Who made the better grade? WOT or ROP

[Gypsum]

Both shows added things that felt heavy-handed, like the original canon didn't have enough tension and high stakes so the screenwriters had to smite the audience over the head with the flail of drama. It weakened the characters and the narratives.

 

Examples include:

 

*The 'mystery boxes,' which everyone complains about.

 

*The mithril-silmaril connection, along with the story that the Elves will all die in six months if they don't get some mithril juice. Really guys? Really? Nevermind that the majority of Elves in Middle Earth have never been near a bloody silmaril.

 

When they introduced that theory, I'd hoped that the writers were being clever, and it was 'Fake News' essentially, propaganda implanted by Sauron to stir up conflict between Gil-Galad and Durin. But when the little nugget of mithril brought a dead leaf back to life, I thought, "Oh, no. They mean it."

 

*Gil-Galad sending Galadriel back to Valinor. He doesn't have the power to undo the Curse of the Valar, not least because she was part of the original Noldor rebellion. On a similar note, I wondered why one of the wisest of the Noldor thought open water swimming in a dress was a good idea.

 

(the same one free soloing up a mixed grade V - at least - climb using a dagger as an ice tool and a single point metal boot as crampons)

 

*Perrin accidentally killing his wife and Mat's abusive family. It's such a significant part of the character development in WOT that the lads start off as sweet, naive country bumpkins with no experience of violence, and then they become darker and streetwise as the story progresses.

 

*Agelmar being useless. This guy is considered one of the Great Captains.

 

*Too many characters in WOT being 99% dead, then revived. "I'm not dead yet!" Don't the writers have any other tricks up their sleeves? There are other ways to make a scene gripping. Honestly.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Gypsum

[DojoToad]

55 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

*Agelmar being useless. This guy is considered one of the Great Captains.

You're mixing up book canon with show.  Nothing is off limits...

55 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

*Too many characters in WOT being 99% dead, then revived. "I'm not dead yet!" Don't the writers have any other tricks up their sleeves? There are other ways to make a scene gripping. Honestly.

No, they do not.

[WhiteVeils]

The books do have plenty of fakeout deaths of their own...even just the conclusion of the Eye of the World.

And 'Charge' by Aglemar against a huge army of trollocs is not really prime 'Great Captain' fodder.  Fortifications are, like, military 101.

And, technically, in the show, the most jaded and worldly of the Two Rivers boys has no idea when his own pocket is being picked 'out in the real world', so it's not like they're /not/ naive.  They just don't showcase these things in the same way as the books.

[DojoToad]

8 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

And, technically, in the show, the most jaded and worldly of the Two Rivers boys has no idea when his own pocket is being picked 'out in the real world', so it's not like they're /not/ naive.  They just don't showcase these things in the same way as the books.

No, they do not.

[Guire]

11 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

The books do have plenty of fakeout deaths of their own...even just the conclusion of the Eye of the World.

And 'Charge' by Aglemar against a huge army of trollocs is not really prime 'Great Captain' fodder.  Fortifications are, like, military 101.

And, technically, in the show, the most jaded and worldly of the Two Rivers boys has no idea when his own pocket is being picked 'out in the real world', so it's not like they're /not/ naive.  They just don't showcase these things in the same way as the books.

The geography between show ans book is very different.  Charge in books could be accounted for by different circumstance.  But yes fortifications are better.  Reconfigured story after covid break was just not up to par.

 

I jotted down a rewrite of 7 and 8 in about 30 minutes one day.  A more complex battle that was probably more tell than show like in some early GoT seasons.  However it would have given us much more emotional pay off with characters like Agelmar and Amalisa.  It would have been easy to meet covid restrictions.  Also had a few sympathetic butch lesbian soldiers,  a better Uno and Yakota, better reason for Perrin to stall out with Fain.  No fake out deaths. And used a few borderland sayings as thematic payoffs.  Only thing lost would have been no slaying of patriarchy and you go girl moment for Moraine, Lan being a Hallmark Christmas special, and the throuple drama.  

 

Professional writers should have done as well unless Amazon execs just wreck ip developement.  That may be case.  At this point i dont know and may never know if Rafe is problem or only thing saving us from WoT prime being really bad instead of just mediocre.

