being wrong about their assumptions is a huge theme in WOT.  Perrin had guilt  rebounding back on him from Machin Shin, but he had been holding Egwene in the Caraline pans, and may very well have had a shine for Egwene before his marriage, which would feed into his guilt, and Nynaeves erroneous assumptions, but he never showed anything but  brotherly love for Egwene in the series.  And nothing in the show depicted Layla and Perrin's relationship as bad. It looked to me like Layla just may have been a bit jealous of Egwene and the shine Perrin may have had for her before thier marriage. If she was working instead of partying with Egwene because of jealousy, it's a great precursor to Perrin and Faile's relationship, where Perrin assumes Faile is jealous all the time.

[DreadLord31]

5 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

I was just wondering how that would fall in your classification.

 

Yup, I accept your point/premise that one needs to give thought to the medium difference in defining "changes". I'll give it thought - refine my thinking / how I'm defining a "difference". 

[WhiteVeils]

13 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

Bro. You need a rewatch. They definitely, definitely in the show wrote in that Perrin romantically has feelings for Egwene ... And Fandom apparently argues whether that was the case/is an interpretation of the books. 

 

Seems to me that you A) think it's definitely NOT the case that their was a Rand/Perrin/Egwene love triangle in the books. We agree there. 

 

But B) think that their isn't one in the show? Because there is. 

 

So you're actually agreeing with me that there's a difference there. 

 

No.  A love triangle means two people at the same time have affection for a third person, and that third person is torn between the two but does not pick one or the other.  A triangle.

That is absolutely not what happens in the show.

In the show the sequence looks to be:

1. Perrin feels romantic feelings towards Egwene but does not act on them or tell Egwene.
2. Nynaeve notices Perrin's feelings but says nothing.
3. Rand and Egwene begin a romantic relationship.
4. Perrin and Layla begin a romantic relationship, fall in love, and marry.
5. Layla may feel some unstated, unexpressed jealousy towards Egwene and Perrin's past feelings towards her and chooses not to attend her ceremony. However, Perrin still clearly loves Layla and she loves him.
6.  Perrin accidentally kills Layla and is filled with self-punishing guilt and horror.
7. Perrin and Egwene are forced to be together on the Caraline plains. He holds her, takes care of her, etc, and never ever once touches her or confesses any romantic feeling towards her,
8. With the tinkers, Perrin is happy to see Egwene dance with Aram and shows no jealousy of them (unlike in the books where Perrin is jealous of Aram being with Egwene several times in that sequence)
9. In the Ways, Machin Shin feeds Perrin's self-hating guilt back on him by saying that he killed Layla on purpose because of the past feelings towards Egwene.   This is guilt, not Truth.
10. Rand and Egwene are fighting because Rand is intentionally trying to push her away, and Perrin steps in to defend her.  Nynaeve, stressed and wrong, thinks its based on Perrin's old feelings (In the books, Nynaeve is terrible at seeing how the younger EFers have grown up and changed), and accuses that fight as being a fight over Egwene.
11. She realizes it is wrong immediately and apologizes.
12. Rand, using the fuel to push everyone away, accuses Perrin of starting to go with Layla when he got together with Egwene. STILL nothing current even if Rand were right.
13. Perrin makes absolutely clear that Layla is the only woman he has ever loved, and EVERYONE believes him.
    
    So should we.  People are allowed to have childhood crushes and past relationships and it not be a love triangle. I'm not in a love triangle with my old boyfriends.  Let alone a love triangle with my old crushes I never spoke to. That's ridiculous.

Edited June 3, 2023 by WhiteVeils

[DigificWriter]

@WhiteVeils There's a strong implication in Episode 1 that Laila had recently suffered a miscarriage and had intentionally isolated herself by refusing to participate in any village activities in general, not specifically or exclusively Egwene's Women's Circle initiation.

 

@DreadLord31 I'm planning a Season 1 Rewatch beginning next month, but I'm not wrong about anything that I said with regards to the nature of the interpersonal relationships between Rand, Perrin, and Egwene as presented within the series itself, and do not need to rewatch the series in order to have correctly identified what we were shown and the narrative intent behind it.

 

I did want to point out three differences that exist in the show and that are introduced in Episode 1 but that you didn't mention, though:

1) Emond's Field never being referred to as anything other than The Two Rivers (making that designator both the name of the village itself and the region in which it is located)

2) "Listening to the Wind" being explicitly identified as being/being associated with Channeling the One Power

3) The Aes Sedai rejecting a female Channeler (the Wisdom who raised and trained Nynaeve) instead of training her

Edited June 3, 2023 by DigificWriter

[DreadLord31]

Ok, so another - fair point - it would be much more accurate to say: in the show it's implied that Perrin has romantic feelings for Egwene that she doesn't return, that neither of them act upon. 

 

I mean ... Again, it's defining terms - in the books, there was A LOT of pages devoted to ... What I would have called a "love-triangle" between Perrin/Berelain/Faile. But by @WhiteVeils more accurate and precise definition - even in the books that's not technically a "love-triangle".