Where will S2 take the WoT

[DreadLord31]

13 hours ago, Mailman said:

Season 1 was poor especially from a writing POV and near unrecognizable from the source material.

 

What writing decisions did you think were particularly bad? (Other than the Finale - which was indeed - terrible). Up until the Finale, I had hope it could be a decent adaptation ... except for the fact that the main question of S1 was "Who is the Dragon?" ... so, in other words, they indicated immediately that they were NOT writing the show for the fans of the books.

[Mailman]

5 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

What writing decisions did you think were particularly bad? (Other than the Finale - which was indeed - terrible). Up until the Finale, I had hope it could be a decent adaptation ... except for the fact that the main question of S1 was "Who is the Dragon?" ... so, in other words, they indicated immediately that they were NOT writing the show for the fans of the books.

So many.

 

• Perrin married then he kills his blacksmith wife.
• Mat is now a thief.
• Abell Cauthon a drunk and a womanizer, his wife a drunk.
• Egwene and Rand having sex. On the same day the Womans circle deems her a adult.
• Moiraine and Lan bathing together.
• Tam a blademaster can not kill 1 trolloc with aid of Rand. Why was only 1 trolloc sent to the al'thor farm
• Nynaeve able to kill a trolloc 1vs1 with no channeling or even having a weapon before stealing one from the trolloc
• Nynaeve able to sneak up on Lan. Track him maybe but too get close enough to kill him without him knowing, garbage.
• Moiraine announcing to the whole village she is aes sedai then spending most of the rest of the episodes as a wounded passenger.
• Emonds Field looks like a collection of squalid hovels.
• Shadar Logoth apparently a city with no gate. WTF
• Mordeth not encountered in Shadar Logoth
• Thom a thief
• Whitecloaks recommending Aes Sedai healing.

Those are big issues from the first 3 episodes.

 

Also

• Moiraine is a shadow of the character from the books gone is her drive and intelligence.
• Lan is no longer cold and hard he is just another character.
• The who is the Dragon mystery was pointless.
• Characters are woefully underdeveloped.
• Magic system and world building are almost nonexistent.
• Final episode is just terrible the entire battle scene is nothing short of embarrassing, even allowing for CGI covid issues.

For me the entire first season's writing is basically on a CW DC level.

[DreadLord31]

34 minutes ago, Mailman said:

For me the entire first season's writing is basically on a CW DC level.

 

Arrow was pretty good 🙂

I thought the writing level of WoT S1 was much worse! Lol

For all the reasons you listed, but also:

• from the opening scenes "we don't know if the dragon was reborn as a boy or a girl" - and the choice to make season one about "who is the dragon?" they were effectively communicating "this show isn't for the book fans".
• They only had 8 episodes to tell a massive story and spent an entire episode on a non-book character
•  They decided to write in relationship tension by suggesting that Perrin was into Egwene. 
• They decided that in the final battle the women would walk out & apparently do nothing until all the men (one of whom who is suppose to be one of the greatest generals in the world) are dead; and then a few women who don't know what they are doing kill ALL the bad guys. 
• They gave us nothing really on the Forsaken...
• They made a big deal of a relationship that was (maybe hinted at in the books) really nothing (Siuan and Moiraine). 
• We got so little time with all of the characters that we care about none of them 
• Nynaeve appeared dead. Loial appeared dead. Moiraine appears stilled. [At best they are poorly communicating in the show].
• I could go on and on

 

But on a positive note: 

• the actors did well with what they were given
• the costuming was excellent
• A few scenes (E7 cold open) were very good
• They had some legit excuses

But, for me, S2 needs to be a lot better!

 

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by DreadLord31

[WhiteVeils]

12 hours ago, Mailman said:

• Perrin married then he kills his blacksmith wife.  - Not an issue with writing, just a difference from the book.
• Mat is now a thief. - Not an issue with writing, just a difference from the book.  (Also, not necessarily true)
• Abell Cauthon a drunk and a womanizer, his wife a drunk. - - Not an issue with writing, just a difference from the book.
• Egwene and Rand having sex. On the same day the Womans circle deems her a adult.- Not an issue with writing, just a difference from the book.
• Moiraine and Lan bathing together.- Not an issue with writing, just a difference from the book.
• Tam a blademaster can not kill 1 trolloc with aid of Rand. Why was only 1 trolloc sent to the al'thor farm- Not an issue with writing.  A change made to accommodate the fact that multiple trollocs would not be able to navigate within the set.
• Nynaeve able to kill a trolloc 1vs1 with no channeling or even having a weapon before stealing one from the trolloc- Not an issue with writing, just a difference from the book.
• Nynaeve able to sneak up on Lan. Track him maybe but too get close enough to kill him without him knowing, garbage.- Not an issue with writing, just a difference from the book.
• Moiraine announcing to the whole village she is aes sedai then spending most of the rest of the episodes as a wounded passenger.- Not an issue with writing, just a difference from the book.
• Emonds Field looks like a collection of squalid hovels.- Not an issue with writing, just your opinion of the set.
• Shadar Logoth apparently a city with no gate. WTF - Not an issue with writing...writing explained this difference.
• Mordeth not encountered in Shadar Logoth- Not an issue with writing, just a difference from the book.
• Thom a thief- Not an issue with writing, just a difference from the book. (also not necessarily true)
• Whitecloaks recommending Aes Sedai healing.-  /May/ be an issue with the writing, but does make clear that there are many different kinds of Whitecloaks, and it would have been hard to do in a different way.
   
