Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, Skipp said:

That is our new measurement   (10 Aes Sedai Circle + 1 Sa'angreal) = .5Nynaeves

So, depending on how much the Sa'angrel affects Nyneave might be a possible match for the circle that gentled Logain?  ?

[Mailman]

20 minutes ago, Skipp said:

On the topic of how powerful Nynaeve is.  A member of the Lezbi Nerdy discord mentioned that they just read a passage about Nynaeve's strength in tDR. After getting Mat back to the tower for healing Egwene and Nynaeve are brought to the room to witness the process.  Nynaeve feels she could only wield half of the amount of power that a circle of 10 Aes Sedai with 1 Sa'angreal could wield.

 

That is our new measurement   (10 Aes Sedai Circle + 1 Sa'angreal) = .5Nynaeves

 

Of course a circle of 10 Aes Sedai isn't as strong as 10 individual Aes Sedai.  Does anyone remember the conversion tables for circles lol?

Its not as simple as that as Siuan says in that scene the power needed to break the link to the dagger is almost the same as that which would kill him. So its not likely each of them would be providing there maximum amount.

 

Liandrin and one of the other Black sisters in Ebu Dar just about match Nynaeve when they are locating the Bowl of winds so no way is she equal to 5 sisters and and Sa'angreal

[zacz1987]

5 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

So, depending on how much the Sa'angrel affects Nyneave might be a possible match for the circle that gentled Logain?  ?

When trained, yes. At this stage Nynaeve should not have full access to her power.

[Requiem]

8 hours ago, Truthteller said:

b) his relationship with his mentors (in BK 1 Lan and Thom), and the show ignored both.  

 

This is something that has been really confusing about the discourse here. I just reread EOTW before Christmas.

 

Thom is definitely a mentor to both Rand and Mat and teaches them on the journey to Whitebridge to juggle and play the flute something they pick up very quickly.

 

Lan barely interacts with any of them. There is brief mention in the flight to Baerlon of him showing them how to use the weapons they have brought with them but other than that Lan is barely a character, him being a mentor for Rand and Teaching him swordsmanship is entirely in the beginning of TGH and canonically takes place over a handful of weeks.

 

The relationship between Rand and Lan in the series is pretty much perfect to how they were at the end of EOTW.

[Vartija]

1 hour ago, Requiem said:

Lan barely interacts with any of them. There is brief mention in the flight to Baerlon of him showing them how to use the weapons they have brought with them but other than that Lan is barely a character, him being a mentor for Rand and Teaching him swordsmanship is entirely in the beginning of TGH and canonically takes place over a handful of weeks.

Maybe it's the fact that book-Lan was so reserved that made those small moments we do have feel more impactful? At least in my head canon I always thought the Lan-Rand relationship started already in the first book. I felt like there was something brewing there that I would call "bonding" or mentoring as much as a character like book-Lan allowed himself to bond with anyone. Like you say there isn't much of it to begin with but I feel like many readers have the impression that it was impactful enough that it should have been in the show too. I think Rand's arc at least would have benefited from those small scenes.

 

Off the top of my head I recall scenes which developed that relationship:

- Lan spotting the heron mark in Rand's sword and being curious about it.

- Lan teaching the boys the weapons when Moiraine started to teach Egwene channeling.

- Their mutual aqcuaintance with the flame and the void.

- I recall a scene where Rand (in his head) tries to imitate Lan in how to look impressive with a sword. Showed that Rand saw Lan as someone impressive that he wanted to emulate.

- At the end of the book there's a subtle scene that kind of sets the stage for their future closer relationship. Lan & the other boys come from the Eye and meet Rand for the first time after he's channeled:

Quote

"Good to see you alive, sheepherder," Lan said gruffly. "I see you hung onto your sword. Maybe you'll learn to use it, now." Rand felt a sudden burst of affection for the Warder; Lan knew, but on the surface at least, nothing had changed. He thought that perhaps, for Lan, nothing had changed inside either.

