Why Do they keep acting as if the dragon reborn can be female?

[Kazhvar]

The actors keep referring to the DR as he or she but the DR cannot possibly be a she sine Saidar was never tainted by the Dark one. Why is this in the show? Its extremely confusing when you're trying to explain the entire background and lore of the world to someone and you're having to argue with the show...

[JenniferL]

This has been discussed in multiple places, so I’ll quickly answer for you. Rafe wanted to play up the idea that characters were frequently working from incomplete or even inaccurate information, causing many misunderstandings. So one of the changes is that there are several versions of the prophecies of the dragon and the Aes Sedai aren’t sure which to believe. One of them says the Dragon could potentially be a woman. 
 

There were multiple versions of the Karathon Cycle in the books as well. The Seanchan version said that the Dragon would kneel before the Crystal Throne, for example. 

[Kazhvar]

So these are changes made by the people making the show? I don't recall seeing anything in the books suggesting it could be female simply based upon the fact Saidar was never tainted.

[Reader]

1 minute ago, Kazhvar said:

So these are changes made by the people making the show? I don't recall seeing anything in the books suggesting it could be female simply based upon the fact Saidar was never tainted.

Just accept it as something that they thought was needed to get the show made, that won't change the overall story too much. Until it does. Save the pitchforks until then.

[Gothic Flame]

The question

39 minutes ago, Kazhvar said:

The actors keep referring to the DR as he or she but the DR cannot possibly be a she sine Saidar was never tainted by the Dark one. Why is this in the show? Its extremely confusing when you're trying to explain the entire background and lore of the world to someone and you're having to argue with the show...

It's gets better...try figuring out a five-headed dragon. (Or was it a multi-headed Dragon that was mentioned?)

[king of nowhere]

it's even explained in the latest (6th) episode, in the conversation between moiraine and siuan

"the prophecies say"

"the prophecies we have are copies of translations of translations of translations! who knows how much stuff got confused or lost in the process!"

 

so, as far as we know, the lore is not changed. the characters are not as sure of their prophecies as they were in the books

[JenniferL]

14 minutes ago, Kazhvar said:

So these are changes made by the people making the show? I don't recall seeing anything in the books suggesting it could be female simply based upon the fact Saidar was never tainted.

Yes, it’s a change made by the show. But they tried to ground it in the themes of the story and some of the established lore. I think they did it to help foreground the importance of Nyn and Eg early on. Rafe has said in interviews that WoT becomes more of an ensemble story about three or four books in and he wanted to start it off that way so the shift wasn’t abrupt. 
 

I think the logic of a lady dragon kinda falls apart when you think about what part of the Source was tainted, but I guess that’s why the Aes Sedai keep saying that they are worried about the Dragon joining the Dark One instead of defeating him. It doesn’t break the story for me though, because I’ve seen interviews with Josha talking about how excited he is to be playing the savior. 

[Agitel]

Aside from us knowing Jordan's comments on the nature of souls in the book WOT-verse and how specific the prophecies are in the books, I don't see why it matters which side of the source was tainted. Oh, thematically and the drama of the savior-destined-to-go-mad, of course, but "only the male half was tainted" doesn't by itself seem like a metaphysically binding rule that would require a male savior.

[Zarathustra]

2 hours ago, Kazhvar said:

The actors keep referring to the DR as he or she but the DR cannot possibly be a she sine Saidar was never tainted by the Dark one. Why is this in the show? Its extremely confusing when you're trying to explain the entire background and lore of the world to someone and you're having to argue with the show...

Because they ignored the source material and the known lore about the heroes bound to the wheel.  It's unfortunately starting to look as if there are going to be multiple DRs (the multi headed dragon bit).  Then again, they've almost completely ignored Rand and focused on the other 4 in a silly attempt to misdirect--maybe he's still going to be the DR.

[Sabio]

The only thing Moiraine should be sure of is the age of the Dragon since she was there during the fortelling.  It's Moiraine wondering if Nyn or Logain could be the dragon is the thing that drives me nuts.  

