Age of Legends cold open

[Nik]

I don't believe there's a thread on this already. If I missed it, I apologize. I really enjoyed Unraveling The Pattern's video on the Age of Legends cold open from episode 8 so I wanted to share it and ask everyone's thoughts.

 

https://youtu.be/eKkTPmvWBLA

 

My theory is that we'll get at least one AoL cold open each season, and that they'll gradually reveal more about the War of Power and the sealing of the Bore (actual sealing might be in the final season to parallel Rand sealing it?). I also think they were deliberately misleading at times in order to make the gradual reveal of what really happened more interesting for non readers.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Nik

[Mailman]

The AoL scene was really poor. Achieved little other than reinforcing the message of men are bad. Supplied confusing and inconsistent knowledge for book readers and failed to convey the desperation of the world for non book readers.

 

The Dragon Reborn was IMO simply a mistake by production that did not think it through enough.

 

Not having the original prologue scene at the start of the series lost the show the ability to clearly set out the story and stakes from the start. And all we got in exchange was the stupidity of pushing a girl into rock filled rapids and being told to surrender. Which is a recipe for being knocked unconscious and drowning.

[Nik]

8 hours ago, Mailman said:

The AoL scene was really poor. Achieved little other than reinforcing the message of men are bad. Supplied confusing and inconsistent knowledge for book readers and failed to convey the desperation of the world for non book readers.

 

The Dragon Reborn was IMO simply a mistake by production that did not think it through enough.

 

Not having the original prologue scene at the start of the series lost the show the ability to clearly set out the story and stakes from the start. And all we got in exchange was the stupidity of pushing a girl into rock filled rapids and being told to surrender. Which is a recipe for being knocked unconscious and drowning.

 

Just curious, did you watch Unraveling the Pattern's video on this?

 

I 100% believe Dragon Reborn was purposeful to convey the cyclical nature of rebirth in this world and possibly to set up things for later if they're changing it so people in the AoL already knew the Dragon soul was a special soul.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Nik

[king of nowhere]

I liked that opening. The only thing I didn't like was that nobody mentioned the war of power.

 

Furthermore, I didn't get the idea that the narrative was trying to push somebody to be guilty. I got the feeling that the two were good friends, deeply respected each other, but they could not be united, and that failure doomed the world. not specifically a mistake from him or from her, but the fact that they did two different things. as they say, bad leadership is better than no leadership.

and this can set up the theme of the middle seasons of wot, where the main characters fail to work together and mostly run in circles.

 

Actually, it's like most things in wottv: it has great potential, but it doesn't deliver very well.

Edited July 2, 2022 by king of nowhere

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

I liked that opening. The only thing I didn't like was that nobody mentioned the war of power.

 

Furthermore, I didn't get the idea that the narrative was trying to push somebody to be guilty. I got the feeling that the two were good friends, deeply respected each other, but they could not be united, and that failure doomed the world. not specifically a mistake from him or from her, but the fact that they did two different things. as they say, bad leadership is better than no leadership.

and this can set up the theme of the middle seasons of wot, where the main characters fail to work together and mostly run in circles.

 

Actually, it's like most things in wottv: it has great potential, but it doesn't deliver very well.

Agreed!  I also appreciate how it parallels to Moiraine's opening monologue about "the Arrogance" and how that isn't how LTT came off as.  And then Moiraine and Suian end up commiting a very similar plan.... the arrogance.

[Mailman]

9 hours ago, Nik said:

 

Just curious, did you watch Unraveling the Pattern's video on this?

 

I 100% believe Dragon Reborn was purposeful to convey the cyclical nature of rebirth in this world and possibly to set up things for later if they're changing it so people in the AoL already knew the Dragon soul was a special soul.

Yes i have watched it twice in fact.

 

You already have the cyclical nature established by Rand being the Dragon Reborn. He is Lews Therin reborn. Surely if it is a known ongoing soul they would simply be the Dragon rather than the Dragon Reborn as it would be redundant to keep using the reborn term.