Of course in the second book that relationship kicks into gear for real. Unfortunately now it looks like we won't get any of the sword training in Fal Dara or Lan training him to be a man if Rand heads out on his own. 

[MasterAblar]

8 hours ago, Skipp said:

On the topic of how powerful Nynaeve is.  A member of the Lezbi Nerdy discord mentioned that they just read a passage about Nynaeve's strength in tDR. After getting Mat back to the tower for healing Egwene and Nynaeve are brought to the room to witness the process.  Nynaeve feels she could only wield half of the amount of power that a circle of 10 Aes Sedai with 1 Sa'angreal could wield.

 

That is our new measurement   (10 Aes Sedai Circle + 1 Sa'angreal) = .5Nynaeves

 

Of course a circle of 10 Aes Sedai isn't as strong as 10 individual Aes Sedai.  Does anyone remember the conversion tables for circles lol?

Concerning Nyneave’s thoughts on her strength:

 

 

Quote

 

GREEBS

Ask what the deal is with Nynaeve being able to hold half the power as ten sisters with a sa'angreal but not being able to handle two pussy little Black Ajah by herself. 

ROBERT JORDAN

Some people have shielding talents.

QUESTION (LATER)

This is similar to Greebs' question, but from a slightly different angle: How much stronger do you have to be to forcibly shield someone else who is already holding the One Power? Is it different for men than for women, or for heterosexual shielding? If the answer is only a little stronger, then ask him how come Nynaeve couldn't shield Elayne in A Crown of Swords, Chapter 21 (Swovan Night)? Also, how much weaker can you be and still be able to hold a shield on someone, Berowin excepted?

ROBERT JORDAN

He did not use a "real scale" for One Power stuff. You just have to be stronger. Mostly handwaving. Consider the Kin. The woman who is very weak but has a real Talent for shielding.

FOOTNOTE—TEREZ

On the second answer: RJ indicated in Sweden in 1995 that he does use a 21-graded scale to keep track of channeler strength.

The first answer appears to be an Aes Sedai answer (avoiding the question). The real answer (at least, the answer that is consistent with the rest of the books) is that RJ probably used a bit of hyperbole in the scene where Mat was Healed in The Dragon Reborn (or rather, Nynaeve did, and she even caught herself...but RJ wrote it in such a way that left room for doubt whether she was amazed at her arrogance or at her potential strength).

The woman with the shielding talent, at least as far as we were shown in A Crown of Swords, was in the Kin (Berowin), and not one of those holding Nynaeve when they went after the Bowl (Falion, who got away, and Ispan, whom they captured). They were linked, and they waited until Elayne went upstairs with most of the Kin, then caught Nynaeve off-guard while she wasn't already holding the Power, and they (rightly) believed the remaining Kin wouldn't interfere. (Erica noted when I interrogated her about this report that these were all quick questions which he answered while signing books, so he was probably too distracted to explain properly—all indications are that he truly enjoyed explaining such things when he had the leisure to do so, and that he also would have gladly admitted to the hyperbole so long as he had time to address the rest.)

I think one of RJ's main points in that scene was that Mat, not being able to see the weaves, wouldn't have any idea what was going on, and therefore neither should we, really. RJ even called our attention to this phenomenon in the battle between Moghedien and Nynaeve at the end of The Shadow Rising:

 

 

 

Simply put, Nyneave was way off. She’s very strong but her strength would be tiny compared to the full power of Vora’s sangreal. Remember Egwene used it to duel Taim who was using the Sakarnen an even more powerful sangreal than Callandor. 

 

[Skipp]

2 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

Concerning Nyneave’s thoughts on her strength:

 

 

 

 

Simply put, Nyneave was way off. She’s very strong but her strength would be tiny compared to the full power of Vora’s sangreal. Remember Egwene used it to duel Taim who was using the Sakarnen an even more powerful sangreal than Callandor. 