• Moiraine is a shadow of the character from the books gone is her drive and intelligence. - May be an issue with the writing if it were true.  But it's not. Being different from the books is not an issue with the writing.
  
• Lan is no longer cold and hard he is just another character.  May be an issue with the writing if it were true.  In this case, Lan was not cold and hard in the books...he was just perceived that way by Rand.  Being different from the books is not an issue with the writing.
  
• The who is the Dragon mystery was pointless.  May be an issue with the writing if it were true, but it had a point, you just didn't agree.  Being different from the books is not an issue with the writing.
  
• Characters are woefully underdeveloped. May be an issue with the writing if you could specify what it was that was written badly.  Being different from the books is not an issue with the writing.
  
• Magic system and world building are almost nonexistent.  May be an issue with the writing if it was true, but it isn't.  Being different from the books is not an issue with the writing.
  
• Final episode is just terrible the entire battle scene is nothing short of embarrassing, even allowing for CGI covid issues.  May be an issue with the writing if you could specify what it was that was written badly.  Being different from the books is not an issue with the writing.

 

[WhiteVeils]

12 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

• from the opening scenes "we don't know if the dragon was reborn as a boy or a girl" - and the choice to make season one about "who is the dragon?" they were effectively communicating "this show isn't for the book fans". - Not for purist book fans. They did write it to be approachable for non-fans, though, and there are many more of those.
• They only had 8 episodes to tell a massive story and spent an entire episode on a non-book character - They spent 15 minutes on a non-book character to set up many things later on.  Once again, differences from the books is not bad writing.
•  They decided to write in relationship tension by suggesting that Perrin was into Egwene.   - Perrin was into Egwene in the books in Eye of the World.
• They decided that in the final battle the women would walk out & apparently do nothing until all the men (one of whom who is suppose to be one of the greatest generals in the world) are dead; and then a few women who don't know what they are doing kill ALL the bad guys.  - Rather than the women walk out and do nothing at all. 
• They gave us nothing really on the Forsaken... - There is nothing on the Forsaken in Eye of the World.   Even when they show up they are not explained.
• They made a big deal of a relationship that was (maybe hinted at in the books) really nothing (Siuan and Moiraine).  - They incorporated elements of New Spring.  This was certainly there.
• We got so little time with all of the characters that we care about none of them - We = You.  Other people have different opinions than you.
• Nynaeve appeared dead. Loial appeared dead. Moiraine appears stilled. [At best they are poorly communicating in the show]. - Once again, being different from the books is not an issue with the writing.

 

[DojoToad]

@WhiteVeils

 

Different from the books is not an issue of writing, but also does not preclude there being issues with the writing.    Change is not always good just as the same is not always bad.

 

[WhiteVeils]

58 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

@WhiteVeils

 

Different from the books is not an issue of writing, but also does not preclude there being issues with the writing.    Change is not always good just as the same is not always bad.

 

You're right. However, citing things that are simply changes from the book as being examples of bad writing fails to make the case.

[DojoToad]

10 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

You're right. However, citing things that are simply changes from the book as being examples of bad writing fails to make the case.

Agreed.

[DreadLord31]

5 hours ago, DojoToad said:

@WhiteVeils

 

Different from the books is not an issue of writing, but also does not preclude there being issues with the writing.    Change is not always good just as the same is not always bad.

 

 

I agree - even as major book fans - there IS a difference between good writing and bad writing. Differences from the book, if written well, are acceptable in my book. Let me give you an example: Thom's character in the show was way different than in the books; but how the Thom of the show was, was in my opinion, better. Another major writing change, that I thought was "a good change, a good change" (line from Robin Hood Men in Tights) was the decision to include and feature Logain more in S1. 

 

Also, @WhiteVeils, I do want to say that I appreciate your comments. Differences in opinion/"arguing" is what makes a forum like this interesting. I truly can't stand the "group-think" and "gatekeeping" that happens WAY too much in today's world. So thank you for sharing your thoughts, which in essence (if I'm hearing you right?) are: different from the books doesn't mean bad! 

 

So now, let me defend why I think the differences from books that I mentioned are not just differences but problematic/bad writing (and not just differences). 

 

#1: Making the choice to make S1 all about "Who is the Dragon?" and having it possible for the Dragon to be Reborn as female is bad writing because:

A) it alienates your hard-core book reading fans completely because there's a host of reasons why the Dragon can't be female (Saidin and Sadar being different and only the male half being tainted and that's the reason they always fear and hunt male channelers...) 

B) even casual fans, who haven't read the books, could google it immediately and find out that Rand is the Dragon; so it's not a compelling question [there is one right answer that can't be debated, that people can easily look up]. Good questions are stuff like: in the Dark Knight, the question of "is it ok to lie and deceive people if it's for a greater good/their protection? are people basically good or basically evil? 

In the Avengers: is it actually loving to kill some people to let other people have "good lives" or is better if everyone has a right to live? I'm hoping S2 has a compelling over-aching question of this nature - perhaps something like "How do you best love someone who is losing their mind?" 