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, Guire said:

The geography between show ans book is very different.  Charge in books could be accounted for by different circumstance.  But yes fortifications are better.  Reconfigured story after covid break was just not up to par.

 

I jotted down a rewrite of 7 and 8 in about 30 minutes one day.  A more complex battle that was probably more tell than show like in some early GoT seasons.  However it would have given us much more emotional pay off with characters like Agelmar and Amalisa.  It would have been easy to meet covid restrictions.  Also had a few sympathetic butch lesbian soldiers,  a better Uno and Yakota, better reason for Perrin to stall out with Fain.  No fake out deaths. And used a few borderland sayings as thematic payoffs.  Only thing lost would have been no slaying of patriarchy and you go girl moment for Moraine, Lan being a Hallmark Christmas special, and the throuple drama.  

 

Professional writers should have done as well unless Amazon execs just wreck ip developement.  That may be case.  At this point i dont know and may never know if Rafe is problem or only thing saving us from WoT prime being really bad instead of just mediocre.

Send your ideas into Rafe. Show him how easy it is before they start S3. Maybe he’ll even be inspired enough to fix some stuff from S2 in post production. 😜

[wotfan4472]

On 12/30/2022 at 10:18 AM, CaddySedai said:

 

 

 

But also mothers milk in a cup the Kelvin Timeline.

Agreed.

 

Star Trek Into Darkness was the worst cinema experience I have ever had.

 

I have not watched ROP, because I have all the alarm bells from the trailers that I got with Into Darkness, but ignored.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, wotfan4472 said:

Agreed.

 

Star Trek Into Darkness was the worst cinema experience I have ever had.

 

I have not watched ROP, because I have all the alarm bells from the trailers that I got with Into Darkness, but ignored.

Many of us had the same alarm bells with WoT from trailers and promotional shots, but there is no way that would have stopped me from watching the show - at least until the show proved the fears were warranted...

[Spiritweaver1]

Well I have been away for a while.  Between Thanksgiving and Christmas I did a head to head binge comparison of Rings of Power and Wheel of Time.  As a reminder I am a big fan of both book series but have  previously given Jordan the nod because of his more detailed world building in terms of exploring various cultures.  I also very much appreciate  his inclusion/exploration of strong female characters.  This watching of Wheel of Time season 1 was my fourth.  The Rings of Power was the second.  Interestingly enough this watching of Wheel of Time blunted some of my previous problems with the adaption in terms of its departure from the book tale.  I feel that this was probably because, at my advanced age, there is some stronger form of recency bias at work.    

 

However, in comparison with Rings of Power, the plot was much more difficult to swallow in spite of having excellent source material for the screenplay.  Rings of Power on the other hand had to make up most of their story.  Again it isn't so much about deviations from the original it is, can I believe that the characters would behave as they do.  Matt turning around at the waygate is a prime example.   The GGI was better in the Rings of Power but given the difference in budget between the two shows that only makes sense. WOT was not bad mostly.    I felt the characters were better developed in Rings of Power.  That is one of the worst things and the place where the departures from the original story was still a sharp stick to the eye.  A lot of the problem seems traceable to the decision to widen the dragon reborn candidate list.  So much of the character development was on feints  and misdirection.  

 

In summary, I am looking forward to season 2 of Rings of Power far more than season 2 of Wheel of Time.  I have, upon my rewatch, decided to actually commit to at least 3 episodes of the new WOT season whereas before I wasn't so sure I would.   Hopefully the writing team will have realized that the strategy should be to leverage the strengths of the source material and focus on tightening up the story to fit the series outline and adapt to the screen.  Making up new stories and character arcs clearly isn't the  writing team's strong point.  

Edited January 6, 2023 by CaddySedai
Moved into this topic as requested by author.

[Spiritweaver1]

So I have a longer reply that I mis-posted in the the How did the Show Hold Up thread.  I asked Caddy to move it over here.  In summary, for me  after a post Thanksgiving binge off of both shows RoP was the winner by a considerable margin.    For me it is all down to better (more believable) story telling and character development.  WoT suffered mightily from all the effort put into the who is the Dragon mystery and dubious character development (like Perrin killing his wife and Matt being a thief) which could have better put to use in actually adapting the story rather than rewriting it.  The good news  for me is that my distaste for some of the new plot has faded so I actually will at least start the new season instead of writing it off like I was tempted to after the series ended.   Neither series was perfect really surviving a pyroclastic flow???  Note I like WoT books far better than the LoTR in spite  of the massive bloat in the former tale.  