 

Unreliable narrator strikes again!

[KakitaOCU]

2 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Simply put, Nyneave was way off. She’s very strong but her strength would be tiny compared to the full power of Vora’s sangreal. Remember Egwene used it to duel Taim who was using the Sakarnen an even more powerful sangreal than Callandor. 

 

I have no disagreement with the idea that Nynaeve was overstating, but I would like to point out Sa'angreal and angreal multiple based on the base power of the wielder. 

Glancing at the power charts.  There's a 72 rank layout for women, with the Highest being Lanfear levels and the weakest being Morgase.  Nynaeve's full potential is at 3.  Egwene is at 8.  Siuan is at 13. 

Sadly I don't think we have any hard numbers of what the power is at each step on scale, or what the exact multiplier is for any given sa'angrel, but it's safe to say that we can't use Egwene with Vora's to make judgement about Siuan with Vora's.
 

[Raal Gurniss]

Makes you wonder how any battle would ever end what with “combat healing” on both sides……

[KakitaOCU]

12 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Makes you wonder how any battle would ever end what with “combat healing” on both sides……

Would you prefer battlefield healing or first aid healing?  It's not a new thing, it's the reality of what standard Aes Sedai healing is.  

We see what that looks like.  Any situation in the book where Nynaeve is around the death count consists of people who fully died before Nynaeve was by them.  Death isn't exactly a big threat in WoT.

As for how it'd look on both sides.  We see that too.  No one cares about Trollocs or standard soldiers, in combat they're more interested in devastating the enemy vs healing their own, it's one of the biggest tactical gaps in WoT vs other series.

I think people are looking at what a few can do and applying it blanket to the world.  The light has two super healers.  Nynaeve and later Damer.

They can be only in one (two) places at a time.  The world is a big place.

It's the superman problem.  Yeah Clark can handle any situation and trivializes most encounters, but he can be in only one place at a time, so what happens everywhere else?

Edited January 21, 2022 by KakitaOCU

[Cauthonfan4]

8 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Makes you wonder how any battle would ever end what with “combat healing” on both sides……

With nynaeve being able to heal near death to combat ready in seconds? 

[RhienneAgain]

I wonder if a lot of the disagreement over the Nynaeve mass heal scene could be just down to channeling being a bit different in the TV show compared to the books. We're all discussing the scene based around in-book rules (some very complex and nuanced).

 

In the show, talents may not be a thing (for example, we've already seen Egwene heal neardeath). Perhaps show characters don't have particular talents in different areas - they're just more or less effective at all channeling based on their relative strength. Would certainly simplify a very complicated magic system.

[Deviations]

12 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

So, depending on how much the Sa'angrel affects Nyneave might be a possible match for the circle that gentled Logain?  ?

I hope that's supposed to be a wink emoji....  I don't think it's fair to extrapolate a scene from the book to justify a scene from the show when SO MUCH of the show is markedly different than the book.  Besides, Nynaeve thinking she could only hold half as much as a circle with an angreal, isn't the same as actually being able to do it.

[KakitaOCU]

Just now, Deviations said:

I hope that's supposed to be a wink emoji....  I don't think it's fair to extrapolate a scene from the book to justify a scene from the show when SO MUCH of the show is markedly different than the book.  Besides, Nynaeve thinking she could only hold half as much as a circle with an angreal, isn't the same as actually being able to do it.

 

I started that post saying I didn't have any issues with the idea of Nynaeve overstating.  I brought up the point to discuss that the power level scales and affects of angreal and sa'angreal aren't that cut and dry.

[Raal Gurniss]

12 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

With nynaeve being able to heal near death to combat ready in seconds? 

Covering the entire battlefield,  able to tell friend from foe…Despite being in a cave unable to see,  hear or even be aware of whats actually going on! All whilst being distracted by something else and not actually knowing what she is doing! 
 