C) their meta-question made it so that they wrote to put believable suspicion, that they could be the Dragon, onto each of the EF5 (including Nyn, which even internally in the show made no sense) - which resulted in none of them being compelling.

 

#2: The episode featuring the funeral/Steppin; I will admit could be really interesting to non-readers; and it does set-up the bond between Warders and Aes Sedai. However, 15 minutes (if it was that) when you only have 480 minutes is pretty significant. And you could set up that same tension in a different way while also actually spending those minutes on a main character! But, I'll concede here, when I first saw it I said - ok, don't like it, but my non-reader brothers thought it was ok, so I'll roll with it. 

 

#3. Disagree. I've read EotW at least 4 times and never thought that. Perrin sees Egwene as a little sister that he has to protect. Like Frozen did - WoT needs to break out of the idea that romantic love or sexual love is the only compelling kind of love. If you want CW style relationship tension written in, it could have been done by Egwene being more interested in herself than interested in Rand whilst he pines after her. 

 

#4. Perhaps they had good excuses for this choice, E.g "Covid". Ideally, you have the women channelers fight with the men; and then, just as the book does, you display DRAGON power at the very end of the season - with Rand single-handedly demolishing them. The way Rand was written for TV, we don't FEAR him, we don't respect him, frankly we don't care that much about him... (not just my opinion - also the opinion of my non-reader friends and brothers). 

 

#5. That's true - Forsaken show up at the end of the EotW books and readers are like: "Who are these people, why do we care?" Great opportunity for the show (as well as going forward) to write better than Jordan did - give us compelling and scary and relatable antagonists (besides Elaida - who was a brilliantly written foil). 

 

#6. Perhaps they've retracted their opinions since - but I do believe that many of the content creators/major fans/critics  ... like Daniel Greene, like Nae'Blis, like Unraveling the Pattern, ect ... all had this complaint. So ... not "just me", but more like a WE, who thought that the characters were undeveloped (and it wasn't a fault of the actors but of the writing decisions)! 

 

#7. Do you honestly think that Nynaeve didn't appear dead? Because I believe official Amazon people have tried to explain that this was a make-up mistake. And it's not just bad writing, it's a MAJOR issue for the whole story going forward. The climax (arguably) of "The Dragon Reborn" is Rand trying to heal death and being rebuked for trying to do such an evil thing. It didn't come across to you that Loial is dead? IF Loial doesn't die, though he's been stabbed by a dagger from Shadar Logoth, you have just as many writing problems as you do if he "only appeared to be dead"; IF you "fake-out" your audience a bunch with fake deaths that then get explained away - it's exactly the same as the bad writing of CW shows (like Arrow that I poked fun of). Game of Thrones massive appeal was that, in part, they actually DID kill off main characters. Until they got out a head of the books ... then it was terrible. WOT should take a hint. Either commit or don't. If Nyn is dead, let her be dead. If Loial is dead, let him be dead. THOSE would be changes that I would go -- hmm, interesting -- could be good! Frankly, if Nyn and Loial were actually dead at the end of S1; I'd feel better about the show so far than what we actually got (just to prove to you that I'm very open to book deviation). Because then, at least, I would say "ok, this really is another turning of the Wheel". As it is, we got bad TV that was loosely based on the beloved WoT books...

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by DreadLord31

[DreadLord31]

I went a looking for the content/sources that back up my point #6, that it's not just me, but more like we who felt like there was poor character development; I found this video - she does a better job than I did of pointing out bad writing! 

 

 

[WhiteVeils]

I watched the video. Very very little of what she cites is a problem with the writing. It is all differences she does not like compared to her interpretation of the book, or (and this is more common) her wanting explanations for everything now when those explanations could be coming in later seasons. Even though she says she likes some of the changes, it doesn't mean she does not feel rigidity in others.

Basically, nothing she says is about the writing. There are parts that I do think have bad writing. But it's not the things people complain about at all. It's bits where the dialogue is clunky, or the pace is rushed.   There are those spots.   The wedding vows scene I think was pretty poor writing, for example, though I understood what they are trying to do. Maybe if that scene were done outside the chamber of sitters, and then Siuan came in and told the whole chamber that the vow had been administered, it wouldn't have seemed that Moiraine was saying such a personal thing 'off script' in the hearing of everyone without anyone calling her on it.  I assume that was not done for the purposes of time.  But that's writing that is completely unrelated to the books or my own expectations of what the series should be based on what I read.

[DreadLord31]

30 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

I watched the video. Very very little of what she cites is a problem with the writing. It is all differences she does not like compared to her interpretation of the book

 

Again, I appreciate that this is your opinion, and you're 100% entitled to it. I definitely disagree though.

 

#1 she cites "lack of attention to detail"; examples given "men/women can't see each other weaves - but in the same episode Logain sees Nyn filled with the power (they can't be consistent in their own story).

 

#2. character development choices/lacking follow-through; for example, the decision to have Perrin kill his wife (which she really disliked) and feel guilt over it because perhaps all along he had feelings for Egwene. That's a writing decision that is different from the books. But it's also bad writing, because we never got any kind of pay-off or interplay or resolution. Now, I think your fair point is, maybe we'll get that pay-off in a later season. Fair. But, none-the-less, in THIS season it felt botched. How they wrote Egwene - actually took away from Egwene's agency and interest and strength (and they wrote her that way because she's Taveren & a potential Dragon) - in other words, they can't have women BE women and be strong. Mistake, and more boring. The main character of WoT is Rand - everyone knows that - but because they didn't want it to be obvious that he is the Dragon - they made him bland. I totally agree there. 

