Does Rafe ignore Shara?

[Scarloc99]

In the books the Sharans play no role in the series until the last battle when they suddenly play a massive role, bolstering the forces of darkness and being led by one of the forsaken. Now "river of souls" was composed of material missing from the books the idea being this would set the Sharans up. 

In TV and movies audiences usually react really badly to the sudden appearance of previously unknown parts of a story. They can feel cheated, where did this strange force, being, army, enemy come from suddenly with no explanation. So how does Rafe get around this. 

Does he ignore Shara? Have the forces that turn up to surprise the forces of light simply be dark friends led by Black Ajah women and turned male channellers? Possibly the easiest way, how many Black Ajah do there need to be int he world, enough to be a threat to the forces of light so there could be many many hundreds more then in the books (wilders etc). 

Does he keep the Sharans in and introduce them ahead of time, possibly taking some of the story from River of Souls, they could be prologue scenes before a few episodes showing Demandred completing the Sharan Prophesies and becoming Bao, much as they have started showing the age of legends in that pre opening title slot, you don't need to add context, the audience can then have a moment of "I know who they are and who he is" when they appear at the last battle. But, this loses precious time from telling other bits of story, 

Or does he simply have them appear like they do in the books, leave the audience a bit confused, bit bemused, much as some of us where when we read the books and this unknown entire nation's army suddenly drops in pledging for the dark lord with no real explanation. 

This one question gets to some of the key issues with planing out this TV show, each one has it's pros and cons and there is possibly no right answer. 

[A Memory Of Why]

I thought Shara being involved was "obvious to the casual reader" 🤪

[WhiteVeils]

I don't know how he is going to do it, but MY recommendation for the show is to remove Shara completely, and add a secondary Seanchen plotline, one that is already sort of in the books, but develop it further.

 

In Seanchen, dismay at how poorly the Return is going after Falme causes dissent against the Empress.  Two Foresaken arrive on the continent to cause chaos...Semirage and Demandred. Semirage finds her place on the side of the Imperials, and Demandred nestles himself with the dissenters, so they can use the Empire against Rand no matter which way the wind blows.  

 

Have Tuon start out as she does in the books, under the influence of Semirage and generally in synch with the priorities of her culture.  However, make her just a little different, playing up her rebellious streak and making her personally questioning the harshness and slavery of her culture and  while she could be a sul'dam, she chooses not to, though she is not in a position as heir to pursue that rebellion further.  When she is kidnapped by Mat, she questions that even more and comes to determine that what she has been taught is wrong and vows to end slavery in Seanchen.  She slips Semirage's leash.  And she finalizes her marriage to Mat, in part, because she sees in him the general who can help her defeat the rebels who she thinks killed her mother.

 

Her disappearance, rumors of her 'softness' to the damane and that Tuon will free them, the dissent, and the actions of Demandred, lead to a coup on the continent of Seanchen. The current Empress is assassinated to put Semirage fully in power. But Tuon is returned safely before Semirage can fully cement her control, and she has to slip away.  Semirage attacks Rand under Tuon's guise as a last ditch effort to use her half of the Seanchen for the Dark One, and is killed just like the books.

 

Tuon, now fully in control of the loyalist faction of the Seanchen, is free to do whatever she did in the books, but now is doing it with some internal opposition. She wants to help Rand in the Last Battle, but if she uses her own forces, she leaves herself open to be pulled down by her rebels (whom she doesn't know are led by Demandred).  She waivers, but in the end puts the fate of the Pattern over her own best interest and offers her forces to Rand.

During the Last Battle, it is not the Sharans who arrive, but the other half of the Seanchen, the rebels under Demandred. The war is Seanchen vs. Seanchen, over slavery and damane as well as everything else.  Tuon's false retreat is 'labeled' as her retreating to retake the Crystal Throne, but she's just doing a fakeout to return like she did in the books.

 

That gives us a few things.  No need for a new nation out of nowhere. No icky implications with black 'wild people'. An end to slavery in Seanchen.  A reason Tuon married Mat so readily.  And it makes Tuon a nicer character we're a bit happier to see Mat end up with.  

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, WhiteVeils said:

I don't know how he is going to do it, but MY recommendation for the show is to remove Shara completely, and add a secondary Seanchen plotline, one that is already sort of in the books, but develop it further.

