Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Raal Gurniss]

26 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

How many pages do Egwene and Nynaeve spend training in the White Tower in the books?

 

Also, healing the after-effects of the taint and countering balefire? 

 

Book Egwene and Nynaeve are dramatically creative and OP.  You're just annoyed that they're OP in a different way in the TV series.

How often did they train in the Tower in the show?

 

I’m annoyed by the terrible version they made! Why not just give them red capes, super strength, super speed and  abilities to fly shoot lasers from their eyes, xray vision, super hearing, time travel etc? 
 

Question that should be asked is why you aren’t irritated….

 

 

[Katherine]

On 1/21/2022 at 3:55 PM, Cauthonfan4 said:

and make it a crutch to do what the writers need to do.

Then rhey shouldn't have named it Wheel of Time. They should have written there own new show. You can't complain about getting comparisons when you literally use the name. 

 

We were told we were getting a Wheel of time TV series. We were lied too.

 

I promise I get what you are saying. 

 

I do not like this series because exactly this.  I am simply saying that there are two different critiques of the show: 

1. THe show is unrecognizable as Wheel Of Time. 

2. The show in-and-of-itself suffers from poor writing/inconsistency/poor time management etc. 

 

When presenting our disappointments with the show, I think it is important to seperate those two. 

 

For example, I Could have lived with issue 1 if there wasn't an issue 2. For some, issue 1 is a dealbreaker. 

[ilovezam]

54 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

How many pages do Egwene and Nynaeve spend training in the White Tower in the books?

 

Also, healing the after-effects of the taint and countering balefire? 

 

Book Egwene and Nynaeve are dramatically creative and OP.  You're just annoyed that they're OP in a different way in the TV series.

I do agree that the two of them do get some random OP feats throughout the series.

 

But the key difference here is throughout the series. We get to see them grow up from hapless villagers to increasingly powerful channelers, and even if the rate of growth is accelerated, we don't see them being able to do insanely OP things by Tarwin's Gap. Nynaeve positively couldn't channel at will until Book 7, and she finally overcomes that obstacle via a poignant moment of character growth.

 

 

[EmreY]

39 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Question that should be asked is why you aren’t irritated….

 

I have said before, and will say again, that I do not love the TV series' characterisation or development.

 

However, it is just an irritant to me, not something worse.  And these characters weren't meek dormice in the books that have suddenly been turned into Superwomen on screen. 

[Raal Gurniss]

3 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

I have said before, and will say again, that I do not love the TV series' characterisation or development.

 

However, it is just an irritant to me, not something worse.  And these characters weren't meek dormice in the books that have suddenly been turned into Superwomen on screen. 

They have been turned into masters of everything they attempt the first time…Sounds like they are Super Super Superwomen+ on screen.
 

 

[fra85uk]

No doubt book-Nyn is strong and depicted very strong indeed but what she has done in the show out-perform some of the stuff she does AFTER training.

Still goes for Eg who starts from not being able to cast a fireball to heal a near-death (that appears to be more death than near) 

[Skipp]

It is an interesting line of thought that wasn't fully address in the show/books.  At what point is a person "dead enough" that healing won't work?  If their heart stops? Brain activity stops?  Could you heal someone only for them to be brain dead?

[EmreY]

I understand that you are not willing to devote any more time to this, and I respect that, but you are assuming that everyone is approaching both books and the TV series in the same way you are.  I also think part of the difference of opinion we have here is that you are expecting a reasonably faithful exposition of the books, with things happening in roughly the same order.  I'm not so inclined.

 

You are also critiquing the first series on its own merits.  That's fair, since it's all that we've got to on at the moment.  But if I'd done the same with Book 1, I'd have written it off as derivative, pretentious and ill-composed. 

 

On the one hand you expect faithfulness to (IMO) a sub-par book, on the other hand what you write is coloured by the knowledge of all fourteen.  However, when others say WAFO for the series, you say this is a cover.  No, it is not a cover.  I think the TV series is mediocre-to-good, which is an accurate reflection of how I view the first book.  I'm not in the least bit bothered by changes, but I'm bothered by unnecessary changes such as the love triangle.

