How different do you think the show would have been with 10 episodes, and if they had been given a full budget (like GOT season 1 funding) and if Mat hadn't been recast? (SPOILERS)

[Dagon Thyne]

OK, we know that Amazon limited them to 8 episodes, which forced them to condense A LOT more than they should have needed to.  How do you think they would have done each episode, and the show overall if they had been given 10 episodes?

 

I think that having 8 episodes, but with the season premier and finale being two hours each instead of one hour would have been best.  It would have allowed them to include not only far more detail before and after winternight, and allowed the characters to have a proper level of development and better set of them being forced to leave the two rivers.  I think they would have included Baerlon, and introduced Min there, instead of in Tar Valon.  I doubt they would have gone to Tar Valon at all.  With the extra two hours, and more money, I think they would have included Caemlyn, and introduced Elayne, Gawyn (AKA most hated good guy in all of literature), Galad, Morgause, etc. 

Maybe they could have even had White Bridge include an actual WHITE BRIDGE instead of that run down rickety thing they had in the show.  (If im mistaken, and the village Rand and Mat meet Thom in wasn't White Bridge, please tell me because that really bothered me that they could even be bothered to make the bridge look like it should.  

 

And they also likely would have been able to include several secondary but still important characters like Elias, 

 

And if Im being honest, if they had been given a GOT level budget, I would have loved to see them have a few major names to some of the smaller, but important parts.  Ishy, for example, since he's only going to make a few appearances in the first few seasons, before ding and being recast as Moridin, I would have loved them them to have tried to get someone like Michael Fassbender, or some other A level actor.  Same with Morgause.  She's a small role until much later on.  If they had included Caemlyn, they could have gotten someone like Nicole Kidman.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dagon Thyne]

I think Mat would have definitely been shown to still have the dagger, and it be him who finds and confronts Fain, not Perrin.  I think Daniel Greene hit the nail on the head in his reviews, when he said it seems like that entire scene was written for Mat and they just copy and pasted Perrin into it instead of rewriting it.  

 

I think that they would have included the Siuan's visit to Far Dara and the attack on the keep, and stayed closer to the source material overall with more time and a bigger budget.

[Ralph]

On 1/2/2022 at 4:51 AM, Dagon Thyne said:

If im mistaken, and the village Rand and Mat meet Thom in wasn't White Bridge, please tell me because that really bothered me that they could even be bothered to make the bridge look like it should.  

 

 

 

 

 

It was not Whitebridge

[fra85uk]

8 episodes + decent writers/showrunner = covering all the books major points, maybe still a little bit rushed.

10 episodes + Rafe's forsakens = more bad writing, inconsistencies and made-up cheap storylines

10 episodes + good writers/showrunner = covering all the books major point + time for go deeper in worldbuilding and lore + time to set up the Seanchan and the plots of season2

[king of nowhere]

i still think they'd have included tar valon and not caemlyn, for casting reasons.

 

that said, we'd have gotten a lot more development for thom, loial, and maybe a less rushed finale. more worldbuilding too; would have liked to spend some more time in the ways

[MasterAblar]

Didn't Rafe say that they held back on the Perrin wolf stuff because it would give away he wasn't the Dragon Reborn? Or at least partly for that? Don't think they would have introduced Elyas regardless. One of the issues of the DR mystery.

 

Episode 8 definitely would have been better although still would have had issues. I think the 1st episode would have benefited most, since it felt incredibly rushed.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

Funny you say "if" WoT had a GoT level budget because season 1 WoT had a higher budget than GoT season 1 and somehow looks significantly worse than a show that's 10 years old haha 

 

Anyway, I actually think that 8 episodes should have worked just fine. 10 would have been ideal, but 8 is plenty. 

 

My Fantasy Rewrite: 

Episode 1: Winternight and leaving Emond's field

Episode 2: Baerlon (Introduce Whitecloaks

Episode 3: Shadar Logoth 

Episode 4: Team is Separated and out on the road. 