 

In Seanchen, dismay at how poorly the Return is going after Falme causes dissent against the Empress.  Two Foresaken arrive on the continent to cause chaos...Semirage and Demandred. Semirage finds her place on the side of the Imperials, and Demandred nestles himself with the dissenters, so they can use the Empire against Rand no matter which way the wind blows.  

 

Have Tuon start out as she does in the books, under the influence of Semirage and generally in synch with the priorities of her culture.  However, make her just a little different, playing up her rebellious streak and making her personally questioning the harshness and slavery of her culture and  while she could be a sul'dam, she chooses not to, though she is not in a position as heir to pursue that rebellion further.  When she is kidnapped by Mat, she questions that even more and comes to determine that what she has been taught is wrong and vows to end slavery in Seanchen.  She slips Semirage's leash.  And she finalizes her marriage to Mat, in part, because she sees in him the general who can help her defeat the rebels who she thinks killed her mother.

 

Her disappearance, rumors of her 'softness' to the damane and that Tuon will free them, the dissent, and the actions of Demandred, lead to a coup on the continent of Seanchen. The current Empress is assassinated to put Semirage fully in power. But Tuon is returned safely before Semirage can fully cement her control, and she has to slip away.  Semirage attacks Rand under Tuon's guise as a last ditch effort to use her half of the Seanchen for the Dark One, and is killed just like the books.

 

Tuon, now fully in control of the loyalist faction of the Seanchen, is free to do whatever she did in the books, but now is doing it with some internal opposition. She wants to help Rand in the Last Battle, but if she uses her own forces, she leaves herself open to be pulled down by her rebels (whom she doesn't know are led by Demandred).  She waivers, but in the end puts the fate of the Pattern over her own best interest and offers her forces to Rand.

During the Last Battle, it is not the Sharans who arrive, but the other half of the Seanchen, the rebels under Demandred. The war is Seanchen vs. Seanchen, over slavery and damane as well as everything else.  Tuon's false retreat is 'labeled' as her retreating to retake the Crystal Throne, but she's just doing a fakeout to return like she did in the books.

 

That gives us a few things.  No need for a new nation out of nowhere. No icky implications with black 'wild people'. An end to slavery in Seanchen.  A reason Tuon married Mat so readily.  And it makes Tuon a nicer character we're a bit happier to see Mat end up with.  

 

That is an interesting solution for the Sharan surprise.  It would probably work better on screen than the Sharans because I doubt we will even get as much of the nods to Shara as the books provide, and for many readers those clearly weren't enough.

[Mailman]

5 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

I don't know how he is going to do it, but MY recommendation for the show is to remove Shara completely, and add a secondary Seanchen plotline, one that is already sort of in the books, but develop it further.

 

In Seanchen, dismay at how poorly the Return is going after Falme causes dissent against the Empress.  Two Foresaken arrive on the continent to cause chaos...Semirage and Demandred. Semirage finds her place on the side of the Imperials, and Demandred nestles himself with the dissenters, so they can use the Empire against Rand no matter which way the wind blows.  

 

Have Tuon start out as she does in the books, under the influence of Semirage and generally in synch with the priorities of her culture.  However, make her just a little different, playing up her rebellious streak and making her personally questioning the harshness and slavery of her culture and  while she could be a sul'dam, she chooses not to, though she is not in a position as heir to pursue that rebellion further.  When she is kidnapped by Mat, she questions that even more and comes to determine that what she has been taught is wrong and vows to end slavery in Seanchen.  She slips Semirage's leash.  And she finalizes her marriage to Mat, in part, because she sees in him the general who can help her defeat the rebels who she thinks killed her mother.

 

Her disappearance, rumors of her 'softness' to the damane and that Tuon will free them, the dissent, and the actions of Demandred, lead to a coup on the continent of Seanchen. The current Empress is assassinated to put Semirage fully in power. But Tuon is returned safely before Semirage can fully cement her control, and she has to slip away.  Semirage attacks Rand under Tuon's guise as a last ditch effort to use her half of the Seanchen for the Dark One, and is killed just like the books.

 

Tuon, now fully in control of the loyalist faction of the Seanchen, is free to do whatever she did in the books, but now is doing it with some internal opposition. She wants to help Rand in the Last Battle, but if she uses her own forces, she leaves herself open to be pulled down by her rebels (whom she doesn't know are led by Demandred).  She waivers, but in the end puts the fate of the Pattern over her own best interest and offers her forces to Rand.