 

Rand is the DR, Rafe already said if you've read the books then you know who the DR is, this is just to add suspense for the people who haven't read the books.  The fact they cut out Tam's fever dream and have gone out of their way to not make Rand seem special.  Mat acting weird (planting suspicion that maybe can channel), Perin's eyes, Egwene's and Nyn's power, and yet nothing for Rand.  Just to draw attention away from him.  The fever dream would have given him away almost instantly.  Problem is they have made him seem so normal that when he is outed many will probably go huh?  The quick look at the Aiel hair and his smashing out a wall (which anyone not reading the books probably won't understand how he did it).

[chri5]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

it's even explained in the latest (6th) episode, in the conversation between moiraine and siuan

"the prophecies say"

"the prophecies we have are copies of translations of translations of translations! who knows how much stuff got confused or lost in the process!"

 

so, as far as we know, the lore is not changed. the characters are not as sure of their prophecies as they were in the books

It is interesting.  They actually do say this in the books, but then they all go back to one cannon version.

 

In TSR Moiraine tells something similar to The Dragon as s/he is looking through the translations of the KC in the Stone of Tear.

 

She isn't even sure and needs to ask someone behind a special doorway for some help.

[chri5]

44 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Aside from us knowing Jordan's comments on the nature of souls in the book WOT-verse and how specific the prophecies are in the books, I don't see why it matters which side of the source was tainted. Oh, thematically and the drama of the savior-destined-to-go-mad, of course, but "only the male half was tainted" doesn't by itself seem like a metaphysically binding rule that would require a male savior.

The Dragon has to come from the tainted side of the power.  The Dragon needs to be insane to hear LTT (or equivalent). 

[Variant]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

it's even explained in the latest (6th) episode, in the conversation between moiraine and siuan

"the prophecies say"

"the prophecies we have are copies of translations of translations of translations! who knows how much stuff got confused or lost in the process!"

 

so, as far as we know, the lore is not changed. the characters are not as sure of their prophecies as they were in the books

 

It makes little sense for Moraine and Siuan to be so covert about looking for the Dragon Reborn if the Dragon Reborn didn't need to be a man who can channel.  That is the heresy that would get them in trouble with the rest of the tower and especially the red sisters.

 

If the Dragon can be reborn as a woman free of the taint...  Then why A.  would everyone in the world, especially the white tower so afraid of the prospect and B. why would men, especially men who could channel keep claiming to be the Dragon Reborn.

[The Purple Ajah]

8 minutes ago, Variant said:

 

It makes little sense for Moraine and Siuan to be so covert about looking for the Dragon Reborn if the Dragon Reborn didn't need to be a man who can channel.  That is the heresy that would get them in trouble with the rest of the tower and especially the red sisters.

 

If the Dragon can be reborn as a woman free of the taint...  Then why A.  would everyone in the world, especially the white tower so afraid of the prospect and B. why would men, especially men who could channel keep claiming to be the Dragon Reborn.

A) Because a female Dragon would probably be envisioned as something like a mega-powerful wilder warlord, who is still destined to potentially break the world again (which is still possible if saidar's uncorrupted, the vast majority of LTT's actions that led to the Breaking happened when saidin was still uncorrupted) and have all nations bow before her. Seems pretty darn scary to me: it's like how, a "sane dictator" is a different kind of scary than a "mad dictator", and not necessarily better, because they know the exact way to inflict pain on you. 

 

B) Many women and men have claimed themselves as False Dragons. Why does anyone declare themselves a False Dragon, usually because of true belief, and a desire for power or to become some sort of messiah. I don't see how that's really affected.

[Variant]

22 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

A) Because a female Dragon would probably be envisioned as something like a mega-powerful wilder warlord, who is still destined to potentially break the world again (which is still possible if saidar's uncorrupted, the vast majority of LTT's actions that led to the Breaking happened when saidin was still uncorrupted) and have all nations bow before her. Seems pretty darn scary to me: it's like how, a "sane dictator" is a different kind of scary than a "mad dictator", and not necessarily better, because they know the exact way to inflict pain on you. 

 

In the shows plotline they kept the part where they knew enough about the dragon to find them pretty early in their life.  In this instance I would expect the white tower to want to indoctrinate such a person early as well as wanting to train them.