 

Now, again - my main criticism of the writing is that it lacked wrestling with important questions. The question was "Who is the Dragon?" There's one right answer that can be easily googled. They need to wrestle with compelling questions. If you listen to Robert Jordan's own mega-question when writing EotW it's "How would small-town, regular, people react to 'you're the Savior of the world'?" and he thought they would resist and disbelieve and say 'forget you, I just want to be left alone', ect... 

I think the show could deviate - ask a different question - that's fine. But ask a compelling question! Ask a question like: "IF the reality of life is reincarnation (the Eastern view of the World), is that good?" 

Ask: "If you're loved one is going insane, how do you best care for them?"

Ask: "What is the best way to fight injustice? Violence/Peace? Force/Submission?" 

Ask: "Is one's life shaped by what randomly happens to them or can you control your own destiny?" 

 

Ask a decent question! Who is the Dragon? A) isn't a mystery, and B) isn't compelling

In order for S2 to be written well - it needs a compelling question! In my opinion...

And maybe they'll get there. 

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Mailman]

10 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

I'm not going through them all but you dont think it is terrible writing that Tam a Sword wielding trained blade master is unable to kill a trolloc, but that Nynaeve a untrained and unarmed 60 kg woman can. 

 

Nynaeve is able to not only track Lan but get close enough to kill him if she chooses. Best of the best warriors in the world?

 

Lan was perceived that way emotionally that way throughout almost the entire series. His small emotes like slight turns of the head or slight widening of the eyes are treated as large signs of surprise.

 

Whitecloaks scene please. Valda who was standing very close to Bornhald has killed multiple Aes Sedai and you defend the recommendation of healing from them.

[WhiteVeils]

5 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Also, @WhiteVeils, I do want to say that I appreciate your comments. D

Thank you. 

5 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

#1: Making the choice to make S1 all about "Who is the Dragon?" and having it possible for the Dragon to be Reborn as female is bad writing because:

A) it alienates your hard-core book reading fans completely.

As explained previously...the audience is not only rigid book fans. Also, it's not necessarily possible in the show for the Dragon to be female.  Moiraine and Suian just thinks that it is a possibility. This is introducing from the beginning to everyone that Aes Sedai can be wrong.

 

5 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

B) even casual fans, who haven't read the books, could google it immediately and find out that Rand is the Dragon;

Even casual fans can google who dun it for mysteries, and yet, mystery shows still continue to have mysteries in them.  And people like them. A mystery about the Dragon was a way for the show to make sure that the non-book reader audience recognized that all the EF5 are equally important in this series, otherwise they would dismiss all storylines in S1 that don't focus on Rand as distraction. It's preparing them for what comes later too.

5 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

C) their meta-question made it so that they wrote to put believable suspicion, that they could be the Dragon, onto each of the EF5 (including Nyn, which even internally in the show made no sense) - which resulted in none of them being compelling.

You're going to have to prove that it made none of them compelling. There's plenty of evidence that many viewers found many of them compelling. Rand was considered the least compelling one. 

5 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

#2: The episode featuring the funeral/Steppin; 

Thank you for rolling with it.  Lan is a main character, as are Nynaeve and Moiraine. That short period of time revealed things about their characters (Like that Nynaeve cares deeply about everyone, not just EF folks, that Lan has a stoic surface that has strong emotion beneath, and of course many things about the nature of the Bond that are vital).  With that screenshot of dead Stepin, they can can include that in a 'previously on' clip whenever a life is in danger or someone is bonded, and the audience instantly will remember the important details of Warder bonds in a way that talking about it never could.  Image over words is vital for a TV series...much more than a movie, because things have to be remembered across multiple years.

5 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

#3. Disagree. I've read EotW at least 4 times and never thought that.

You missed it, but it's definitely there. Why would Perrin feel jealous of Aram dancing with Egwene if he never saw her as anything but a little sister. 

5 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

#4. Perhaps they had good excuses for this choice, E.g "Covid". Ideally, you have the women channelers fight with the men; and then, just as the book does, you display DRAGON power at the very end of the season - with Rand single-handedly demolishing them. 

 

Rand has many opportunities to show his enormous power throughout the series. He does it at least once a book. He has many opportunities to be feared....he is feared often through the books.  Egwene doesn't get to display her actual level of power until the Seanchen take the White Tower.  Nynaeve never does. She does half the cleansing of the source, but she's doing it in unison with Rand so it doesn't seem like the Power has to be hers.  We know it as readers because we read about it, and people say it, but we don't /see/ it.  This was an ideal time for Egwene and Nynaeve to show their power early.  It also lets us know that they aren't just throwaway characters

5 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

#5. That's true - Forsaken show up at the end of the EotW books and readers are like: "Who are these people, why do we care?" Great opportunity for the show (as well as going forward) to write better than Jordan did - give us compelling and scary and relatable antagonists (besides Elaida - who was a brilliantly written foil). 