[Spiritweaver1]

On 12/30/2022 at 4:49 AM, Gypsum said:

Both shows added things that felt heavy-handed, like the original canon didn't have enough tension and high stakes so the screenwriters had to smite the audience over the head with the flail of drama. It weakened the characters and the narratives.

 

Examples include:

 

*The 'mystery boxes,' which everyone complains about.

 

*The mithril-silmaril connection, along with the story that the Elves will all die in six months if they don't get some mithril juice. Really guys? Really? Nevermind that the majority of Elves in Middle Earth have never been near a bloody silmaril.

 

When they introduced that theory, I'd hoped that the writers were being clever, and it was 'Fake News' essentially, propaganda implanted by Sauron to stir up conflict between Gil-Galad and Durin. But when the little nugget of mithril brought a dead leaf back to life, I thought, "Oh, no. They mean it."

 

*Gil-Galad sending Galadriel back to Valinor. He doesn't have the power to undo the Curse of the Valar, not least because she was part of the original Noldor rebellion. On a similar note, I wondered why one of the wisest of the Noldor thought open water swimming in a dress was a good idea.

 

(the same one free soloing up a mixed grade V - at least - climb using a dagger as an ice tool and a single point metal boot as crampons)

 

*Perrin accidentally killing his wife and Mat's abusive family. It's such a significant part of the character development in WOT that the lads start off as sweet, naive country bumpkins with no experience of violence, and then they become darker and streetwise as the story progresses.

 

*Agelmar being useless. This guy is considered one of the Great Captains.

 

*Too many characters in WOT being 99% dead, then revived. "I'm not dead yet!" Don't the writers have any other tricks up their sleeves? There are other ways to make a scene gripping. Honestly.

Don't forget surviving a pyroclastic flow in RoP.    In WoT there is also Moraine going into the blight without Lan and the Goddess of Healing nobody is going to battle without all the weapons they have.  However for me the worst "believability" offenses were committed in WoT.  You have summarized most of them very nicely.  

[expat]

On 12/30/2022 at 6:49 AM, Gypsum said:

Perrin accidentally killing his wife and Mat's abusive family. It's such a significant part of the character development in WOT that the lads start off as sweet, naive country bumpkins with no experience of violence, and then they become darker and streetwise as the story progresses.

You can argue about the specifics, but this is one of the best decisions of the show.  Jordon really missed the mark on EF.  If we assume about 1700 era technology, a hard scrabble town on the edge of civilization would NOT be manned by a bunch of 20 yr old, sweet, naive, country bumpkins.  Literally, they would all be married with children by that point.  In order for the town to survive, you started early and had lots of kids.  Also, in a town that size, there would be the resident drunks/abusers/gamblers/not nice folks.  EF as described, was too pretty, too nice, and too naive. The only realistic part was that the town would lack knowledge, so would be country bumpkins. Yes, he wanted the boys to have their coming-of-age arc, but it was unrealistic for the time/place he chose to begin it.

 

On ROP, I found it to be pretty, but boring.  I watched it with my brother and was constantly looking at the clock to see how much time was left in each episode.  I didn't like much of the main casting, like Galadriel and Elrond.

 

I also don't understand anyone who read the original and liked ROP but thought that WOT wasn't faithful enough to the book.  Two of the major subpots were invented out of whole cloth and added to the actual story to fill (waste) time, since the original story is so thin that there isn't enough material to fill 5 seasons.  The harfoot/stranger subplot didn't exist at all in the original material.  The elf/human interaction subplot also didn't exist at all in the original material.  It's like if multiple episodes of WOT were devoted to stories about the Tolloc War.  Might be interesting, but not relevant to adapting the story.

