Episode one Deleted Scene released

[Mailman]

2 hours ago, Nik said:

 

I didn't say that taking a life was a responsibility of adulthood. I said that as an adult, you have more power than a child, and that power come with the responsibility to use it wisely. Obviously, the ceremony didn't make her magically able to do things she couldn't do five minutes before. It's a ceremony. It's symbolic. I also read the references to giving and taking life as symbolic of the ability to do good or bad in the world. To help others or harm them. The language is poetic and hyperbolic, but the sentiment makes sense to me.

 

I understand that you don't like the way it's phrased. But your opinion isn't the only valid one. I'm allowed to read the scene differently.

You can read other stuff into if you want to change it but I will read it as it was written

 

"The ability to give life and take it"

 

Theres even a significant pause in the delivery of the line. Seems fairly obvious to me.

 

There is symbolic stuff in the other lines about having virtues of trees and stones and the like. It is not symbolic to say take a life.

[psmith1990]

We also know the original 101 script included Egwene

Spoiler

walking into that water holding a lamb that is then slaughtered

after the 'take it' line so it's more likely, IMO, directly referential of that than what people are inferring re. murder, it seems. See below for script:

 

Spoiler

Nynaeve continues as woman after woman steps into the pool --

 

NYNAEVE (CONT’D)

And willing to use that wisdom to do good.

(a SPLASH OF BLUE)

She must have the patience of the stones that watch the world pass by --

(a SPLASH OF SILVER-GREY)

-- because within her exists the power of creation itself. The ability to give life --

 

Another woman (who we'll come to know as MARIN AL'VERE, Egwene's mother) steps into the pool and SPLASHES Egwene with the most brilliant color we've seen yet -- BRIGHT SAFFRON YELLOW.

 

NYNAEVE (CONT’D)

And take it.

 

Then, before we even have time to prepare for it, Nynaeve CUTS the neck of the lamb with the broken leg.

 

THICK BLOOD LEAVES A SPATTER of BRIGHT RED on Egwene’s body. With each dying surge of the lamb's heart, another spray HITS Egwene. But she does not flinch.

 

She stands still, young but fearsome, like a many-colored god, a primal warrior painted for battle.

 

Nynaeve nods with a little half-smile, can't help but be proud --

 

NYNAEVE (CONT’D)

Come.

 

Nynaeve gently sets the lamb into the pool, its dying face quickly disappears beneath the white.

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by psmith1990

[Mailman]

6 hours ago, psmith1990 said:

We also know the original 101 script included Egwene

  Hide contents

walking into that water holding a lamb that is then slaughtered

after the 'take it' line so it's more likely, IMO, directly referential of that than what people are inferring re. murder, it seems. See below for script:

 

  Hide contents

Nynaeve continues as woman after woman steps into the pool --

 

NYNAEVE (CONT’D)

And willing to use that wisdom to do good.

(a SPLASH OF BLUE)

She must have the patience of the stones that watch the world pass by --

(a SPLASH OF SILVER-GREY)

-- because within her exists the power of creation itself. The ability to give life --

 

Another woman (who we'll come to know as MARIN AL'VERE, Egwene's mother) steps into the pool and SPLASHES Egwene with the most brilliant color we've seen yet -- BRIGHT SAFFRON YELLOW.

 

NYNAEVE (CONT’D)

And take it.

 

Then, before we even have time to prepare for it, Nynaeve CUTS the neck of the lamb with the broken leg.

 

THICK BLOOD LEAVES A SPATTER of BRIGHT RED on Egwene’s body. With each dying surge of the lamb's heart, another spray HITS Egwene. But she does not flinch.

 

She stands still, young but fearsome, like a many-colored god, a primal warrior painted for battle.

 

Nynaeve nods with a little half-smile, can't help but be proud --

 

NYNAEVE (CONT’D)

Come.

 

Nynaeve gently sets the lamb into the pool, its dying face quickly disappears beneath the white.

 

Well thank  they chopped that out 

 

*Edit*

PG13 language only. No F-Bombs, even with replacing letters.

~SD.

[Meskell]

That is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve read!

 

I know that they have to change certain things for tv but they should at least try and keep the essence of the book world. 

[DojoToad]

26 minutes ago, Meskell said:

That is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve read!

 

I know that they have to change certain things for tv but they should at least try and keep the essence of the book world. 

You came to the wrong TV show…

[SinisterDeath]

11 hours ago, Mailman said:

Firstly they cant give life without a man

That's irrelevant to the gender mythos. 

[Mailman]

19 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

That's irrelevant to the gender mythos. 

I would have thought in a agrarian society that that it would have been very much seen as a collaborative effort in regards to the creation of life.

[WhiteVeils]

Looking at the scene and how it's played out, it's not purely symbollic and it's not describing murder either.