And reveal their villains too early and make them more boring. Holding back and letting the mystery grow is a recognized technique used in multiple seasons...and something Jordan does in the books.

5 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

#6. Perhaps they've retracted their opinions since - but I do believe that many of the content creators/major fans/critics  ... like Daniel Greene, like Nae'Blis, like Unraveling the Pattern, ect ... all had this complaint. So ... not "just me", but more like a WE, who thought that the characters were undeveloped (and it wasn't a fault of the actors but of the writing decisions)! 

All fans in identical demographics and relationships to the books. And with different opinions of the show too...Naeblis and Unravelling have retracted as they have gotten over the shock if dealing with differences. It's hard to deal with change.

5 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

#7. Do you honestly think that Nynaeve didn't appear dead? Because I believe official Amazon people have tried to explain that this was a make-up mistake.

It is a makeup mistake. It's not bad writing. Even if she were dead (and she never was...she just looked more dead than intended), it wouldn't be bad writing because the scene where someone says 'death cannot be healed' has not happened in the show. You can't have a contradiction to something that has not happened yet, and you can't say something won't work in the future until you see how the show deals with it.   How Nynaeve lives, how Loial lives, what happens due to the dagger...they aren't bad writing...they are part of a story we have not seen the ending of.   They can be resolved in future seasons.  I think the Nynaeve makeup thing was a genuine mistake....and also something that the show can incorporate and adapt to in the future in a couple of cool ways if they want to. Loial was hasty writing (I'm sure it was supposed to be Mat), but I'm also sure that that will be explained in S2.  

 

Just because we don't know EVERYTHING in S1 doesn't mean there is no explanation within the show universe. 

The books have a TON of fakeout deaths.  If 'fakeout death' happening is the standard for bad writing, then Jordan's writing is bad and by keeping fakeout deaths the show is being /more/ loyal to Jordan's writing. 

The story is not over yet. You'll have to wait and see like the rest of us.

[WhiteVeils]

2 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

Again, I appreciate that this is your opinion, and you're 100% entitled to it. I definitely disagree though.

I was starting to refute point by point, but arguing these same things gets so tiresome. But, we can do this!

2 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

#1 she cites "lack of attention to detail"; examples given "men/women can't see each other weaves - but in the same episode Logain sees Nyn filled with the power (they can't be consistent in their own story).

We don't know what Logain sees.  We know, because they did say it, that he doesn't see Nynaeve's weaves. But he can see light (regular light as a side effect of the spell). He can see people healing all together.  And, for my favorite theory, he can see Ta'veran.  From the books, we know that ta'veran glow to those who can see them, and that different strength Ta'veran glow in different amounts. There is no reason they can't glow different amounts at different times depending on how much they are touching the pattern. Nynaeve in the show is Ta'veran, and Logain can see Ta'veran, and she was doing something very powerful that is not normally possible. Why couldn't she have been powerfully touching the Pattern at the time?  Why wouldn't she have looked brilliantly bright at that moment for Logain, who can see Ta'veran-ness?  And why do non-readers need an explanation for what he sees anyway? Why wouldn't they or couldn't they just presume that he sees light, like they do?

2 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

#2. character development choices/lacking follow-through; for example, the decision to have Perrin kill his wife (which she really disliked) and feel guilt over it because perhaps all along he had feelings for Egwene.

In the books, he had feelings for Egwene.  It's consistent.  He has guilt over his wife in the story, and Machin Shin lies to you.  Egwene's been sleeping in his arms in not the distant past. It's not bad writing if the story is not done...not every plot thread from S1 needs to be wrapped up in S1.  

2 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

How they wrote Egwene - actually took away from Egwene's agency and interest and strength (and they wrote her that way because she's Taveren & a potential Dragon) - in other words, they can't have women BE women and be strong.

There is nothing non-feminine about Egwene being Ta'veran.  She has just as much agency and interest and strength, but she's not swordfighting or doing she doesn't do in the books.  She still was the first to volunteer to be a hero, the most decisive, and the most forward-thinking. They expressed this in many of her actions.  They made her Ta'veran and potential Dragon to do 3 things: Make it faster to get her out of the 2 rivers, explain why she left, and to fill some of Jordan's plotholes that are made worse by the show going to Tar Valon instead of Camelyn.

The show has to cut and condense. They needed to get everyone out of 2 Rivers in about 3 sentences of talking (by the end of Episode 1). They didn't have time to have a big argument about why Egwene shouldn't go because the trollocs weren't threatening her. Having her 'one of them' means she doesn't need a separate explanation.   They don't need to explain why her mother and father let her go, or why she abandons her devastated village when she's the only available healer left. All those things are nipped in the bud by the chage. It's 15 books in 64 hours tops.  Things need to be cut and condensed.  It also fills one of Jordan's biggest plotholes: Why take Nynaeve and Egwene to Fal Dara when they are supposed to go to Tar Valon.   They're novices. The Ways go straight to Tar Valon and Loial wants to go there.  They could even leave them safely in Camelyn and no one would be the wiser.    They have no business in Fal Dara...unless they could be the Dragon.  It fixes that.  It also allows the story to take Egwene into very unlikely places with less explanation required. Why is it so easy to make her Amyrlin? Ta'veran. Why is she a Dreamer? Ta'veran.  It'd be very hard to give the time to explain those things in the hours we have. Ta'veran solves all of it without changing her character a whit.