[DojoToad]

35 minutes ago, expat said:

You can argue about the specifics, but this is one of the best decisions of the show.  Jordon really missed the mark on EF.  If we assume about 1700 era technology, a hard scrabble town on the edge of civilization would NOT be manned by a bunch of 20 yr old, sweet, naive, country bumpkins.  Literally, they would all be married with children by that point.  In order for the town to survive, you started early and had lots of kids.  Also, in a town that size, there would be the resident drunks/abusers/gamblers/not nice folks.  EF as described, was too pretty, too nice, and too naive. The only realistic part was that the town would lack knowledge, so would be country bumpkins. Yes, he wanted the boys to have their coming-of-age arc, but it was unrealistic for the time/place he chose to begin it.

 

I had no problem with advancing Egwene and Rand’s relationship. Also liked the change of Mat’s parents and Mat himself. Both were improvements on the book in my opinion. But Perrin killing his wife was a complete miss. No development between them and unnecessary to Perrin’s development through the season. Accidentally killing anyone would have accomplished the same. 

 

35 minutes ago, expat said:

 

On ROP, I found it to be pretty, but boring.  I watched it with my brother and was constantly looking at the clock to see how much time was left in each episode.  I didn't like much of the main casting, like Galadriel and Elrond.

 

I also don't understand anyone who read the original and liked ROP but thought that WOT wasn't faithful enough to the book.

I didn’t think there was an original that the show was based on. Thought this show was made from whole cloth with some hints from a bit of background material- nothing nearly extensive as WoT. RoP had some lore to point a general direction vs. WoT which is a complete story beginning to end. 
 

35 minutes ago, expat said:

 

  Two of the major subpots were invented out of whole cloth and added to the actual story to fill (waste) time, since the original story is so thin that there isn't enough material to fill 5 seasons.  The harfoot/stranger subplot didn't exist at all in the original material.  The elf/human interaction subplot also didn't exist at all in the original material.  It's like if multiple episodes of WOT were devoted to stories about the Tolloc War.  Might be interesting, but not relevant to adapting the story.

You mention a thin story without enough material, but then complain about added material. If there isn’t enough story, more needs created. 

[Gypsum]

9 hours ago, expat said:

I also don't understand anyone who read the original and liked ROP but thought that WOT wasn't faithful enough to the book.  Two of the major subpots were invented out of whole cloth and added to the actual story to fill (waste) time, since the original story is so thin that there isn't enough material to fill 5 seasons.  The harfoot/stranger subplot didn't exist at all in the original material.  The elf/human interaction subplot also didn't exist at all in the original material.  It's like if multiple episodes of WOT were devoted to stories about the Tolloc War.  Might be interesting, but not relevant to adapting the story.

 

In fairness, they were working with very different types of source material. WOT is a straight adaptation from a huge, sprawling series of novels. Obviously lots of changes have to be made for it to work on television, but the material is all there.

 

ROP was sort of like multiple episodes devoted to the Trolloc War. It was adapted from the appendices of Lord of the Rings, and due to rights issues, they could not use the more fleshed-out Second and First Age stories published in The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, etc.

 

It still suffered from some believability issues - perhaps this is the hardest part of fantasy to adapt to film. Tolkien and Jordan were genius fantasy writers who could weave magic, dragons, Elves, and other fantastic elements into their novels in ways that seem believable and grounded. Not necessarily in the laws of physics as we know them, but in their own internally consistent laws that somehow make sense and let you believe that people can totally do things with magic.

 

Both shows lost some of that in translation.

[Scarloc99]

On 12/30/2022 at 12:49 PM, Gypsum said:

*Perrin accidentally killing his wife and Mat's abusive family. It's such a significant part of the character development in WOT that the lads start off as sweet, naive country bumpkins with no experience of violence, and then they become darker and streetwise as the story progresses.

 

Perrin killing someone makes perfect sense to the need in TV storytelling to show something dramatic that can't be mis interpreted in the short time available. It sets Perrin off on his arc from the very start, scared that he will hurt people, afraid of his power and strength and feeds into his fear of the wolf connection. I think the community has largely got on board with.

 

I know from people I know who have never read the books Perrin was the one character they connected with because of this single scene. It helped them understand everything else that went on later on (in my wifes case he is the one character she vocally expressed about during scenes talking to the TV telling him to tell someone). So the writers process worked. It also works for the future, when viewers question why he just doesn't get involved with Faile, when they worry why he sends her away and no one else it can be clearly understood it is because he has already seen one women he loved die because of his choices, he will not lose another. 