 

The scene as shown:

- strong as the trees = green

- wise as the earth = brown

- willing to do good = blue

- patient as the stones = grey

- sense = white

- give life = yellow

- take life = red

 

Strength, wisdom, doing good, patience, and sense are not exclusively female. Men can do and need those things. But this is a women's ritual, with nothing to do with men.  Women can do and need those things too, and so the ritual of initiation is saying that Egwene needs those, as a woman in the world.  Giving and taking life are held up on parity with those other things...exactly on the same level as the others.  Saying Women have the power to give life, and take it, does not mean men do not have the power to give life and take it.  In fact, keeping those on par with the other things in the list that men and women both have implies men also have the power to give and take life.

 

In terms of actually taking life....almost every person has the power to take a life.  We have the power to commit murder. We choose not to because it's immoral, but we have the power to.  We also have to face the consequences of that...but facing consequences doesn't mean we don't have the power to.  As a villager in an agrarian society, the members of the women circle would also do things like decide the penalty for crimes, including, potentially, capital punishment. They would help fight off attackers and bandits, which would involve taking a life in self defense.  They also, as Nynaeve shared with Rand, be responsible for administering euthanasia or determining when a person is dead.

 

Those things are a power that must be respected and acknowledged, but in no way imply that a grant to commit murder, and I think it's really weird for those who went there.

[aclund3]

I'm very confused by the use of the Ajah colors (associated with the Aes Sedai) in what is supposed to be a back country Women's Circle ceremony.  I like the image of Egwene coming out of the pool with all of the colors as a flashback/vision kind of thing, but this scene as it is seems to be mixing the Women's Circle and the White Tower together and it doesn't make sense to me.  On top of duplicating the cliff scene, I can see why it was cut.

[SinisterDeath]

29 minutes ago, aclund3 said:

I'm very confused by the use of the Ajah colors (associated with the Aes Sedai) in what is supposed to be a back country Women's Circle ceremony. 

I think of it like it's an ancient tradition handed down over the centuries that they don't really know/remember where it came from (like the story of Manetheran)

It's similar to how people who celebrate Halloween, Christmas, and Easter have pretty much forgotten the pagan origins of those festivities. We do many of the same things (Pumpkins/Costumes), but have lost the why.

[Skipp]

14 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I think of it like it's an ancient tradition handed down over the centuries that they don't really know/remember where it came from (like the story of Manetheran)

It's similar to how people who celebrate Halloween, Christmas, and Easter have pretty much forgotten the pagan origins of those festivities. We do many of the same things (Pumpkins/Costumes), but have lost the why.

Exactly this

[Mailman]

6 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I think of it like it's an ancient tradition handed down over the centuries that they don't really know/remember where it came from (like the story of Manetheran)

It's similar to how people who celebrate Halloween, Christmas, and Easter have pretty much forgotten the pagan origins of those festivities. We do many of the same things (Pumpkins/Costumes), but have lost the why.

The issue for using the Ajah colors for me is that Nynaeve hatred of the white tower is expressed about 30 minutes later. It would be hard not to see the link of the colors to the Ajah colors. Even if you allow the characters to not be aware its a little off putting to viewers aware of it.

[Skipp]

7 minutes ago, Mailman said:

The issue for using the Ajah colors for me is that Nynaeve hatred of the white tower is expressed about 30 minutes later. It would be hard not to see the link of the colors to the Ajah colors. Even if you allow the characters to not be aware its a little off putting to viewers aware of it.

I am unsure if Nynaeve realized there was a difference between Aes Sedai let alone know about the individual Ajahs and the colours associated with them..

 

If I am wrong please correct me.

[Mailman]

Just now, Skipp said:

I am unsure if Nynaeve realized there was a difference between Aes Sedai let alone know about the individual Ajahs and the colours associated with them..

 

If I am wrong please correct me.

We don't know.

Her mentor did travel all the way to Tar Valon though.

And as I said for viewers who are aware of the significance of the colors its a little strange to see her use them then be so strident in her hatred for the Tower 30 minutes later.

 

Which is why i am surprised by people praising the significance of the colors in the water. Either they are not aware of the link to the tower in which case it has no significance. Or they are which jars with Nynaeves hatred.

 

[SinisterDeath]

21 minutes ago, Mailman said:

We don't know.

Her mentor did travel all the way to Tar Valon though.

And as I said for viewers who are aware of the significance of the colors its a little strange to see her use them then be so strident in her hatred for the Tower 30 minutes later.

 

Which is why i am surprised by people praising the significance of the colors in the water. Either they are not aware of the link to the tower in which case it has no significance. Or they are which jars with Nynaeves hatred.

 

The significance is in how prominent "WT" culture was to Randland thousands of years ago, that some bumbling hicks from the middle of nowhere don't remember that their traditions are steeped in Aes Sedai and WT culture.

 

For Reference, Queen Eldrene was an Area Sedai.