Episode 5: Rand and Mat in Caemlyn by themselves. Egwene and Perrin with Whitecloaks. 

Episode 6: Team meets up in Caemlyn and sets off through the Ways

Episode 7: The Ways and Fal Dara. Ends with the Team going off into the Blight. 

Episode 8: Eye of the World and Tarwin's Gap. 

 

I think an extended/two part first episode would have definitely been welcome, but my sense with the series wasn't that 8 episodes was too few. It was that the showrunners wasted so much time on show-original bullcrap that they then had to rush all the stuff that was actually in the books. 

 

However, if you were gonna add two extra episodes, I think expanding on the stuff that happens while the group was separated would have been nice. 

[Jaysen Gore]

this thread needs more Covid acknowledgement.  I'm positive Covid wrecked the Logain followers attack, the Fal Dara attack, and the Blight scenes (see Canary Island location shots vs CGI blight, with related budget implications). So as bad as episode 8 was, there's a little voice telling me not to judge them too badly for it.  Especially when you add Harris's departure in.

 

If Harris doesn't leave, it's Mat bleeding instead of Loial, and we see Fain steal the dagger here. Perrin / Loial go with Lan to help track Moiraine

 

With 10 episodes instead of 8, I think the Fade in EF is the end of episode 1 - with all that missing character build for the EF5 - and the departure the end of episode 2.  Episode 8 would be 9, and then I would have done the start of book 2 as episode 10, with the Amyrlin come to FD, and Rand trapped in the castle, worrying he's going to get gentled.

[WoTwasThat]

None of these excuses explain The Big Changes (TM), which are at the heart of why the series is leaving such a bad taste in my mouth, and many others.

 

They needed more time? They had Eight. Hours. - the equivalent of a trilogy of full length feature movies - to adapt about 2/3 of one book (after cutting Caemlyn and most of Rand & Mat's Backpacking Trip, which I agree with). That's more than enough time. If anything, they had too much time, which is why we were treated to what seemed like hours of "maybe you're the Dragon, maybe I'm the Dragon, maybe Bela's the Dragon" dialogue. Ugh.

 

Covid does not explain The Big Changes.

 

Mat's early departure does not explain The Big Changes.

 

Lack of funding (really?!) does not explain The Big Changes.

 

None of this explains Super Go Go Power Ranger Nynaeve, or brushing aside Saidin / Saidin, or Let's All Be The Dragon, or making Season 1 about The Mystery, or solving said The Mystery with a montage of Machin Chin and Rand playing detective with Min, or Lan and Nyn's cheap hookup, or The Dumbest Plan of All Time to take a totally untested noob to face the Dark One, or mangling The Eye, or that bizarrely flat scene with LTT (aka "the Dragon Reborn").

[aclund3]

Covid, Harris' departure, and episode count all had their parts to play.  But if we're honest, covid wasn't an issue for ep 1-6 and Harris was still there.  Editing was a continuous roller coaster throughout the season.  Extending ep 1 to have a more cohesive leaving of EF could've been beneficial, but I'm not sure more episodes would've helped all that much based on what we saw in ep1-6 (unless they added more mat/rand/thom on the road, I could take a whole episode there, haha).

In my opinion, Ep 7/8 were busted due to covid and Harris' departure.  They tried to put it together but it was an impossible task, I think.  No Sanderson pre-shoot review?  No ability for large crowds?  Actors schedules, location shoots, who knows what else all messed up due to Covid?  Yes, they could've have overcome these issues and I wish they had.  And maybe Amazon delaying release to give the editors more time would've helped, but I'm not certain even the core of what they had initially intended for ep 7/8 made it to screen.

One could look at the whole of the first season as a pattern.  I think we saw the results of removing one of the major threads (harris) and covid repeatedly bashing into the loom.  More episodes doesn't fix that.