 

What makes far more sense is that Lews Therin was known as the Dragon and it attaches to Rand as the Dragon Reborn as he is prophesied as his reincarnation. He is not the Dragon Reborn Reborn.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

8 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I didn't get the idea that the narrative was trying to push somebody to be guilty. I got the feeling that the two were good friends, deeply respected each other, but they could not be united, and that failure doomed the world. not specifically a mistake from him or from her, but the fact that they did two different things. as they say, bad leadership is better than no leadership.

Except in this case the conclusion from the books and Rand's need for a new method is that if the women had participated in the sealing the result would have been that both sides of the source were tainted - the decision to refuse to help was the correct one (both as a lever to try to force Lews Therin to reconsider and as a lesser of two evils approach if he persisted).   

 

The plan to attempt to use the Chodin Cal (if carried out) would likely have been an error of similar magnitude, but that is not what the two were discussing at this point (the access keys already being lost).

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Except in this case the conclusion from the books and Rand's need for a new method is that if the women had participated in the sealing the result would have been that both sides of the source were tainted - the decision to refuse to help was the correct one (both as a lever to try to force Lews Therin to reconsider and as a lesser of two evils approach if he persisted).   

 

Except they had no idea that the taint was what would occur in the books.

And the result of Lews Therin not sealing the prison as he attempted to do would have been victory for the forces of the Dark. So if he had of reconsidered his attack the light would have lost and thus been the completely incorrect choice,

Edited July 3, 2022 by Mailman

[Nik]

9 hours ago, Mailman said:

Yes i have watched it twice in fact.

 

You already have the cyclical nature established by Rand being the Dragon Reborn. He is Lews Therin reborn. Surely if it is a known ongoing soul they would simply be the Dragon rather than the Dragon Reborn as it would be redundant to keep using the reborn term.

 

What makes far more sense is that Lews Therin was known as the Dragon and it attaches to Rand as the Dragon Reborn as he is prophesied as his reincarnation. He is not the Dragon Reborn Reborn.

 

I'm not saying it was the best choice. But I'm pretty sure that's the reason why they chose do it that way. We can, of course, disagree with them that it was a good reason. My point wasn't that it was a good choice, my point was that it was intentional rather than carelessness.

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, Nik said:

 

I'm not saying it was the best choice. But I'm pretty sure that's the reason why they chose do it that way. We can, of course, disagree with them that it was a good reason. My point wasn't that it was a good choice, my point was that it was intentional rather than carelessness.

Well I will stick with the option that is more logically sound that they made a mistake and not where intentionally stupid.

 

Although after slogging through Kenobi im not giving much credit to modern TV writers at all.

[Cauthonfan4]

2 hours ago, Mailman said:

Although after slogging through Kenobi im not giving much credit to modern TV writers at all.

You mean the show that's name would lead you to believe it's about obi Wan kenobi but is actually about something else?

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, Mailman said:

Well I will stick with the option that is more logically sound that they made a mistake and not where intentionally stupid.

 

Although after slogging through Kenobi im not giving much credit to modern TV writers at all.

Just watched Kenobi myself - not great.

[king of nowhere]

On 7/3/2022 at 5:34 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Except in this case the conclusion from the books and Rand's need for a new method is that if the women had participated in the sealing the result would have been that both sides of the source were tainted - the decision to refuse to help was the correct one (both as a lever to try to force Lews Therin to reconsider and as a lesser of two evils approach if he persisted).   

 

The plan to attempt to use the Chodin Cal (if carried out) would likely have been an error of similar magnitude, but that is not what the two were discussing at this point (the access keys already being lost).

if we are looking at the books, the women come across as dumbasses.

"we refuse your plan. Instead, we'll proceed with the choedan kal"

"the access key were stolen, the choedan kal is now unusable. we are losing the war, hard"

"well, whatever. let's just pretend all is fine"

 

given what they knew at the time, ltt did the right choice.

even knowing how it ended, and balancing it with the alternative... ltt still did the right thing.

 

If the tv show tweaks that so that the people involved don't look like dumbasses, but like rational people disagreeing - another weakness of rj writing, he tried to show the good guys divided but he always made them look like morons - that could be another improvement over the books.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

given what they knew at the time, ltt did the right choice.

even knowing how it ended, and balancing it with the alternative... ltt still did the right thing.