 

What great writing in that show.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Raal Gurniss

[Raal Gurniss]

10 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

I wonder if a lot of the disagreement over the Nynaeve mass heal scene could be just down to channeling being a bit different in the TV show compared to the books. We're all discussing the scene based around in-book rules (some very complex and nuanced).

 

In the show, talents may not be a thing (for example, we've already seen Egwene heal neardeath). Perhaps show characters don't have particular talents in different areas - they're just more or less effective at all channeling based on their relative strength. Would certainly simplify a very complicated magic system.

It would make combat of any sort utterly pointless…

[KakitaOCU]

21 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Covering the entire battlefield,  able to tell friend from foe…Despite being in a cave unable to see,  hear or even be aware of whats actually going on! All whilst being distracted by something else and not actually knowing what she is doing! 

What suggested that as an option?  Nynaeve's weave was in a room full of friendlies save Logain who wasn't injured.  Instinctive channeling is something Nynaeve does in the book (The whole Balefire example?)  

[Katherine]

32 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

I wonder if a lot of the disagreement over the Nynaeve mass heal scene could be just down to channeling being a bit different in the TV show compared to the books. We're all discussing the scene based around in-book rules (some very complex and nuanced).

 

In the show, talents may not be a thing (for example, we've already seen Egwene heal neardeath). Perhaps show characters don't have particular talents in different areas - they're just more or less effective at all channeling based on their relative strength. Would certainly simplify a very complicated magic system.

 

Agreed. I think even naysayers of the show have to keep conversations in the context of the show. You are totally right that so far we have only talked about power levels and not talents. Will be interesting to see if that is something that is discussed. If I remember correctly, Egwene's affinity for "earth" made her a valuable commodity to the Seanchan. 

[ArrylT]

On 1/20/2022 at 10:48 AM, Skipp said:

All depends on what you mean by badass,

 

Thom killing the darkfriend, 

 

Yeah that was one of the most badass scenes, without it appearing to be a badass scene, from not just Ep3 but the whole season.    I truly feel that a lot of people do not really understand how difficult that throw would be to make in real life.

 

Poorly lit, Dana is not standing at a straight angle, the braid is really thick and blocks part of the view of the neck & the distance was likely 20+ feet (count the number of full length strides Thom takes).  And the throw came in perfectly level, not at an angle.  A little higher the braid likely deflects it slightly, a little to the right it could have bypassed Dana and hit Mat, a little to the left it might have hit Rand.  If it comes in at the wrong angle of rotation  it might not even enter the throat but simply bounce off.

 

Based off of the distance the knife had to have done at least 2 full rotations, if not 3.

 

https://www.knifethrowing.info/how-to-throw-a-knife.html

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by ArrylT

[Wassup]

On 1/20/2022 at 3:55 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

 

This is why Nynaeve really should have suffered her block in episode 8, because Nynaeve's block (to me) was always about her being angry, not emotional. In the show they seemed to be going that way too, as she screams in anger in episode 4 and has a pissed off look in ep 7 vs Machin Shin. Having a block in episode 8 would have called back to episode 1 where she wasn't able to channel to save the old man, as she was scared - not angry. Her walking out and being able to open herself to be linked, and then just standing there to be used as a conduit, meant there was no actual arc to her season. Imagine a situation where they don't actually change anything (not my first choice!) but Amalisa is shouting at Nynaeve to open herself and she can't, and she watches in horror as the Trollocs approach. Maybe as a result of Amalisa being distracted trying to get her to open up, someone dies/the Trollocs break through. *Something* that she feels responsible for because she couldn't control her channeling. 

 

It's really disappointing but I am still optimistic that what they were doing in the first 6 episodes was solid enough that we will get a good S2. I know there are many that dislike the show as a whole though, this is just my POV - episode 8 was awful but I really enjoyed everything up to that. I really think episode 8 suffered from all of the COVID nonsense and Mat not being there, and unfortunately they were not good enough as writers to adjust their initial plans to still make a great finale. At least that's what I think happened.