[Spiritweaver1]

Interesting thread here.  My biggest troubles with this show are not due to Covid, Harris or money.  It is my feeling that the Destroyer of Hope, Rafe  (and his elves) think they can create a better story.  I personally don't care if they eliminated Caemlyn.  They eliminated a whole bunch of stuff which had to be done but they inserted a bunch of made up material and that is where the problem starts.  Does anybody recall where the Bore actually is, in the books?  A considerable portion of AMOL happens in that vicinity and the terrain is just wrong to make it all work out.   The Seanchan channeling a tidal wave to wipe out one girl on a beach.  Really?   Shienarian's not using their cavalry to defend Fal Dara?  It is just amateur hour in the fantasy writing department.   If we fire the writing staff and show runner  and hire replacements who are willing to at least review the source material then improving the CGI/VFX would be the next stage.   Interesting about Rosamund Pike and next season.  Thats not what I worry about because they can always find something to do say back in TV.  However coming up, perhaps in Season three she dances with a girl into the land of the Finn cousins and disappears completely for a very long time perhaps to the season finale.  As several commentators here on DM have said she is money to the suits so she won't be going anywhere.  Anyway by the time we are done with next season this show will be to the WoT as Scrooged is to A Christmas Carol.  That doom has nothing to do with the three things that are the premise of this thread.

[Jaysen Gore]

44 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Interesting thread here.  My biggest troubles with this show are not due to Covid, Harris or money.  It is my feeling that the Destroyer of Hope, Rafe  (and his elves) think they can create a better story.  I personally don't care if they eliminated Caemlyn.  They eliminated a whole bunch of stuff which had to be done but they inserted a bunch of made up material and that is where the problem starts.  Does anybody recall where the Bore actually is, in the books?  A considerable portion of AMOL happens in that vicinity and the terrain is just wrong to make it all work out.   The Seanchan channeling a tidal wave to wipe out one girl on a beach.  Really?   Shienarian's not using their cavalry to defend Fal Dara?  It is just amateur hour in the fantasy writing department.   If we fire the writing staff and show runner  and hire replacements who are willing to at least review the source material then improving the CGI/VFX would be the next stage.   Interesting about Rosamund Pike and next season.  Thats not what I worry about because they can always find something to do say back in TV.  However coming up, perhaps in Season three she dances with a girl into the land of the Finn cousins and disappears completely for a very long time perhaps to the season finale.  As several commentators here on DM have said she is money to the suits so she won't be going anywhere.  Anyway by the time we are done with next season this show will be to the WoT as Scrooged is to A Christmas Carol.  That doom has nothing to do with the three things that are the premise of this thread.

Readers know where the Bore is; Moiraine does not. She must unlearn what she has learned.  All of the Aes Sedai must. The production could have several rationales for their change on this front. 

 

The tsunami could have had a legit military function, if a bad application due to the cliff.  Yeah, alright, it was dumb.

 

There was probably no cavalry usage or melee due at the Gap to Covid. Or the budget went poof because they had to do a CGI blight, and there was no money for the extras with horses. Either way - Covid and Money

 

You're probably 2 seasons too early on her dance scene, and without the slog, she's probably gone less than two years. Less, if they move up the rescue. Or she doesn't fall through - doubtful - then Cadsuane gets replaced, and Mo doesn't go anywhere.

 

Improving the CGI is money.  Oh, and Covid, since they couldn't actually work in professional editing suites for post-production and collaborate to ensure they had the shots they wanted. Or do pick up shots on location. 

 

I am somewhat sympathetic to your frustrations, but it reads to me like you do not believe Rafe and his team have good intentions, or that they were doing what they could in a miserable situation, and that they are willfully trying to destroy your hopes.  If you don't at least give them the benefit of the doubt that they have a plan for the series, you might as well give up now, and just read the books again. Because nothing they do will ever please you. And why would you want to spend a decade with something that makes you miserable?