During the Last Battle, it is not the Sharans who arrive, but the other half of the Seanchen, the rebels under Demandred. The war is Seanchen vs. Seanchen, over slavery and damane as well as everything else.  Tuon's false retreat is 'labeled' as her retreating to retake the Crystal Throne, but she's just doing a fakeout to return like she did in the books.

 

That gives us a few things.  No need for a new nation out of nowhere. No icky implications with black 'wild people'. An end to slavery in Seanchen.  A reason Tuon married Mat so readily.  And it makes Tuon a nicer character we're a bit happier to see Mat end up with.  

I like the idea of having dual sides in the seachan the main issue that I see is Demandred and his use of the one power during the final battle being acceptable from a hardcore damane power control point of view.

[WhiteVeils]

37 minutes ago, Mailman said:

I like the idea of having dual sides in the seachan the main issue that I see is Demandred and his use of the one power during the final battle being acceptable from a hardcore damane power control point of view.

That is a good question. My thought, for what it was worth, is either that by that time it's too late...either they are fanatically devoted to him, or they are compelled, or just not where they can back off, OR....I had this random idea.

Have a whole additional thing where Male Channelers are not killed in the Seanchen Empire, but taken to the Towers of Midnight, which is a terangreal that dampens/blocks the power of all the prisoners within until they die.  To strengthen their side and 'win', the rebels (under Demandred's control) have losed the Male channler prisoners to use them as weapons against the Empress's side. Or something like that.  So they accept male channeling as a short term weapon to give them victory in the end.

 Just ideas.

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

That is a good question. My thought, for what it was worth, is either that by that time it's too late...either they are fanatically devoted to him, or they are compelled, or just not where they can back off, OR....I had this random idea.

Have a whole additional thing where Male Channelers are not killed in the Seanchen Empire, but taken to the Towers of Midnight, which is a terangreal that dampens/blocks the power of all the prisoners within until they die.  To strengthen their side and 'win', the rebels (under Demandred's control) have losed the Male channler prisoners to use them as weapons against the Empress's side. Or something like that.  So they accept male channeling as a short term weapon to give them victory in the end.

 Just ideas.

It still leaves an active channeler as the head of the non Tuon Seachan which feels like a bit of a stretch. It's hard to believe that a traditionalist Seachan view of channelers as dangerous animals would allow themselves to be led by one. I have no problem with the belief that the Seachan would make use of Saidan wielder's in the same manner as they make use of Saidar ones if they could.

 

The only real way I can see it working is presenting him as a creator style figure with him using the true power like in the book, however that would also require tweaking the Seachan somewhat as the duty-bound nature of the Seachan that the books represent would make it incompatible with them bending knee to the forces of the dark one. It being hard to maintain the illusion while fighting alongside trollocs and other shadowspawn.

 

I'm guessing that Shara will just be eliminated from the TV series

[Scarloc99]

8 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

That is a good question. My thought, for what it was worth, is either that by that time it's too late...either they are fanatically devoted to him, or they are compelled, or just not where they can back off, OR....I had this random idea.

Have a whole additional thing where Male Channelers are not killed in the Seanchen Empire, but taken to the Towers of Midnight, which is a terangreal that dampens/blocks the power of all the prisoners within until they die.  To strengthen their side and 'win', the rebels (under Demandred's control) have losed the Male channler prisoners to use them as weapons against the Empress's side. Or something like that.  So they accept male channeling as a short term weapon to give them victory in the end.

 Just ideas.

You are starting to completely change the nature of parts of the source material now beyond recognition, that might be a good thing for the tv show but I can’t see it happening given how much hate Rafe and the writers got for simply having the women kill the trollocs at the end of season 1 lol. 

[Scarloc99]

It is a shame, I mean it would have made for an interesting juxtaposition, following Demandred as he completes the sharan prophesies, the audience wondering if he should actually be the chosen one, not presenting him as a forsaken for a while and at the same time show Rands doubts, that would have been a better switch and bait then “which one of the children is it” lol. 

[Gypsum]

I like Whiteveils' arc for Tuon and the Seanchan better than the one that was actually there.