 

In the show it makes sense that they've kept it a secret because they don't know which of them is the Dragon, but in general I don't see why they would be so worried about wanting to find the person in general if one were looking for, possibly, the most powerful female channeler of all time, destined to fight the dark one in the last battle.

 

22 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

 

B) Many women and men have claimed themselves as False Dragons. Why does anyone declare themselves a False Dragon, usually because of true belief, and a desire for power or to become some sort of messiah. I don't see how that's really affected.

 

Fair enough.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Variant

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Sabio said:

The only thing Moiraine should be sure of is the age of the Dragon since she was there during the fortelling.  It's Moiraine wondering if Nyn or Logain could be the dragon is the thing that drives me nuts. 

 

we know the gitra moroso foretelling (if they didn't change it from the books).

but did she specifically said "right now"? sure, she pretty strongly implied it, but aes sedai should know what to make of pretty strong implication.

and so moiraine and siuan think they understood the gitara foretelling right, but - when confronted by someone who seem like a good fit - they have doubts. maybe we misunderstood? maybe there's some other subtle meaning that we missed?

after all, the prophecies are full of cryptic stuff.

[fitzwell]

The shows I guess don't have any cannon so they can do whatever they want...  Might as well ask how Logain saw Nynaeve channel.  Same deal, because Rafe says so.

[chri5]

38 minutes ago, fitzwell said:

The shows I guess don't have any cannon so they can do whatever they want...  Might as well ask how Logain saw Nynaeve channel.  Same deal, because Rafe says so.

i think the real reason is that in the show they (mistakenly) believe it might be a female. And in the show nothing has shown them that the female suspects are not it. 
 

once I accept that premise (since that is what is happening in the actual show), then it makes sense that it might be a lady still. 
 

besides, the dragon will be known soon enough. 

[Storeebooq]

I can't recall if it was books, or from RJ interviews, but it was stated that in the past turnings of the wheel, there had also been women Dragons. Just that, in the books, the current turning of the wheel's Dragon was tied to Lews Therin, who happened to be a man. 

 

 

[expat]

Quote

"the prophecies we have are copies of translations of translations of translations! who knows how much stuff got confused or lost in the process!"

I have thought about it in the context of Biblical scholarship.  We have the Dead Sea scrolls, the greek originals, hebrew translations, Roman translations, apostate gospels etc.  We end up with a cannon Bible, but lots of questions about how it changed from the oral traditions to the written versions.

[TheSmurf]

This is one of the changes (that the prophecies could be misleading that a woman could be the Dragon) is not one of my issues with the show. They explain it well and it's totally reasonable. I'd prefer that Moraine / Siuan would be more confident in the Foretelling, but again, it's not unreasonable that in such a crazy situation, with two such powerful channellers popping up, there would be doubt.

 

Would prefer they would stick to their guns re the 4 others only. Having so many little changes... Well, straws, camels comes to mind, for me.

[DigificWriter]

11 hours ago, Kazhvar said:

The actors keep referring to the DR as he or she but the DR cannot possibly be a she sine Saidar was never tainted by the Dark one. Why is this in the show? Its extremely confusing when you're trying to explain the entire background and lore of the world to someone and you're having to argue with the show...

 

The show has altered the metaphysics of the WoT world by degendering souls, which means that someone who was a man in a previous life - i.e. the Dragon - can be reincarnated as a woman, and vice-versa.

 

The show has also lessened people's certainty about the truthfulness of prophecy and belief in legends.

[Daenelia]

Because the viewes have no clue who is or can be the dragon and believe it or not: that actually entertains people!! ?

 

Seriously, the people I spoke to who have not read the books but are just enjoying the show as it is. They love the discussion around who may or may not be the dragon. So it really is just a fun way (fun!) to keep the tv audience entertained.

 

Yay for entertainment! ?

[The Purple Ajah]

Does anybody have a quote that proves that souls are "gender-locked" from Robert Jordan? I can't really find a quote from the books that definitively proves such a thing. The only RJ quote I have found on the matter seems to indicate that it might be true for the Dragon, but not all individuals.

[EmreY]

I'm confused.  Does the Dragon re-incarnate once or over and over again?