Now the question comes from who should have been the one to die and this I am far more open to debate on. My initial sense after seeing it was "why create a wife when he has family, or the Luhhan's to kill", but in terms of story it also makes some sense. Later on the Luhhans play a big role in being taken by Fain and the whitecloaks and needing to be rescued. They also then form the support network around Perrin after he finds out his entire family are dead. His family are all killed by Fain, those 2 events are key to his development later on as a leader. 

So creating a wife and having him kill her becomes the logical way to get him emotionally to where it takes RJ 2-3 books to get him, get the viewer invested in him as a character and set up the Faile relationship later. 

On Mat, the character in season 1 feels far far closer to the mat we see in the books (ignoring book 1 which I think is accepted is not a real reflection of the story RJ wanted to tell overall). before and more so Once he gets cured of the dagger Mat spends pretty much all his time gambling and chasing girls. That is a vast leap from the character we see in book 1, given the time that has gone while this change happens I always felt it made no real sense to me. There must have been more of that in mat then just the boy who pulls pranks. 

[Scarloc99]

19 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

 

In fairness, they were working with very different types of source material. WOT is a straight adaptation from a huge, sprawling series of novels. Obviously lots of changes have to be made for it to work on television, but the material is all there.

 

ROP was sort of like multiple episodes devoted to the Trolloc War. It was adapted from the appendices of Lord of the Rings, and due to rights issues, they could not use the more fleshed-out Second and First Age stories published in The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, etc.

 

It still suffered from some believability issues - perhaps this is the hardest part of fantasy to adapt to film. Tolkien and Jordan were genius fantasy writers who could weave magic, dragons, Elves, and other fantastic elements into their novels in ways that seem believable and grounded. Not necessarily in the laws of physics as we know them, but in their own internally consistent laws that somehow make sense and let you believe that people can totally do things with magic.

 

Both shows lost some of that in translation.

I am really intrigued by what the forthcoming DnD movie does in terms of lore, that is a world that has much much more development then pretty much any other (including the LOTR). Almost 50 years of constantly developing lore and story, combined with pages and pages of rules that many players and DM's will be scouring the movie for anything that breaks those. I have already seen horror that the druid turns into an owl bear. I can certainly see people "counting the spells between rests" etc.

I think you can also look at the MCU, and other comic book adaptations, there are worlds, again with Lore and stories that the fans know and love, who's Movies, TV shows and animated series have dipped in and out of those source materials but then twisted and changed them to fit the medium, available cast, available time etc. The interesting thing here is that you can track directly how "good the movie/tv show" is in it's own right to how much the community pick it apart. 

MCU movies that are well written are given far far more leeway by the community for changes to lore than the badly written ones, and it isn't the case that the best written ones stuck to the Lore.

You can expand this out to other adaptations, the Boys is different to the comics, but because it is a great TV show the community has no issues with that, various Period Dramas based on the work of great writers such as dickens etc tend to be judged on quality first over sticking to the source. Lord of the Rings was a great movie that diverged far more from the source then the Hobbit trilogy, which was, well, less then stellar. The modern Sherlock Holmes with Cumberbatch where brilliantly made and so lovers of the books had no issues with changes made to the characters or stories. 

I think what we maybe need to accept (those of us that accept the lore changes in WOT and ROP, and those that don't) is that they are generally average in quality, for some of us they where very fun, for others not so much, but, if they had been brilliantly scripted, with fantastic set piece sequences shot brilliantly and dialogue that felt natural if they had been great TV then there would be some but far less complaints about the Steppin scenes, or the changes to Tarwin Gap. I saw a great discussion with the directors of John Wick on an honest trailer episode where the Honest Trailer writers said. "If the story and scenes are great then we can accept a certain level of suspension of disbelief in the movie, the Director has to look at it like Kharma, In action films you build up a level of trust with believability and the viewer then forgives moments that are maybe questionable. I think the same is with fantasy adaptations, if the script, casting, effects and the story told are great, then seperation with lore can be more acceptable, as those things become less "good" then the emphasis on "sticking to the lore" becomes a bigger issue (ignoring the hardcore few who will complain about every little change made). 