 

 

[ArrylT]

According to this site  $1 in 2011 is now worth $1.24 today due to inflationary costs.

 

Assuming $6 million per GOT S1 episode that is today $7.4 million

 

https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/2011?amount=6000000

 

Also no idea if GOT had to create their own production studio from the ground up (which was done for WoT).  

 

Anyways just noting between cost of inflation, cost of production & cost of covid measures (2 seperate covid stoppages on top of covid protocols in place) it seems reasonable to me to equate the budget amounts as being relatively similar.

 

I think WoT has had to spend more on production costs than GOT per episode.  For example GOT chose to (or got to) use a lot of pre-existing locations  whereas WOT has chosen to build from the ground up a lot of its locations - EF, SL & TV as key examples.   

 

You can view the list of locations filmed at here:

 

https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Game_of_Thrones_filming_locations

 

Whether we agree on the value of the $ spent is subjective - just feel that WoT has had more unexpected & needed expenditures so the value per dollar may be less.   We'll see how S2 goes.  And time will give us more information on which a basis ones decisions can be made - a quick look at both Wiki pages can easily show that we have a much larger wealth of information on what was involved in GOT at this time.

[Gothic Flame]

36 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I am somewhat sympathetic to your frustrations, but it reads to me like you do not believe Rafe and his team have good intentions, or that they were doing what they could in a miserable situation, and that they are willfully trying to destroy your hopes.  If you don't at least give them the benefit of the doubt that they have a plan for the series, you might as well give up now, and just read the books again. Because nothing they do will ever please you. And why would you want to spend a decade with something that makes you miserable?

Do you think Rafe took the job not knowing what he was signing up for? This is his production, warts and all.

 

 

[WoTwasThat]

WOT’s dry cleaning bill probably ate up a ton of the budget. It isn’t cheap keeping all those outfits so pristine. ?

[Jaysen Gore]

23 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Do you think Rafe took the job not knowing what he was signing up for? This is his production, warts and all.

 

 

If you set aside the Covid / Harris situations? yep, I think Rafe knew exactly what he was signing up for. And I'm on the record that I think he has a plan - level of detail tbd - about what he wants to do with the Series as a whole. And from what I can see - again, barring Covid and Harris - he's doing what he set out to do. As you say, it is his production.

 

My question was about whether or not people think Rafe has specifically set out to intentionally piss in the cornflakes of every book reader, or if he has sincerely set out to tell as good an interpretation of the Wheel of Time as he can within the constraints he has being given by Amazon, and his knowledge of the TV medium.

 

I personally believe that I can see enough justification for many of the changes he's making to the story and plot and how it ties in to things that happen later in the books, that I can accept that there is a plan.  I may not like it, and may not end up enjoying the result, but nothing I've seen from him makes me think he doesn't know what he's doing, or that he's simply breaking his toys so other people can't play with them.

[flinn]

 I feel like Rafe wanted to blow up his career ala GoT D&D, but learned his lesson that if the show is too close to the book, the author gets most of the credit. He wants to write his own mediocre story using the Wheel of Time name for the funding and the WoT fanbase for publicity and a big audience right away. I think he figured by the end of the season enough viewers that he could take the story any where he wanted.

[EmreY]

8 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

this thread needs more Covid acknowledgement.  I'm positive Covid wrecked the Logain followers attack, the Fal Dara attack, and the Blight scenes (see Canary Island location shots vs CGI blight, with related budget implications). So as bad as episode 8 was, there's a little voice telling me not to judge them too badly for it.  Especially when you add Harris's departure in.

 

If Harris doesn't leave, it's Mat bleeding instead of Loial, and we see Fain steal the dagger here. Perrin / Loial go with Lan to help track Moiraine

 

With 10 episodes instead of 8, I think the Fade in EF is the end of episode 1 - with all that missing character build for the EF5 - and the departure the end of episode 2.  Episode 8 would be 9, and then I would have done the start of book 2 as episode 10, with the Amyrlin come to FD, and Rand trapped in the castle, worrying he's going to get gentled.