 

2 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Now, again - my main criticism of the writing is that it lacked wrestling with important questions. The question was "Who is the Dragon?" There's one right answer that can be easily googled. They need to wrestle with compelling questions. If you listen to Robert Jordan's own mega-question when writing EotW it's "How would small-town, regular, people react to 'you're the Savior of the world'?" and he thought they would resist and disbelieve and say 'forget you, I just want to be left alone', ect... 

 

It is wrestling with those important questions. But they aren't 'hook' questions. Those are questions that take actually viewing the series to figure out.  They are there.  They need hook questions that can be asked in a sentence of newsprint in a TV Guide article. Who is the Dragon also is a hook question that makes each party member equally important. In the books they all are important at the end, but it's not apparent in the beginning because of the focus on Rand.  If you only care about Rand because he's the only important one, stories like that of, say, Perrin and Egwene and the tinkers look like a complete waste of screentime, no more relevant than Stepin's.  By making the Dragon unknown, it means the audience is paying attention the clues surrounding each character, like, say, changes in the behavior of the wolves, and those things are interesting, not a distraction from the 'plot'.  Also, as I said, the mystery shortcuts a lot of explanations, like, say 'Why take everyone to Fal Dara'.  It also shows a very important thing for later in the season: That Moiraine can (and often is) wrong, and Moiraine doesn't know everything.  Bookreaders know this is true from her first explanation at the beginning, but it's showing that her lack of omniscience is important through the whole series.
And the mystery worked...people liked it and speculated on it.

There's more points, and I'm sure I'll have to go through them all again, but there's a start.

[WhiteVeils]

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

I'm not going through them all but you dont think it is terrible writing that Tam a Sword wielding trained blade master is unable to kill a trolloc, but that Nynaeve a untrained and unarmed 60 kg woman can. 

We don't know yet in the series that Tam even is a Blademaster.  We don't know how long it's been since he fought, and he was being directly targeted by the attack and was being overpowered.  Non-Readers remarked right away how skilled he looked compared to the other villagers.  His ending up wounded and Rand killing a Trolloc in that fight matches up with the books.

As for why only one: Because the trollocs used practical effects: Stuntmen on stilts.  A stuntman on stilts with a weapon in a sword vs sword combat within a set built like a small farmhouse with furniture and three combatants is incredibly difficult and dangerous to film as is (as you'd know if you did any stagefighting at all).  It would be very very much more difficult if there were multiple trollocs in the fight, or even trolloc bodies on the floor.  And  it would take more time. Time in the first episode was at a premium...they needed every second. That one trolloc fight told us everything we needed to know and did everything the books needed from it:  Tam has a cool sword. Tam fights way better than a two rivers man. Rand killed a Trolloc. Tam gets badly hurt.  The Trolloc gets killed and Rand manages to escape into the night pulling the heavily wounded Tam. There is nothing in that it doesn't need, and everything it does.  Fighting any more trollocs is just wasted time in a very dangerous rig.
 

Nynaeve clearly only defeated the trolloc because she took him by surprise.  That was a 1 on 1 fight in a larger space, and gave her a badass moment. 
 

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

 

Nynaeve is able to not only track Lan but get close enough to kill him if she chooses. Best of the best warriors in the world?

Happened in the books.  In the books, Moiraine was able to detect Nynaeve sneaking up on Lan in the equivalent scene, because she could sense the ability to channel.  Lan was surprised.  Not a change.

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

Lan was perceived that way emotionally that way throughout almost the entire series. His small emotes like slight turns of the head or slight widening of the eyes are treated as large signs of surprise.

Lan was interpreted by Rand, who is not the best judge of emotions, for starters. And in the series, much of the time Lan was very stoic and not radiating much emotion, but being very subtle about it.  Slight turns of the head, etc, do show much larger emotions.  However, in the show we see Lan through Moiraine and Nynaeve's POV, and neither of them see Lan as at all emotionless.  They both know he has profound and deep emotions, and they both have had those emotions expressed to them.  
Look at the times in the show when Lan is showing emotion.  Is Rand there? This is POV.
 

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

 

Whitecloaks scene please. Valda who was standing very close to Bornhald has killed multiple Aes Sedai and you defend the recommendation of healing from them.

That scene showed the Whitecloaks are not a monolithic organization with all one point of view. We don't know how close Valda and Bornhald is...their relationship has not been explained yet. We see that Bornhold has some distaste for Valda, but is forced to comply with him as one of the Questioners.  And Valda does not just seize Moiraine et al even though it's clear he suspects them strongly...he doesn't dare make a direct accusation with Bornhold there.  And because of how Bornhold answers, we know that not all Whitecloaks kill Aes Sedai...that some just try to avoid them. And we know that it is unlikely that Bornhold knows the extent of Valda's activities.  This isn't a writing error....this one line tells us a huge amount about the Whitecloak command structure and opinions of the world.   This will play out in different seasons.

Just because you think something is a mistake doesn't mean it is. You may just not realize the reason for that change or way something is done.

[Skipp]

45 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

We don't know yet in the series that Tam even is a Blademaster.  We don't know how long it's been since he fought, and he was being directly targeted by the attack and was being overpowered.  Non-Readers remarked right away how skilled he looked compared to the other villagers.  His ending up wounded and Rand killing a Trolloc in that fight matches up with the books.

