How different is too different?

[57blueday]

On 1/13/2022 at 10:37 AM, Maximillion said:

 

 

I have my doubts that there will be a season 3.  I am struggling to think of even 1 thing that was done well in the show.  

 

They had a real chance with WoT because the source material was already there to tell a great story that appealed to all viewers, but the showrunner, producers and directors just couldn't resist injecting their own ideology into the story. 

 

To answer the OPs question on 'how different is too different?'... season 1 is your answer.

unless they can back track..I really did NOT care for the first season and I tried HARD.

I also believe there was enough material there to NOT to have to squash it down so badly...the trollics in Two Rivers the FIRST episode?!?!?!?!?

the one boy married, the other having premarital sex...and I don't know Matt's too dirty to find a girl even though his charisma is supposed to be over the top..and Matt's family...oh goodness..his father is supposed to be a well known horse trader, his mother...OHMY Goodness how sad.

I loved in the books how each of the boys thought the other 2 knew how to handle women...it was endearing...LOVE the books..even though I am stuck on book 10...

and HOW can they have so many ethnic groups if they are so secluded? wouldn't they be their OWN ethnic group by now?

[Andra]

On 1/13/2022 at 9:11 AM, Rhavin said:

If u insist… the insignificant little red rise at the end is WoT, the blue rise of GoT at their first season (2011) is about 6 times the traction that WoT gained in its.

 

2 hours ago, Andra said:

If those two graphs are using the same vertical axes, WOT peaked at about 40 for season one, while GOT only hit about 10.  GOT only hit 40 in season five.

I think what's being asked about an "apples to apples" comparison is to see those two things side by side: Season One buzz for each.

The insignificant little rise on this graph looks like it's what's happening in January of 2021.  Long before most people not on this site had heard anything about it.

 

 

Actually, never mind.

I went to Google trends and realized that the vertical axis always puts the 100 as whatever the maximum is for what's being looked at.  So yes, GOT's season one peak (June 2011) was about 9% of its eventual series maximum from S8 (April 2019) .  So far, WOT has only hit 3% of that same maximum.

 

So as far as Google is concerned at least, GOT's first season was three times as buzzy as WOT's.

 

That could be mostly a matter of showing on HBO rather than Amazon.  Which made it much more likely that viewers might stumble on it by accident flipping through channels.  On Amazon, you have to be looking for it.

But I suspect it goes beyond that.

 

[Rhavin]

3 hours ago, Andra said:

If those two graphs are using the same vertical axes, WOT peaked at about 40 for season one, while GOT only hit about 10.  GOT only hit 40 in season five.

Wrong. 100 is always the maximum in google trends, everything is relative to that cap, so the highest trending keyword-cloud gets 100. With season 7 GoT as reference, season 1 GoT is a 10% and WoT a 1% at its peak relative to the traction of GoT at season 7.

[Andra]

33 minutes ago, Rhavin said:

Wrong. 100 is always the maximum in google trends, everything is relative to that cap, so the highest trending keyword-cloud gets 100. With season 7 GoT as reference, season 1 GoT is a 10% and WoT a 1% at its peak relative to the traction of GoT at season 7.

You should read my followup post.

[fra85uk]

11 hours ago, Andra said:

 

 

 

Actually, never mind.

I went to Google trends and realized that the vertical axis always puts the 100 as whatever the maximum is for what's being looked at.  So yes, GOT's season one peak (June 2011) was about 9% of its eventual series maximum from S8 (April 2019) .  So far, WOT has only hit 3% of that same maximum.

 

So as far as Google is concerned at least, GOT's first season was three times as buzzy as WOT's.

 

That could be mostly a matter of showing on HBO rather than Amazon.  Which made it much more likely that viewers might stumble on it by accident flipping through channels.  On Amazon, you have to be looking for it.

But I suspect it goes beyond that.