It will be interesting to see how/if Nynaeve’s block is handled. I think they hinted at it when she said she could no longer “listen to the wind”. I do not like that because she could always do that in the books. It was foreshadowing for major events. It seems that has been given to Egwene in the show. 
 

The linking is also a bit off, as you pointed out. In TLoC, Nyneave joins a circle for the first time in Salidar. She is mad enough to channel, but has difficulty because she could not surrender. The power had to be taken from her by Anaiya Sedai. It seemed to be too freely given over to Amalie’s. 

[Cauthonfan4]

4 hours ago, RhienneAgain said:

Would certainly simplify a very complicated magic system

and make it a crutch to do what the writers need to do.

4 hours ago, Katherine said:

Agreed. I think even naysayers of the show have to keep conversations in the context of the show.

Then rhey shouldn't have named it Wheel of Time. They should have written there own new show. You can't complain about getting comparisons when you literally use the name. 

 

We were told we were getting a Wheel of time TV series. We were lied too.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Mailman]

6 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

It's the superman problem.  Yeah Clark can handle any situation and trivializes most encounters, but he can be in only one place at a time, so what happens everywhere else?

Not such a problem for superman since he can travel at very close to the speed of light or at it, his coverage is immense he can stop a bad guy in Australia and save a woman in England and save a drowning man in China within the same second.

 

It's what makes the snydercut truly terrible. The Flash breaks the movie in every way possible way.

[Spiritweaver1]

6 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

It would make combat of any sort utterly pointless…

This simply isn't true.  IRL Norse mythology warrior's who died valiant deaths went to Valhalla.  A fine place where they could drink and wench all night.  Then they would go out and fight.  Those killed and wounded would be resurrected at quitting time and start the process over again.  From another angle, that's what RJ did with the DO's incessant resurrecting of killed Forsaken.  I really hated that in the books my first time through.  Then I realized that the Hero's of the Horn were the Creator's version.  So alls fair in love and war.   Why shouldn't ordinary folk have the same opportunities for endless rounds of battle as the great and mighty.  I am pretty sure we will see Matt brought back from the dead in the Series.  

[Spiritweaver1]

6 hours ago, Katherine said:

 

Agreed. I think even naysayers of the show have to keep conversations in the context of the show. You are totally right that so far we have only talked about power levels and not talents. Will be interesting to see if that is something that is discussed. If I remember correctly, Egwene's affinity for "earth" made her a valuable commodity to the Seanchan. 

Don't forget her turning the harbor chain to cuendillar that was awesome.  However her real strengths were her iron will, courage and intelligence.  Of course in RJ's plot foolishness she didn't keep up her contacts with the Wise Ones with Rand and Elayne.  It is believable but not for Egw the wonder accepted.  You don't do what she does without using every arrow in the quiver as they used to say. 

[Raal Gurniss]

37 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

This simply isn't true.  IRL Norse mythology warrior's who died valiant deaths went to Valhalla.  A fine place where they could drink and wench all night.  Then they would go out and fight.  Those killed and wounded would be resurrected at quitting time and start the process over again.  From another angle, that's what RJ did with the DO's incessant resurrecting of killed Forsaken.  I really hated that in the books my first time through.  Then I realized that the Hero's of the Horn were the Creator's version.  So alls fair in love and war.   Why shouldn't ordinary folk have the same opportunities for endless rounds of battle as the great and mighty.  I am pretty sure we will see Matt brought back from the dead in the Series.  

And if both sides were constantly healing and resurrecting instantly over an area of effect what would be the point in them fighting? It would just be continuous….The whole scene was poorly thought out, nothing more nothing less! 
 

I get people like the show and feel the need to defend it, but why defend scenes that are obviously at the very least ill judged? Just about every great film or series contains flawed scenes, I don’t get why some people can’t admit that is what they are!