As for why only one: Because the trollocs used practical effects: Stuntmen on stilts.  A stuntman on stilts with a weapon in a sword vs sword combat within a set built like a small farmhouse with furniture and three combatants is incredibly difficult and dangerous to film as is (as you'd know if you did any stagefighting at all).  It would be very very much more difficult if there were multiple trollocs in the fight, or even trolloc bodies on the floor.  And  it would take more time. Time in the first episode was at a premium...they needed every second. That one trolloc fight told us everything we needed to know and did everything the books needed from it:  Tam has a cool sword. Tam fights way better than a two rivers man. Rand killed a Trolloc. Tam gets badly hurt.  The Trolloc gets killed and Rand manages to escape into the night pulling the heavily wounded Tam. There is nothing in that it doesn't need, and everything it does.  Fighting any more trollocs is just wasted time in a very dangerous rig.
 

Nynaeve clearly only defeated the trolloc because she took him by surprise.  That was a 1 on 1 fight in a larger space, and gave her a badass moment. 
 

Happened in the books.  In the books, Moiraine was able to detect Nynaeve sneaking up on Lan in the equivalent scene, because she could sense the ability to channel.  Lan was surprised.  Not a change.

Lan was interpreted by Rand, who is not the best judge of emotions, for starters. And in the series, much of the time Lan was very stoic and not radiating much emotion, but being very subtle about it.  Slight turns of the head, etc, do show much larger emotions.  However, in the show we see Lan through Moiraine and Nynaeve's POV, and neither of them see Lan as at all emotionless.  They both know he has profound and deep emotions, and they both have had those emotions expressed to them.  
Look at the times in the show when Lan is showing emotion.  Is Rand there? This is POV.
 

That scene showed the Whitecloaks are not a monolithic organization with all one point of view. We don't know how close Valda and Bornhald is...their relationship has not been explained yet. We see that Bornhold has some distaste for Valda, but is forced to comply with him as one of the Questioners.  And Valda does not just seize Moiraine et al even though it's clear he suspects them strongly...he doesn't dare make a direct accusation with Bornhold there.  And because of how Bornhold answers, we know that not all Whitecloaks kill Aes Sedai...that some just try to avoid them. And we know that it is unlikely that Bornhold knows the extent of Valda's activities.  This isn't a writing error....this one line tells us a huge amount about the Whitecloak command structure and opinions of the world.   This will play out in different seasons.

Just because you think something is a mistake doesn't mean it is. You may just not realize the reason for that change or way something is done.

Well said, I understand the fatigue that sets in when you feel you have to respond to these same sets of questions every few months.  It does take its toll.

 

Thank you for the well articulated responses.

[DreadLord31]

@WhiteVeils 

I appreciate the amount of thought you put in and your passionate defense of the shows decisions.

 

I hope S2 does well. 

I really wish Amazon would give them more episodes and more time. 

I do realize it's a major writing challenge to attempt to adapt this series & appeal to non-readers & to have to write with a main actor leaving part way through and COVID ... Sheesh. 

 

I, in the praise of the show, would say that: Thom and Matt were very compelling and well written. 

 

My biggest complaint was that the finale fell waaaay short of being good / compelling TV. I had 5 non-readers that I got to watch the show because I am a big book fan. 

None of em are gonna watch S2.

 

I will. I have hope. 

Please, please, please be Thom and Matt good changes!! 

[WhiteVeils]

I think e8, and in part e7, did hurt a lot. I agree with the decision to split the climaxes/Power moments so Rand gets one and Egwene and Nynaeve get one. 

 

I think Rand's climax was great, better than the book, though I didn't like the way they did the blight much and the place that they originally planned to use was much better.  I did like that it looked a bit like mold on bread though.  I wasn't crazy about some of the dreams Rand had before the end, though they did the job ok.

 

I think Egwene and Nynaeve's hero moment taking out the Trollocs as an idea was great, but the limitations of Covid hit it very hard.  No stuntmen, no  close contact, and having to act 6ft apart in front of a green screen really damaged the way it came off.  I didn't like Nynaeve's final speech...it seemed forced to me even if it called back to the beginning. The healing would have been much better if it had been the CPR originally planned. More establishing the level of tech in the world and vital for the last book anyway like everything in this episode prefigured. The makeup was too much and I hope the writers do follow it up with consequences on Egwene and Nynaeve, such as Nynaeve's block and Egwene's inability to heal.  That will give it weight.

 

Lan's story was really weak...the actor was mostly unavailable for filming.  They did get most of the You are a Lion speech in and people lied the relationship. I wish it could have been a Lan/Perrin story with Perrin using his Wolfie powers for the first time.   That would have been much better and I think was the original intent...no tell required.

 

Perrin's story was making the best of a shit sandwich.  Between Covid restrictions but mostly because of the tragedy of Harris leaving at the last minute.  That exact scene done with Mat and Loial, with Loial wandering off to investigate something and returning to find Mat stabbed, and Fain giving a similar version of the speech to Mat as he's clutching his wounded chest...I think that would have been awesome.  They couldn't do it, and getting the Horn plot started was more important than having Perri do his Wolfie powers so Perrin had to do Mat's story.  They tweaked things...made Moiraine have a tell, had Loial be stabbed, has Perrin get some development at least with the talk about the axe, but it's not as good as it would have been.  