 

But Prime should be more popular for the simple fact that in many countries (eg here in Italy) people have Prime video included for free when subscribing for the shipping of goods. 

[Cauthonfan4]

2 hours ago, fra85uk said:

But Prime should be more popular for the simple fact that in many countries (eg here in Italy) people have Prime video included for free when subscribing for the shipping of goods

Exactly. Prime gets you far more rhen just streaming. Whereas HBO is strictly shows

[king of nowhere]

i don't care about how different it is; i must have a limit somewhere, but i can take a lot more than the changes they made in the show. worst case, i could watch a show and enjoy it without considering it an actual adaptation of a book.

 

what i do care is if it's well done.

[notpropaganda73]

I would say HBO have built a name for making great television. If I hear HBO have a new drama series, I am most definitely watching it. With Prime, unless I care about the IP already or the show has been raved about to me (this happened with Invincible), I'm not really delving into their original content. 

 

I think Prime are still trying to break through as a recognised name when it comes to streaming. I'd venture that HBO, Netflix, Disney are all ahead of them when it comes to people's list of apps to open up for streaming. Probably competing with AppleTV and Paramount+ at the minute. I would say they hope that WoT and Lord of the Rings are the true breakthroughs for them, even though they've made shows that critics love (Ms Maisel) and fans love (The Boys, Expanse, Invincible), I don't think they've hit a critical mass of fans of their streaming

 

To be honest the awful navigation of their streaming platform doesn't help xD 

[AdamA]

Every HBO show is "buzzier" than Amazon Prime shows. That's just a function of the fact HBO has been around for decades with a reputation for pretty much kicking off the peak TV era. There was a period of 15 years at least, from shortly The Sopranos came out to around the middle of Game of Thrones, when everything that debuted as an HBO primetime show as guaranteed to be in the pop culture discussion. The Ringer was founded with funding from HBO.

 

There have been plenty of great arguments published around season 8 or so that there will never be a "successor" to Game of Thrones, that it was probably the last great example of television monoculture, and the last few years of market fragmentation with every studio trying to launch its own streaming service, means there will never again be that kind of shared experience where something airs at the same time globally and 50 million people all watch it at the same time and then go online to talk about it.

 

I'm not trying to argue Wheel of Time is great or sufficiently buzzy or whatever. If you think it's failed to become popular enough to continue getting funded, fine, but I think Amazon is well aware that it isn't going to match Game of Thrones for cultural impact and ubiquity. Nothing is. To succeed on its own terms, it's going to need to generate more buzz than anything else on Amazon, at least until Lord of the Rings. I think they would like to at least match The Witcher, which I think they haven't really done, but that's a long term goal more than short term, as Netflix is still a much more popular streaming service.

[Lethira the second]

Let's be honest, GoT came out of nowhere and was different and well executed.  That's why it was so well received.  Look at Tiger King, Squid Game and you'll get your answer how to emulate GoT's success; come up with something that captures peoples imagination.  Something different.  

[DaddyFinn]

Nowadays it's enough if a show/movie explodes in TikTok and similar platforms. Success (maybe for a short time) is guaranteed. I had the impression that Squid Game was one of those and it was boooring IMO. Not worth the hype.

Edited January 15, 2022 by DaddyFinn

[Raal Gurniss]

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

Nowadays it's enough if a show/movie explodes in TikTok and similar platforms. Success (maybe for a short time) is guaranteed. I had the impression that Squid Game was one of those and it was boooring IMO. Not worth the hype.

People will say they love a show that is trending on a social platform even if they haven’t seen the show or even know anything about it…

 

I don’t know why they do it, vulnerable to peer pressure perhaps? I know people that do such things and they don’t say why they do it either! They recommend it to people saying how great it is then it turns out they might have watched half an episode total.

[Andra]

8 hours ago, fra85uk said:

But Prime should be more popular for the simple fact that in many countries (eg here in Italy) people have Prime video included for free when subscribing for the shipping of goods. 