 

I think you can get around the Demandred channeling issue. If a political leader inspires enough fanatical devotion, people will turn a blind eye to all sorts of foibles that would be unforgivable in a less revered demagogue. Plus, Demandred can use Compulsion. He doesn't have to Compel everyone. Just enough members of the Blood to get everyone to follow along. This is not a society that questions authority anyway.

 

I think it would have been interesting to have more Seanchan than Egeanin questioning the ethics of slavery. Splitting them into pro and anti-damane factions would have been a fascinating twist and a cooler arc for Tuon.

[WhiteVeils]

He doesn't have to start out channeling, either. In fact, that lowers CGI costs a bit. Remember the battle can't be quite as long. He can start out just using the damane on his side and all his armies, and only 3/4 of the way through the battle when he's really depleted does he start channeling for real. At that point it's too late for even those on his team to stop him, especially if those very close to him are compelled.. It makes a good late-battle twist, and makes sense why Gawyn/Galad/Lan at that point close on him and can get close...most of his Seanchen forces are dead.

 

[Wassup]

I actually do not have a problem with them showing up unexpectedly. The reader/viewer will be just as confused as the characters in the story. 
 

I think everything gets so chaotic and fast paced after that, you do not have time to really wonder where they came from. 
 

Shara will have to be mentioned a few times in the show but not really be featured. 

[ForsakenPotato]

I like the idea of no Shara in the show...but I'm biased because I didn't like it in the books. For Demandred, could he have another male channeller collared? I don't really remember if that's possible in the books (but if it's not it seems like a relatively minor thing to change, and you'd think it's in the foresaken's power to figure something like that out). It's not in the Seanchan's best interest to question whether the person holding the bracelet can also channel.

[Mailman]

44 minutes ago, ForsakenPotato said:

I like the idea of no Shara in the show...but I'm biased because I didn't like it in the books. For Demandred, could he have another male channeller collared? I don't really remember if that's possible in the books (but if it's not it seems like a relatively minor thing to change, and you'd think it's in the foresaken's power to figure something like that out). It's not in the Seanchan's best interest to question whether the person holding the bracelet can also channel.

The only male a'dam in the books was the 2 leash collar and that needed 2 female channelers to be complete.

 

I believe that magical mechanics are basically that the collar is a forced circle/linking and with men requiring women to form a circle it is not possible for 2 men to be in that situation.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Mailman

[ForsakenPotato]

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

The only male a'dam in the books was the 2 leash collar and that needed 2 female channelers to be complete.

 

I believe that magical mechanics are basically that the collar is a forced circle/linking and with men requiring women to form a circle it is not possible for 2 men to be in that situation.

Could Demandred just fake it though? Because the women who can channel in the Seanchan wouldn't be able to identify the source of male channeling regardless -- he can say he found a way to collar men, he can channel and say it's the collared man, no one can easily disprove him, and anyone who tries he can compel.

[Mailman]

13 minutes ago, ForsakenPotato said:

Could Demandred just fake it though? Because the women who can channel in the Seanchan wouldn't be able to identify the source of male channeling regardless -- he can say he found a way to collar men, he can channel and say it's the collared man, no one can easily disprove him, and anyone who tries he can compel.

Not saying some sort of ruse could not be used. I was just explaining the magic principles as I remember them from the books.

[WhiteVeils]

Like I said...Demandred doesn't need to channel publicly until his group of Seanchen is already pretty defeated and don't have any choice to accept him or not.  So it doesn't really matter.

[Guire]

I really like the split Seanchen scenario.  Demandred having a faked collared channeler and then revealing his power toward middle to end of last battle would be amazing TV.  We just need to see that he was very conflicted in defecting from the Light. This also really sets up his series of duels as more plausible.  

 

Also much cheaper for production.  Avoids some real world drama with Shara.  Gives chance for deeper presentation of Seanchan in limited time scenario.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Guire

[Wassup]

I think there will be a lot of time spent with the Seanchan during the series and probably no need for a deeper dive. 
 

It will not bother me if the Sharans are removed. However, I think such a rewrite of the Seanchan story is pretty big and would take a good bit of screen time to develop and show. 
 

It would make more sense to me to use the Aiel men who are at Shayol Ghul in the books. They already exist and viewers will already know about the Aiel. If you have them in one place, why not both?  