 

But it got finished.  That counts for a lot.  I don't think the show is perfect. I guess I just get pendantic when I see the levels of complaining and scrutiny used when I feel people dont understand the challenges involved or use their personal opinions as statements of universal fact.

 

[Mailman]

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

We don't know yet in the series that Tam even is a Blademaster.  We don't know how long it's been since he fought, and he was being directly targeted by the attack and was being overpowered.  Non-Readers remarked right away how skilled he looked compared to the other villagers.  His ending up wounded and Rand killing a Trolloc in that fight matches up with the books.

As for why only one: Because the trollocs used practical effects: Stuntmen on stilts.  A stuntman on stilts with a weapon in a sword vs sword combat within a set built like a small farmhouse with furniture and three combatants is incredibly difficult and dangerous to film as is (as you'd know if you did any stagefighting at all).  It would be very very much more difficult if there were multiple trollocs in the fight, or even trolloc bodies on the floor.  And  it would take more time. Time in the first episode was at a premium...they needed every second. That one trolloc fight told us everything we needed to know and did everything the books needed from it:  Tam has a cool sword. Tam fights way better than a two rivers man. Rand killed a Trolloc. Tam gets badly hurt.  The Trolloc gets killed and Rand manages to escape into the night pulling the heavily wounded Tam. There is nothing in that it doesn't need, and everything it does.  Fighting any more trollocs is just wasted time in a very dangerous rig.
 

 

I'm sorry buts that just rubbish. This tired excuse about limits on CGI and practical effects is nothing but deflection. They gave the greenlight to release the show and are responsible for the finished product and that is what they are being judged on. If the finished product that they released to the public looks like crap the buck stops with the production.

 

You cannot explain away the inworld story with the practical shortcomings of the production department. It makes no sense that only 1 trolloc would have been sent to the al'thor farm.

 

That fight in the show gives us nothing like the fight in the books.  Tam kills multiple trollocs in the book fight in the show he is unable to kill one when he is only facing a 1vs1. 

 

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

Nynaeve clearly only defeated the trolloc because she took him by surprise.  That was a 1 on 1 fight in a larger space, and gave her a badass moment. 
 

I don't care about a badass moment. The trolloc was hunting Nynaeve so it's not exactly like a surprise attack, she was unarmed and untrained yet she kills the trolloc without taking an injury something a trained and armed blade master was unable to do. That is bad writing.

 

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

Happened in the books.  In the books, Moiraine was able to detect Nynaeve sneaking up on Lan in the equivalent scene, because she could sense the ability to channel.  Lan was surprised.  Not a change.

 

100% a change total rubbish to say it's not. She was able to track them yes but to actually get close enough to kill him is an entirely different thing. Nynaeve was hiding some distance from Moiraine and Lan not with a weapon at his throat.

 

 

I'm not going to argue the whitecloak stuff it was just terrible. Having a group who believe that Aes Sedai are evil and servants of the Dark One recommend healing from an Aes Sedai is just obviously bad.

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

. 

I think Rand's climax was great, better than the book, though I didn't like the way they did the blight much and the place that they originally planned to use was much better.  I did like that it looked a bit like mold on bread though.  I wasn't crazy about some of the dreams Rand had before the end, though they did the job ok.

 

Probably the only thing I thought was okay about ep8. I liked the idea of using the vision to tempt him. And with the removal of all dream stuff that was in the first book that change was ok.

[Skipp]

50 minutes ago, Mailman said:

I'm sorry buts that just rubbish. This tired excuse about limits on CGI and practical effects is nothing but deflection. They gave the greenlight to release the show and are responsible for the finished product and that is what they are being judged on. If the finished product that they released to the public looks like crap the buck stops with the production.

 

You cannot explain away the inworld story with the practical shortcomings of the production department. It makes no sense that only 1 trolloc would have been sent to the al'thor farm.

 

That fight in the show gives us nothing like the fight in the books.  Tam kills multiple trollocs in the book fight in the show he is unable to kill one when he is only facing a 1vs1. 

 

 

He is a blademaster that hasn't picked up the sword in 20 years.  He holds his own better than most of the TR folk but then loses in close quarters.  That seems fairly reasonable. 

[Mailman]

2 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

He is a blademaster that hasn't picked up the sword in 20 years.  He holds his own better than most of the TR folk but then loses in close quarters.  That seems fairly reasonable. 

does not explain why they only sent 1 trolloc.

Still an armed blade master that cant take out 1 trolloc.

[Skipp]

37 minutes ago, Mailman said:

does not explain why they only sent 1 trolloc.

Still an armed blade master that cant take out 1 trolloc.

Why send dozens of Trollocs to attack 2 farmers?  Especially when they have 4 others they need to grab in a Village full of people.

[Mailman]

5 hours ago, Skipp said:

Why send dozens of Trollocs to attack 2 farmers?  Especially when they have 4 others they need to grab in a Village full of people.

Ahh maybe because 1 untrained unarmed 60kg woman is a match for a trolloc.

 

Even aside from that what if they had seen the trolloc coming they could have reasonably killed it with arrows. Sending one is an absolute joke.