True, but you still have to look for it.  You can't stumble across it flipping through channels.

 

Interesting tidbit: That's actually how I discovered GOT.  I hadn't seen any ads for it, and discovered the first episode while channel-surfing.

[flinn]

On 1/14/2022 at 12:03 PM, Deviations said:

I almost laughed the first time one of my kids tried that with me.  For the Am Seat to fall for it is an issue.

 Just another example to pile on top of the plethora of examples of really bad, lazy writing. Rafe was/is completely unprepared for this project, and the writers he brought on are as bad as he is.

[EmreY]

On 1/14/2022 at 9:03 PM, Deviations said:

I almost laughed the first time one of my kids tried that with me.  For the Am Seat to fall for it is an issue.

 

7 hours ago, flinn said:

 Just another example to pile on top of the plethora of examples of really bad, lazy writing. Rafe was/is completely unprepared for this project, and the writers he brought on are as bad as he is.

 

I don't think Siuan fell for anything.

 

And you kids don't have the authority, if they think you're behaving unreasonably, to band together and kick you out of your job and home.

[WhiteVeils]

I've been listening to the Wheel Takes with Ali and Gus podcast (here:  Wheel Takes (buzzsprout.com)).  Ali is a professional scriptwriter and script 'polisher' (person who takes earlier drafts of scripts and cleans them up to be made professionally) for movies and television.  I used to wonder if those people saying the writing for this show is lazy or sloppy had a point, but after listening to it analyzed on this podcast, I just have to laugh. There is NOTHING about this series that is done lazily and thoughtlessly.  

Every change has been done for a reason, very intentionally, to heighten clarity or increase audience engagement and enjoyment.  So much of the point of what is going on that seems like changes are to set things up for future seasons.  They want to tell the whole story and they're doing everything that they possibly can to be able to give you ALL those moments you want, not just EOTW moments.

Edited January 16, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[fra85uk]

18 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

I've been listening to the Wheel Takes with Ali and Gus podcast (here:  Wheel Takes (buzzsprout.com)).  Ali is a professional scriptwriter and script 'polisher' (person who takes earlier drafts of scripts and cleans them up to be made professionally) for movies and television.  I used to wonder if those people saying the writing for this show is lazy or sloppy had a point, but after listening to it analyzed on this podcast, I just have to laugh. There is NOTHING about this series that is done lazily and thoughtlessly.  

Every change has been done for a reason, very intentionally, to heighten clarity or increase audience engagement and enjoyment.  So much of the point of what is going on that seems like changes are to set things up for future seasons.  They want to tell the whole story and they're doing everything that they possibly can to be able to give you ALL those moments you want, not just EOTW moments.

But nobody doubts that changes Have been done for no reason. 

Just that the reasons (for some of us) are wrong and don't serve the purposes that the writers wanted them to serve.

 

But I think now that some weeks Have passed from Season finale the the  "pro" and "anti" arguments have been eviscerated. 

[Raal Gurniss]

41 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

I've been listening to the Wheel Takes with Ali and Gus podcast (here:  Wheel Takes (buzzsprout.com)).  Ali is a professional scriptwriter and script 'polisher' (person who takes earlier drafts of scripts and cleans them up to be made professionally) for movies and television.  I used to wonder if those people saying the writing for this show is lazy or sloppy had a point, but after listening to it analyzed on this podcast, I just have to laugh. There is NOTHING about this series that is done lazily and thoughtlessly.  

Every change has been done for a reason, very intentionally, to heighten clarity or increase audience engagement and enjoyment.  So much of the point of what is going on that seems like changes are to set things up for future seasons.  They want to tell the whole story and they're doing everything that they possibly can to be able to give you ALL those moments you want, not just EOTW moments.

So….The show is perfection?

[WhiteVeils]

20 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

But nobody doubts that changes Have been done for no reason. 

