Why go to the 3 fold land?

[Scarloc99]

Just re reading the books after a long break and something in the shadow rises is bothering me. 
 

Morraine is trying to persuade Rand to attack Illian, but he waits in tear until an attack and then decides to go with the Aiel to the 3 fold land, why? Is it ever explained why he makes this decision other than “I must do what they least expect”. 
 

I am struggling to understand the motivation, at that moment the role of the Aiel was not understood, they did not tell him to go and Morraine did not tell him about the letter. 

[DojoToad]

Rand was trying to be unexpected in his moves as you said, and trying not to be controlled by anyone.

 

Plus maybe it as just fear of directly confronting a Forsaken...

[Scarloc99]

Just now, DojoToad said:

Rand was trying to be unexpected in his moves as you said, and trying not to be controlled by anyone.

 

Plus maybe it as just fear of directly confronting a Forsaken...

I get all that, but, it seemed to have no basis in anything like a plan, when he left what was he expecting? It seems he gets to Rhuidean and only then realises what he needs to do, before then he does not seem to have a plan or a clue. It almost reads like RJ knows where he needs to get him but can't think of a good reason why he would go.  

[DojoToad]

16 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I get all that, but, it seemed to have no basis in anything like a plan, when he left what was he expecting? It seems he gets to Rhuidean and only then realises what he needs to do, before then he does not seem to have a plan or a clue. It almost reads like RJ knows where he needs to get him but can't think of a good reason why he would go.  

The Pattern pushes/pulls on ta'veren more than others...

[Kalessin]

I thought it had something to do with the questions he asked in the ter'angreal in the hold of the Stone. We can guess one of those questions, because it gets referred to every now and then. I'm guessing one of the questions was to do with his parents and his putative relations the Aiel, who he found himself surrounded by.

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

The Pattern pushes/pulls on ta'veren more than others...

Yep the old, how do I get a thing to happen, I know, ta'veren, on my most recent read through I am wondering if RJ didn't use that a little too much to write him out of a bind. 

[wotfan4472]

Moiraine tried to use a prophecy to convince Rand to attack Illian.

 

The thing is, that prophecy refers to Rand revealing the Aiel history at Alcair Dal because of couladin, and the following battle with, and capture of, Asmodean at Rhuidean. 

 

It just never occurred to Moiraine that the prophecy referred all along at a teacher being needed for the Dragon Reborn, and he would be found in the Aiel Waste, not at Illian.

[Scarloc99]

49 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

Moiraine tried to use a prophecy to convince Rand to attack Illian.

 

The thing is, that prophecy refers to Rand revealing the Aiel history at Alcair Dal because of couladin, and the following battle with, and capture of, Asmodean at Rhuidean. 

 

It just never occurred to Moiraine that the prophecy referred all along at a teacher being needed for the Dragon Reborn, and he would be found in the Aiel Waste, not at Illian.

Yes but that does not explain how Rand came up with the idea in the first place. What made him make that decision that he should go there and let the Aiel go home. At that point he had no idea of the Aiel Prophesies, other then he might be the figure they where seeking.

[DojoToad]

6 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Yes but that does not explain how Rand came up with the idea in the first place. What made him make that decision that he should go there and let the Aiel go home. At that point he had no idea of the Aiel Prophesies, other then he might be the figure they where seeking.

It might be a tired tool, but the pattern forced him to the Waste.

[wotfan4472]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

It might be a tired tool, but the pattern forced him to the Waste.

Yes. The Pattern was going to force him to the Waste, and even warned him it would through the prophecy.

 

As for Rand himself, there exists the possibility that the Dark One informed the Forsaken on what the prophecies said.

 

Since Asmodean was with Graendal, I have no doubt that she told him of those prophecies.

[Stedding Tofu]

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Yes but that does not explain how Rand came up with the idea in the first place. What made him make that decision that he should go there and let the Aiel go home. At that point he had no idea of the Aiel Prophesies, other then he might be the figure they where seeking.

 

It's not clearly explained but there are a few hints at why.  From Tam's fever dream early in TEOTW he has wondered about his true parentage.  This keeps getting nudged like with Gawyn, also in TEOTW, saying  (sic) "wrap a shoufa round your head and you could be an Aielman"; with Mat telling  Rand in TGH in Cairhien about meeting Urien (an Aiel Red Shield) near Kinslayer's Dagger "he was looking for you".  At the end of TDR Rand finally embraces his identity as The Dragon Reborn and Rhuarc reveals that the Aiel call themselves The People of The Dragon.  They also form a very efficient bodyguard and appear to accept Rand's leadership without prophecy being fulfilled yet - after all the wise ones sent them into the wetlands to look for he who comes with the dawn - born of the blood but not raised by the blood (sic) - and he seems to fit the bill.  Rand spends time with Rhuarc so we can assume he believes he has a good shot at convincing other Aiel (All Aiel) to follow him and what he must do to secure them.