But (by way of damage limitation) the women AS also made the correct decision to not assist - sending the men in alone was the less of two evils since working together would have tainted both parts of the source.

[VooDooNut]

Maybe I'm completely misremembering, but wasn't the Dark One able to lash out and taint the male-half of the Source precisely because LTT and the 100 companions weren't using a circle of male and female channelers, and were limited in how they could attack (LTT was forced to touch Saidin to the Bore directly)?

 

As a counter-example, when the EOTW was made, a full circle of female and male channelers were able to create a pool of cleansed Saidin, so there must be some protective benefit to having both halves of the Source used against the taint.

 

1 hour ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

But (by way of damage limitation) the women AS also made the correct decision to not assist - sending the men in alone was the less of two evils since working together would have tainted both parts of the source.

 

In short, I think the opposite is true. If a circle was used at the Bore, the taint would not have happened.

[Meskell]

1 hour ago, VooDooNut said:

Maybe I'm completely misremembering, but wasn't the Dark One able to lash out and taint the male-half of the Source precisely because LTT and the 100 companions weren't using a circle of male and female channelers, and were limited in how they could attack (LTT was forced to touch Saidin to the Bore directly)?

 

As a counter-example, when the EOTW was made, a full circle of female and male channelers were able to create a pool of cleansed Saidin, so there must be some protective benefit to having both halves of the Source used against the taint.

 

 

In short, I think the opposite is true. If a circle was used at the Bore, the taint would not have happened.

I always took that as the implication I.e. the bore would have been sealed perfectly fine if the female AS had assisted. 
 

The ‘breaking’ to me was both the physical breaking of the land and the moment the female AS said no, as the beginning of the break between male and female in the wider culture. 

[WhiteVeils]

I don't think that's right. That was why the glove of the True Power needed to be used through Moridan-- to prevent the backlash on the One Power that would taint the source.  

[Nik]

RJ said in an interview that if the women had helped both sides would have been tainted.

 

There was no good outcome. If LTT hadn't gone to seal the bore, the Dark One would have won. But if the women had helped him, the Dark One would have won. It was a lose-lose, checkmate situation in favor of the Shadow. They managed to narrowly avoid dooming the world, but at the cost of a massively devastating apocalypse and the loss of all male channelers.

 

ETA: link to the interview https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=183

 

It's question number 21. "Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted."

Edited July 5, 2022 by Nik

[DojoToad]

7 minutes ago, Nik said:

RJ said in an interview that if the women had helped both sides would have been tainted.

 

There was no good outcome. If LTT hadn't gone to seal the bore, the Dark One would have won. But if the women had helped him, the Dark One would have won. It was a lose-lose, checkmate situation in favor of the Shadow. They managed to narrowly avoid dooming the world, but at the cost of a massively devastating apocalypse and the loss of all male channelers.

RJ may have said it. But doesn’t make much sense to me. All those fully trained Aes Sedai at the height of knowledge and power couldn’t figure out how to seal the bore safely. But Rand could with a whole two years’ experience…  (and that after cleansing the the taint)

[Mailman]

8 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

Maybe I'm completely misremembering, but wasn't the Dark One able to lash out and taint the male-half of the Source precisely because LTT and the 100 companions weren't using a circle of male and female channelers, and were limited in how they could attack (LTT was forced to touch Saidin to the Bore directly)?

 

As a counter-example, when the EOTW was made, a full circle of female and male channelers were able to create a pool of cleansed Saidin, so there must be some protective benefit to having both halves of the Source used against the taint.

 

 

In short, I think the opposite is true. If a circle was used at the Bore, the taint would not have happened.

 

6 hours ago, Meskell said:

I always took that as the implication I.e. the bore would have been sealed perfectly fine if the female AS had assisted. 
 

The ‘breaking’ to me was both the physical breaking of the land and the moment the female AS said no, as the beginning of the break between male and female in the wider culture. 

There is a difference between actually touching the Dark One and working through the taint.

 

Think of it like this you have a bowl of water and a squeeze bottle of oil. 

 

If the water was to reach up and touch the oil it could do so but at the cost of coating the surface of the water with oil.

 

Then the contact of the bottle and water is over but leaving a film on top of the water. You could then devise a way to work through the film on the surface to get at the clear water underneath without touching the source of the spill again.