[wotfan4472]

The easiest way is River Of Souls being used in the show. It would be good to have as a link up to when Demandred first appears. The main issue is where to show it. The show has two options. It either splits the events in River Of Souls by placing the Cleansing in the middle, or start the entire arc after that happens.

 

Perhaps the show can present the events as sections once the Age Of Legends prologues and epilogues are done.

 

It is too complex to change the Seanchan that much to fit in what happens. Another difficulty, is if the show even has him use a circle of 72, or not. If the show does use it, then the Seanchan is out as a possible threat, since they do not have access to male channellers, and their circles are limited to basically two people, due to the a'dam. The only way that could be done is if the damane did not exist in the show. Since they are present, then it has to mean the Sharans are there.

 

That leaves the Sharans as the only civilisation that has the number of channellers to pull off the damage that should be done, since they technically have access to both sides of the source, something that only Randland has access to by the time of the Last Battle besides Shara. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by wotfan4472

[Guire]

1 hour ago, wotfan4472 said:

The easiest way is River Of Souls being used in the show. It would be good to have as a link up to when Demandred first appears. The main issue is where to show it. The show has two options. It either splits the events in River Of Souls by placing the Cleansing in the middle, or start the entire arc after that happens.

 

Perhaps the show can present the events as sections once the Age Of Legends prologues and epilogues are done.

 

It is too complex to change the Seanchan that much to fit in what happens. Another difficulty, is if the show even has him use a circle of 72, or not. If the show does use it, then the Seanchan is out as a possible threat, since they do not have access to male channellers, and their circles are limited to basically two people, due to the a'dam. The only way that could be done is if the damane did not exist in the show. Since they are present, then it has to mean the Sharans are there.

 

That leaves the Sharans as the only civilisation that has the number of channellers to pull off the damage that should be done, since they technically have access to both sides of the source, something that only Randland has access to by the time of the Last Battle besides Shara. 

This is a really good point.  Hopefully showrunners are working out these complex issues now so we don't get some weird inconsistencies right at the end.

[WhiteVeils]

Giant rings aren't necessarily that important to the last battle, especially with sufficiently powerful channelers.  Large ring innovations (like the Androl ring) can be a triumphant moment for the light, but also can, in Show Universe, not be something anyone is willing to do eagerly because of the risk of burnout.

[Mailman]

4 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Giant rings aren't necessarily that important to the last battle, especially with sufficiently powerful channelers.  Large ring innovations (like the Androl ring) can be a triumphant moment for the light, but also can, in Show Universe, not be something anyone is willing to do eagerly because of the risk of burnout.

Large rings are not necessary to the final battle.

 

However, the show has established them as completely overpowered and in the context of a world ending event the risk would be taken. 4 weak or new channelers and Nynaeve obliterate what is considered a massive force of shadowspawn. The implications for using even just the 13 strongest Aes Sedai would be destruction on an insane scale.

 

It's the equivalent of having nuclear weapons with leaders that have no choice but to use them.

[WhiteVeils]

14 hours ago, Mailman said:

Large rings are not necessary to the final battle.

 

However, the show has established them as completely overpowered and in the context of a world ending event the risk would be taken. 4 weak or new channelers and Nynaeve obliterate what is considered a massive force of shadowspawn. The implications for using even just the 13 strongest Aes Sedai would be destruction on an insane scale.

 

It's the equivalent of having nuclear weapons with leaders that have no choice but to use them.

The strength of 4 Means that large rings are unnecessary. They can do the same effect with smaller rings.  The show never needs to introduce the idea that a ring can go over 13.

Edited November 12, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[Skipp]

13 hours ago, Mailman said:

Large rings are not necessary to the final battle.

 

However, the show has established them as completely overpowered and in the context of a world ending event the risk would be taken. 4 weak or new channelers and Nynaeve obliterate what is considered a massive force of shadowspawn. The implications for using even just the 13 strongest Aes Sedai would be destruction on an insane scale.

 

It's the equivalent of having nuclear weapons with leaders that have no choice but to use them.

 

Funny thing about that considering the attitudes of the forsaken.  Several times in the books the Forsaken are unwilling to join a circle unless they were leading it as they didn't trust one another.  Imagine that but with the possibility of the circle leading being able to burn you out.

 

One thing we know about most darkfriends is that they join the shadow to amass power for themselves.  They are not the most willing to sacrifice themselves.