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Eldrene_ay_Ellan_ay_Carlan

 

In what world, would an Aes Sedai Queen of Manetheren not ensure that some Aes Sedai elements are incorporated in local customs, so the locals hundreds of years later might better recognize Aes Sedai as not strangers? 

 

Going back to the pagan festivals I mentioned earlier, this is exactly why early Christians incorporated pagan imagery, customs, and holidays into their religion... To make it approachable, and not strange. 

[JenniferL]

Also, the Ajah colors show up in other places. The steps leading to the Portal Stones in TGH are in the Ajah colors and that predates the Tower by quite a bit. 
 

As for why they did it this way, it’s because television is a visual medium. They clearly have focused on creating very striking imagery, especially in the first episode where most of the clips for the trailers came from. They wanted some big, cool stuff to make people go “ooooh. What is that??” I leave whether or not that is a good thing as an exercise for the viewer. 

[Mailman]

27 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The significance is in how prominent "WT" culture was to Randland thousands of years ago, that some bumbling hicks from the middle of nowhere don't remember that their traditions are steeped in Aes Sedai and WT culture.

 

For Reference, Queen Eldrene was an Area Sedai.

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Eldrene_ay_Ellan_ay_Carlan

 

In what world, would an Aes Sedai Queen of Manetheren not ensure that some Aes Sedai elements are incorporated in local customs, so the locals hundreds of years later might better recognize Aes Sedai as not strangers? 

 

Going back to the pagan festivals I mentioned earlier, this is exactly why early Christians incorporated pagan imagery, customs, and holidays into their religion... To make it approachable, and not strange. 

Possibly we simply dont know she was only Queen for around 25 years.

 

I find it unlikely she would plan on a rural custom being the basis of a feeling of goodwill to the the Aes Sedai hundreds of years after the complete destruction of her land. Its just as possible she would have wished to keep her own cultures traditions seperate from Aes Sedai influence.

 

I'm a atheist the church appropriated the festivals in order to try and grow there numbers. The church is a blight on all humankind.

[Mailman]

39 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

Also, the Ajah colors show up in other places. The steps leading to the Portal Stones in TGH are in the Ajah colors and that predates the Tower by quite a bit. 
 

As for why they did it this way, it’s because television is a visual medium. They clearly have focused on creating very striking imagery, especially in the first episode where most of the clips for the trailers came from. They wanted some big, cool stuff to make people go “ooooh. What is that??” I leave whether or not that is a good thing as an exercise for the viewer. 

I am aware that it is a visual medium it is the use of that visual coupled with Nynaeves hatred of the Tower that is the issue for me in the writing. Either one separately are OK coupled it is a little bit of a issue.

[SilentRoamer]

I much prefer the deleted scene because that is the pool which Nynaeve kills the Trolloc in. It ties both scenes together. 

[Dagon Thyne]

I think they cut it due to the dead giveaway.  How many people would be able to peice together that it symbolizes her future?    Did they ever explain that the Amylin belongs to all Ajahs.  It wouldn't take much for people to piece together that her being covered in every ajahs color is foreshadowing.   That is the type of scene that people read into and look for meaning.

[DojoToad]

How could it be a dead giveaway.  We don't know about the ajahs in episode 1.

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

I think they cut it due to the dead giveaway.  How many people would be able to peice together that it symbolizes her future?    Did they ever explain that the Amylin belongs to all Ajahs.  It wouldn't take much for people to piece together that her being covered in every ajahs color is foreshadowing.   That is the type of scene that people read into and look for meaning.

 

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

How could it be a dead giveaway.  We don't know about the ajahs in episode 1.

How would them foreshadowing her becoming the Amyrlin, be a bad thing? 

IMO, the foreshadowing in the show is like fanservice. Book fans will spot it, and go "OMG Foreshadowing!" Non-book fans might pick up on it, they might guess what it means, but that doesn't exactly ruin the experience. The whole "Prophecy" theme that is ever present in WoT, is about knowing something Will happen, but not knowing How it will happen.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

How would them foreshadowing her becoming the Amyrlin, be a bad thing? 

IMO, the foreshadowing in the show is like fanservice. Book fans will spot it, and go "OMG Foreshadowing!" Non-book fans might pick up on it, they might guess what it means, but that doesn't exactly ruin the experience. The whole "Prophecy" theme that is ever present in WoT, is about knowing something Will happen, but not knowing How it will happen.

Exactly.

[agreddon]

Am I bad in saying these scenes seem to ritualized, so to speak and I'd like a more personalized scene of Egwene being asked to become Nynaeve's successor?

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, agreddon said:

Am I bad in saying these scenes seem to ritualized, so to speak and I'd like a more personalized scene of Egwene being asked to become Nynaeve's successor?

Nah. We all have different opinions about what worked and what didn’t. Get your thoughts out there.