Just that the reasons (for some of us) are wrong and don't serve the purposes that the writers wanted them to serve.

 

But I think now that some weeks Have passed from Season finale the the  "pro" and "anti" arguments have been eviscerated. 

I 100% KNOW no changes have been made for no reason. Every single change was made for a reason.

[WhiteVeils]

1 minute ago, Raal Gurniss said:

So….The show is perfection?

It's not perfection. Nothing is. The books aren't perfection. It's a very good adaption of The Wheel of Time Book 1.

[fra85uk]

Just now, WhiteVeils said:

I 100% KNOW no changes have been made for no reason. Every single change was made for a reason.

Yes i agree 100% (maybe i was not clear)

Just that i don't agree with these reasons and don't think that the implementation was well done anyway

[WhiteVeils]

28 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Yes i agree 100% (maybe i was not clear)

Just that i don't agree with these reasons and don't think that the implementation was well done anyway

I guess if we believe the changes were done for a reason, the question then becomes: What is a valid reason for a change?  Is time a good reason? Money?  Clarity?  Logistics? Amazon management appeal? (with the corresponding money) Audience engagement? International audience? US audience (and which "Part" of the US Audience?  Women? Men? Older? Younger? Liberal? Conservative? Highly educated?  Poorly educated?)  
If what you want is for the whole book series to come to the screen, you have to want it to be made into at least 8 seasons.  Which means audience engagement, which means mass appeal to international and domestic audiences.

 

Unfortunately, an audience too small to be worth pursuing on its own is book fans.  So, changes.

Edited January 16, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[EmreY]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

I've been listening to the Wheel Takes with Ali and Gus podcast (here:  Wheel Takes (buzzsprout.com)).  Ali is a professional scriptwriter and script 'polisher' (person who takes earlier drafts of scripts and cleans them up to be made professionally) for movies and television.  I used to wonder if those people saying the writing for this show is lazy or sloppy had a point, but after listening to it analyzed on this podcast, I just have to laugh. There is NOTHING about this series that is done lazily and thoughtlessly.  

Every change has been done for a reason, very intentionally, to heighten clarity or increase audience engagement and enjoyment.  So much of the point of what is going on that seems like changes are to set things up for future seasons.  They want to tell the whole story and they're doing everything that they possibly can to be able to give you ALL those moments you want, not just EOTW moments.

 

I've watched the series again and asked myself the question why they would do what they did when the veered away from canon, and while I'm not a huge fan of what was put in its place, I can see why I might have made similar changes.

 

Some changes which at the time caused great offence (not necessarily to me, though I might have been surprised) I now find rather trivial.

 

If you have anything that irks you above all else (not generic gender "bias" please, but specific is OK), ask away.

Edited January 16, 2022 by EmreY

[Cauthonfan4]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

Every change has been done for a reason, very intentionally, to heighten clarity or increase audience engagement and enjoyment

Yeah like the clarity of if magic is split or not.

 

Oh wait

[Tamal]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

I've been listening to the Wheel Takes with Ali and Gus podcast (here:  Wheel Takes (buzzsprout.com)).  Ali is a professional scriptwriter and script 'polisher' (person who takes earlier drafts of scripts and cleans them up to be made professionally) for movies and television.  I used to wonder if those people saying the writing for this show is lazy or sloppy had a point, but after listening to it analyzed on this podcast, I just have to laugh. There is NOTHING about this series that is done lazily and thoughtlessly.  

Every change has been done for a reason, very intentionally, to heighten clarity or increase audience engagement and enjoyment.  So much of the point of what is going on that seems like changes are to set things up for future seasons.  They want to tell the whole story and they're doing everything that they possibly can to be able to give you ALL those moments you want, not just EOTW moments.

I took a listen to a couple of the episodes, and I found the podcast to be absolutely ridiculous. It is completely devoid of criticism, and sounds like hours of commercials. You're right. They defend every change, and it makes the whole "discussion" useless.