 

Rand does a lot of reading of old texts and planning in Tear at the beginning of TSR, including going through the red stone ter'angreal and getting his answers.  After this he determines to go to Rhuidean and asks the Aiel Wise Ones for right of passage by virtue of blood.  It's clear that he has accepted that he has Aiel heritage and expects to fulfil the Aiel prophecy of the car'a'carn to gain overall leadership of the Aiel.  Quite what convinces him is hidden from the reader but he talks a lot about doing the unexpected to wrongfoot his enemies and so aims to bind the Aiel to him rather than attack Sammael and also plots (clumsily) to trap one of The Forsaken into becoming his captive and teacher.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Stedding Tofu

[Kalessin]

Why I think it is tied in with his going into the ter'angreal is once inside it he cannot ask any question that touches on the Dark One. So he has to think around that. And with every man and his dog assuming he's Aiel - Loial being the best example - the most profitable way is to ask, what does he have to do to bind the Aiel to him? And going to Rhuidean is the obvious answer. He's already learned that the Aiel are the People of the Dragon; he's already claimed the title of the Dragon Reborn, the proof of that being taking the Sword that is not a Sword from the Heart of the Stone.

 

I would say that RJ cleverly hints at that by not letting us see or hear Rand's own questions, but by giving us the corporate box (so to speak) to watch Mat's hapless attempts to get answers from the ter'angreal. And going to Rhuidean is very definitely one of Mat's answers.

[Stedding Tofu]

1 hour ago, Kalessin said:

Why I think it is tied in with his going into the ter'angreal is once inside it he cannot ask any question that touches on the Dark One. 

 

I would say that RJ cleverly hints at that by not letting us see or hear Rand's own questions, but by giving us the corporate box (so to speak) to watch Mat's hapless attempts to get answers from the ter'angreal. And going to Rhuidean is very definitely one of Mat's answers.

 

We don't know his questions inside (other than how he can win and live) but we do know that none of the answers were to go to Rhuidean (as they told Mat) because he tells Mat this..

 

I do think the questions and answers may have contributed to his decision but not that he got the big glowing arrow like Mat did.

[Dagon Thyne]

I think it had to do with his three questions, coupled with his studies of the prophesies.  He knew that the The Aiel were the people of the Dragon, and suspected that their prophesies were part of his own.

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

I think it had to do with his three questions, coupled with his studies of the prophesies.  He knew that the The Aiel were the people of the Dragon, and suspected that their prophesies were part of his own.

• Why did he ask the questions he did?
• There was no hint of Rand being a scholarly lad in the Two Rivers - why study the prophecies and not just do what feels right
• Who encouraged him/taught him/dropped hints (even unintentionally) about the doorframe ter'angreal and the prophecies?

Probably Moiraine for the last bullet point, but who was guiding her?  I think the answer is still the Pattern.

[Scarloc99]

I should have waited 🙂 a little further we get Rands thoughts and he explains it. 
 

In short (and it is just a few lines in the book). 
 

He decided he needed to do the thing no one would expect, he had decided that he must be the Aiels Car'a'carn and, if he could prove that he would tie them to himself. This was his key thing, an army that would follow him for him, as opposed to the lords of tear etc who would follow him as long as they had something to gain from it. 
 

So he decided to take the risk,  it really knowing what he would have to do but hoping that prophecy would give him his own army of the dragon, 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

4 hours ago, DojoToad said:

• Who encouraged him/taught him/dropped hints (even unintentionally) about the doorframe ter'angreal and the prophecies?

Probably Moiraine for the last bullet point, but who was guiding her?  I think the answer is still the Pattern.

If Moiraine did that she did it by being deliberately scathing about his delays and book reading and relying on his pig headed refusal to do what she suggested to do the rest.  Rand has been trying to find out about the prophesies since he asked Thom about them in Cairhein so taking advantage of the first major library under his control would be a natural step.

[Sabio]

I think there were a few reasons.  He started to suspect the Dragon Reborn and He Who Comes with the Dawn were the same person.  He reasoned out the Aiel must play a purpose and would never accept him as an outsider.  Rhuarc surely filled him in on some of the prophicies like being born of the blood but not raised by the blood.  Accepting Tam wasn't his real dad and his mom was a Maiden of the Spear.  I always suspected Rhuarc probably hinted at least he needed to go to Rhudiean.  He understood the Aiel didn't care about the Dragon Reborn and would soon leave if he didn't do something and he needed the Aiel behind him.  He also knew enemies wouldn't expect that move from him and it would be easier to spot the enemy when they did appear.  Plus his vanishing would leave his allies worried about when he might suddenly return thus helping ensure they wouldn't risk betraying him.

 

Rand claimed he learned of the doorframe from reading a book.

[Elder_Haman]

On 10/29/2022 at 4:40 AM, DojoToad said:

There was no hint of Rand being a scholarly lad in the Two Rivers - why study the prophecies and not just do what feels right

Because Rand was not going to allow anyone to make decisions for him. He was determined to figure out what being the Dragon Reborn meant and so dedicated himself to learning what he could.

 

His decision to go to the Waste made total sense to me. He was literally trying to figure out who he was. Tam had given him reason to doubt his parentage. He's been told over and over how he looks like an Aiel. And then his own research connects the Dragon to the Aiel. Where else would he go?