 

Saidar and Saidin are both forms of water different but the same and the result would have been the same.

 

The only way to safely touch the Dark One was to basically wrap the the twin water sources in a bubble of oil to prevent direct contact with the Dark One.

[Mailman]

9 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

RJ may have said it. But doesn’t make much sense to me. All those fully trained Aes Sedai at the height of knowledge and power couldn’t figure out how to seal the bore safely. But Rand could with a whole two years’ experience…  (and that after cleansing the the taint)

 

Rand had access to the memories of the most powerful male channeler of the AoL who had attempted the first closing so thats probably the best of source of knowledge ever available.

 

As for the cleansing they did not have the Choedan Kal at that point.

[Nik]

35 minutes ago, Mailman said:

 

Rand had access to the memories of the most powerful male channeler of the AoL who had attempted the first closing so thats probably the best of source of knowledge ever available.

 

As for the cleansing they did not have the Choedan Kal at that point.

 

Yes and they also didn't have the True Power. It's not that the AoL Aes Sedai couldn't figure out. They literally didn't have access to the tools they needed to pull it off.

 

Really like the bubble of oil analogy by the way.

[Andra]

20 hours ago, Nik said:

 

Yes and they also didn't have the True Power. It's not that the AoL Aes Sedai couldn't figure out. They literally didn't have access to the tools they needed to pull it off.

 

Really like the bubble of oil analogy by the way.

Also really important, yet many readers tend to miss, is that part of what Rand needed to know he learned from cleansing the Taint from Saidin.  He learned how to use one of the Powers to control and direct another, while some other third hazardous thing was piped away.  Without directly contacting that third hazardous thing with the first.

A fairly complex and exhausting technique Lews Therin would have never had any cause to have experienced, and without which he couldn't have re-imprisoned the Dark One.

 

One other point - Rand and Nynaeve were using the Choedan Kal for the Cleansing.  

Edited July 5, 2022 by Andra

[DojoToad]

7 hours ago, Mailman said:

 

Rand had access to the memories of the most powerful male channeler of the AoL who had attempted the first closing so thats probably the best of source of knowledge ever available.

 

As for the cleansing they did not have the Choedan Kal at that point.

How complete was Rand's access if  he still needed Asmodean to teach him?  And the books went to great lengths on multiple occasions to emphasize how much information had been lost by both Aes Sedai and in general society.  I'm still not buying that a bit of research by Rand, Min, and Herid plus some input from LTT got Rand to a better place than the knowledge from the AoL.

[SilentRoamer]

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

How complete was Rand's access if  he still needed Asmodean to teach him?  And the books went to great lengths on multiple occasions to emphasize how much information had been lost by both Aes Sedai and in general society.  I'm still not buying that a bit of research by Rand, Min, and Herid plus some input from LTT got Rand to a better place than the knowledge from the AoL.

 

Was it only knowledge that was necessary though? Like for example - I have the knowledge how to roll 50 dice at a time - I can theorize the mathematics to know exactly the chance to throw those dice and get 50 sixes. However, knowing that and being able to do that are totally different things. 

Maybe it required a Tav'eren in order for the exact circumstances necessary to become necessary. Also was Mashadar and Shadar Logoth completely understood during the AoL? I would argue probably not.

It's worth remembering that every chance encounter Rand has is the Wheel Weaving around his thread, on my re-read I am realising how much emphasis is placed on him being Tav'eren as well as his ability to channel and I remember from my first read that that becomes even more apparent (the grain in the warehouse and Rands threat to stop Cadsuanes heart). 

So whilst Lews Therin and the AoL may have had the requisite knowledge it took a specific version of events, as the Wheel Weaved in order for these events to come to pass. (Everything happened exactly as it was supposed to for the Dark One to be sealed, for a New Age to pass and for the Wheel to keep turning. Not only did it work, but it always works, for every turning of the wheel).

That's why Ishamaels treatise were wrong - he didn't realise that if the Dark One EVER broke the Wheel, then the Wheel was always broken. As we know the Wheel is not broken, then the Wheel can never actually be broken. 

 

Wow that got deep and OT. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by SilentRoamer