So I think if the DnD movie is fun, and good, and sticks to the essence of the lore then the details will be ignored where they are "wrong" and the same should be the case for ROP and WOT, assuming season 2 of each improves in terms of the scripting, story structure and editing/special effects. 

A Comparison I make with both of them because it came out around the same time (although not an adaptation) is See on Apple+, that was a show that just looked, felt and was brilliant because it had a great script, great acting, great effects and great attention to detail and as a result you could ignore the breaks in logic of the world. 

[DaddyFinn]

55 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

So creating a wife and having him kill her becomes the logical way to get him emotionally to where it takes RJ 2-3 books to get him, get the viewer invested in him as a character and set up the Faile relationship later. 

Rafe has said that Faile won't appear until S3. Hopefully Perrin can work a bit on his traumas during S2 so he'll be in a better mental state when she arrives. I don't want him to get completely over Laila in S2, that would be too quick.

[Scarloc99]

16 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Rafe has said that Faile won't appear until S3. Hopefully Perrin can work a bit on his traumas during S2 so he'll be in a better mental state when she arrives. I don't want him to get completely over Laila in S2, that would be too quick.

What I want is that moment with faile, where he tells her about the wolf (it always felt a little flat that was the only reason he felt he couldn’t be with her after all they had been through), it becomes more about him telling her about Laila, telling her that he killed her, that the wolf in him came out and he did that, and if he did that to Faille, he would never live with himself. Then her accepting him has even more emotional investment. 

[Scarloc99]

19 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Rafe has said that Faile won't appear until S3. Hopefully Perrin can work a bit on his traumas during S2 so he'll be in a better mental state when she arrives. I don't want him to get completely over Laila in S2, that would be too quick.

So this makes me feel season 2 will feel even less like the books, no Morraine and Perrin chasing Rand, the rescue of Gaul being different (maybe In tear, Gaul having been caught outside the city). I have found myself thinking does Rand need to be at Falme? Other than seeing the seanchan in person. He doesn’t need to fight that fight 3 times in 2 seasons and mat and Perrin with the horn can save the town maybe? That then leads to them heading to Tear to find Rand maybe? 
 

Or Rand isn’t part of the chase for the horn and ends up at Falme? I just don’t see season 3 being the group doing a trek all across Randland, to  Falme then to tear 

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Perrin killing someone makes perfect sense to the need in TV storytelling to show something dramatic that can't be mis interpreted in the short time available. It sets Perrin off on his arc from the very start, scared that he will hurt people, afraid of his power and strength and feeds into his fear of the wolf connection. I think the community has largely got on board with.

But they had to get on board - one of many things folks had to talk themselves into accepting

 

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I know from people I know who have never read the books Perrin was the one character they connected with because of this single scene. It helped them understand everything else that went on later on (in my wifes case he is the one character she vocally expressed about during scenes talking to the TV telling him to tell someone). So the writers process worked. It also works for the future, when viewers question why he just doesn't get involved with Faile, when they worry why he sends her away and no one else it can be clearly understood it is because he has already seen one women he loved die because of his choices, he will not lose another. 

 

The writers' process worked for some.  Maybe most - guess that's all they could hope for.

 

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Now the question comes from who should have been the one to die and this I am far more open to debate on. My initial sense after seeing it was "why create a wife when he has family, or the Luhhan's to kill", but in terms of story it also makes some sense. Later on the Luhhans play a big role in being taken by Fain and the whitecloaks and needing to be rescued. They also then form the support network around Perrin after he finds out his entire family are dead. His family are all killed by Fain, those 2 events are key to his development later on as a leader. 

So creating a wife and having him kill her becomes the logical way to get him emotionally to where it takes RJ 2-3 books to get him, get the viewer invested in him as a character and set up the Faile relationship later. 

 

Nah - Laila could have just been killed by a trolloc that he couldn't stop in time (assuming he needed to be married at all).  Him losing his love in the battle to shadowspawn would have been more than enough to set up his relationship with Faile.  

 

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

On Mat, the character in season 1 feels far far closer to the mat we see in the books (ignoring book 1 which I think is accepted is not a real reflection of the story RJ wanted to tell overall). before and more so Once he gets cured of the dagger Mat spends pretty much all his time gambling and chasing girls. That is a vast leap from the character we see in book 1, given the time that has gone while this change happens I always felt it made no real sense to me. There must have been more of that in mat then just the boy who pulls pranks. 