 

In addition to which, anti-Covid measures seem to raise costs by anywhere from 10 to 30%:

 

https://labusinessjournal.com/news/2021/dec/06/film-commission-report-highlights-covid-costs-prod/

 

Quote

For a larger production like Netflix Inc.’s “Beverly Hills Cop 4,” the Business Journal estimates it spent more than $7 million of its almost $80 million in qualified expenditures on Covid-related costs.

 

https://www.kftv.com/news/2021/06/28/global-film-and-tv-production-spend-rose-by-16-in-2020-despite-covid

 

Quote

the cost of introducing and monitoring COVID protocols in 2020 added 20%-30% to production budgets.

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by EmreY

[fra85uk]

As one disgusted by the level of the show, i want to make it clear that i do not think people enjoying it are idiots. I for example enjoy the Supernatural series but I know that, objectively, is not great tv.

 

[Quiksilver]

More time to trainwreck.

 

We would have just seen 10 bad episodes instead of 8.

[MasterAblar]

2 hours ago, Kitchener said:

You could give Rafe and Amazon 100 episodes, and this series would still be utter garbage. The only thing similarity to Robert Jordan's amazing series is afew names, and that's where it ends.

And it is extremely disappointing to find that a web site, who owes its existence to this amazing series and it's author, is not more vocal and scathing of this atrocious series. 

If you want echo chambers on the internet where people will throw your own opinions right back at you, they exist, but that’s not this place.

[Lethira the second]

I don't see that giving more time and money would improve things.

 

The choice to make a secret of who the Dragon Reborn was and play it up as a mystery failed for me.  It had fans pissed off because they were hinting the girls might be it, and overall they didn't spend enough time with the EF5 to flesh out why it might be Mat or Perrin.  It's also pretty easy to Google who is the Dragon Reborn and get to the answer.  There was no mystery to lean into but still they did it.

 

Across the board, there were production issues -bad blocking, clumsy framing, time wasted on 'cool looking shots' that didn't really add to the story.  The whole world felt empty -even in the scenes filmed pre-Covid.  The fight scenes in episode 4 looked like something out of a college production, where they had just learned to play with pyrotechnics.

 

There were some nice moments and certainly parts that fleshed things out, there were also a lot of unearned emotional beats.  Episode 1 when you barely know the characters name and you get hit with Roose Bolton crying and lighting a candle, then everyone looking sad at lamps on the river.  If we had a chance to get to know the characters a little better that would have been a good scene.  I just didn't care about them and it felt indulgent.

 

Having Moiraine out of commission for so long, so early -again that was a miss.  If it was supposed to be foreshadowing something -well, they could have spent the time better.  Like have her get to know the boys.

 

Signs are they are writing S2 to spend more time with Moiraine and Lan than we get in the books (to get more out the two actors) that's no way to drive a story.  For me, most of the issues can be laid at the feet of the "writers" and the decisions they have made.

[Quiksilver]

1. they had a full budget, arguably on par with GoT s01

 

2. Barney only arguably affected Ep7 & 8, they finished filming 1-6 before he left. They pumped out 1-6 with full budget, before covid, and with barney. 1-6 were generally junk.

[DaddyFinn]

53 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

It's also pretty easy to Google who is the Dragon Reborn and get to the answer.

I don't understand why this is brought up so often. What does it matter if every single detail of the series is available on the internet? 

[Lethira the second]

4 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I don't understand why this is brought up so often. What does it matter if every single detail of the series is available on the internet? 

 

I bring it up, because they were playing it to be a mystery when there was no mystery to be had -unless they changed who the DR was.  I also believe that playing into the mystery of 'who is the dragon' cost character development for Mat and Perrin.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Lethira the second