Yes - I had no problem with the changes to Mat.  He was a thief in the books (even if it was just pies).  And he definitely was always after whatever woman was amenable.  The show just advanced his story line and I think did it well.

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

What I want is that moment with faile, where he tells her about the wolf (it always felt a little flat that was the only reason he felt he couldn’t be with her after all they had been through), it becomes more about him telling her about Laila, telling her that he killed her, that the wolf in him came out and he did that, and if he did that to Faille, he would never live with himself. Then her accepting him has even more emotional investment. 

I still don't get any connection between killing Laila and the wolf coming out.  He was in a battle for the first time in his life, had no idea what to do, and accidently killed an ally.  I understand how that can make him depressed (and worse) but what does it have to do with wolves?

[Gypsum]

7 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I think the same is with fantasy adaptations, if the script, casting, effects and the story told are great, then seperation with lore can be more acceptable, as those things become less "good" then the emphasis on "sticking to the lore" becomes a bigger issue (ignoring the hardcore few who will complain about every little change made). 

 I completely agree. I liked Jackson's LOTR trilogy as cinema and wasn't bothered by the changes he made to the book canon.

 

The less said about The Hobbit, however, the better.

 

If your writing, directing, and editing are fantastic and your actors nail their scenes, then most people will happily go along with your adaptation of their favourite book. But you don't want your audience to think, "Wait, what?" The Steppin scenes and the Tarwin's Gap scene and all the rest weren't carried by the script.

 

ROP had stronger writing and characterization, at times, but it fell on its face too. Amazon just needs to hire better screenwriting teams. You'd think with the gazillion dollar budget they gave to ROP, they could have hired the best fantasy screenwriters in the business.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Gypsum

[SinisterDeath]

10 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I am really intrigued by what the forthcoming DnD movie does in terms of lore, that is a world that has much much more development then pretty much any other (including the LOTR). Almost 50 years of constantly developing lore and story, combined with pages and pages of rules that many players and DM's will be scouring the movie for anything that breaks those. 

 

Which world? Forgotten Realms? Ebberon? Grey Hawk? What's cannon in D&D?

 

According to WoTC, the Drizzt and Elminster books are not cannon to D&D forgotten realms. 

 

10 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

You can expand this out to other adaptations, the Boys is different to the comics, but because it is a great TV show the community has no issues with that, various Period Dramas based on the work of great writers such as dickens etc tend to be judged on quality first over sticking to the source. Lord of the Rings was a great movie that diverged far more from the source then the Hobbit trilogy, which was, well, less then stellar. The modern Sherlock Holmes with Cumberbatch where brilliantly made and so lovers of the books had no issues with changes made to the characters or stories. 

In most of those cases, the movie/show fans out number the source material fans, and the whining about every little detail is drowned out by the Movie lovers admiring America's Ass. 

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Gypsum said:

 I completely agree. I liked Jackson's LOTR trilogy as cinema and wasn't bothered by the changes he made to the book canon.

 

The less said about The Hobbit, however, the better.

 

If your writing, directing, and editing are fantastic and your actors nail their scenes, then most people will happily go along with your adaptation of their favourite book. But you don't want your audience to think, "Wait, what?" The Steppin scenes and the Tarwin's Gap scene and all the rest weren't carried by the script.

 

ROP had stronger writing and characterization, at times, but it fell on its face too. Amazon just needs to hire better screenwriting teams. You'd think with the gazillion dollar budget they gave to ROP, they could have hired the best fantasy screenwriters in the business.

But who is a proven fantasy screen writer? Who has done it really well ever? I can’t really think of a really strong fantasy series, GOT is the closest but that feels more and more that the highs where sheer dumb luck lol. 

[DojoToad]

52 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

Which world? Forgotten Realms? Ebberon? Grey Hawk? What's cannon in D&D?

 

According to WoTC, the Drizzt and Elminster books are not cannon to D&D forgotten realms. 

 

In most of those cases, the movie/show fans out number the source material fans, and the whining about every little detail is drowned out by the Movie lovers admiring America's Ass. 

Or it could just be a call for quality rather than whining...