 

Getting back to Egwene and Nynaeve, I'm not bothered by their displays of competency.  If in the second series, it proves just one step to making them truly superhuman, with Nynaeve healing entire countries while Egwene drives the Seanchan into the sea, I will be. 

[Katherine]

1 hour ago, EmreY said:

 

How many pages do Egwene and Nynaeve spend training in the White Tower in the books?

 

 

You are correct, they weren't at the White Tower for very long, but Egwene did spend considerable time training with the Wise Ones. 

 

Nynaeve did not have enough time there, but I also remember that being to her detriment. She was good at healing, but not much else. 

[Raal Gurniss]

5 minutes ago, EmreY said:

I understand that you are not willing to devote any more time to this, and I respect that, but you are assuming that everyone is approaching both books and the TV series in the same way you are.  I also think part of the difference of opinion we have here is that you are expecting a reasonably faithful exposition of the books, with things happening in roughly the same order.  I'm not so inclined.

 

You are also critiquing the first series on its own merits.  That's fair, since it's all that we've got to on at the moment.  But if I'd done the same with Book 1, I'd have written it off as derivative, pretentious and ill-composed. 

 

On the one hand you expect faithfulness to (IMO) a sub-par book, on the other hand what you write is coloured by the knowledge of all fourteen.  However, when others say WAFO for the series, you say this is a cover.  No, it is not a cover.  I think the TV series is mediocre-to-good, which is an accurate reflection of how I view the first book.  I'm not in the least bit bothered by changes, but I'm bothered by unnecessary changes such as the love triangle.

 

Getting back to Egwene and Nynaeve, I'm not bothered by their displays of competency.  If in the second series, it proves just one step to making them truly superhuman, with Nynaeve healing entire countries while Egwene drives the Seanchan into the sea, I will be. 

Well…Either they will become less powerful, stay the same over powered as they are now or become even more powerful….

 

Now which do you see happening going forward?

[EmreY]

3 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Well…Either they will become less powerful, stay the same over powered as they are now or become even more powerful….

 

Now which do you see happening going forward?

 

This is another point where you and I go off in different directions.  You have decided what will likely happen and you have also decided your reaction to it.  I don't know what will happen, and will decide once I see it.

[EmreY]

6 minutes ago, Katherine said:

You are correct, they weren't at the White Tower for very long, but Egwene did spend considerable time training with the Wise Ones. 

 

I thought it was a few days, and then correspondence learning as needed?  (I might well be wrong.)

 

...

 

At this point in time, isn't all we've seen is Nynaeve mass-heal (and maybe heal herself! (I think it was not Egwene)), Egwene be reasonably competent at battle, and both act as batteries.  I personally do not think this is overblown.

[KakitaOCU]

8 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Well…Either they will become less powerful, stay the same over powered as they are now or become even more powerful….

Yep, I remember after Nynaeve healed Stilling how she just kept skyrocketing up in power...

Oh wait, she became completely unimportant in terms of her channeling strength, taking part in various activities in the same way any other sister would and then being a battery for Rand to do cool things twice.  

Her impact and mark of the later half of the series has nothing to do with channeling strength and everything to do with being a good character.  

So no, she doesn't have to become more powerful nor does her having power even impact her being a good or bad character.

[Katherine]

9 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Well…Either they will become less powerful, stay the same over powered as they are now or become even more powerful….

 

Now which do you see happening going forward?

 

SOmeone has already mentioned this and I think it is smart.... 

 

If the writers are smart, they will use Nyn's near death experience as the source of her block. Which, IMO would be an improvement over "anger". 

[Katherine]

4 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

I thought it was a few days, and then correspondence learning as needed?  (I might well be wrong.)

 

...

 

At this point in time, isn't all we've seen is Nynaeve mass-heal (and maybe heal herself! (I think it was not Egwene)), Egwene be reasonably competent at battle, and both act as batteries.  I personally do not think this is overblown.

I remember Egwene being with the wise ones for months. To the point where several of the wise women were trying to get her to marry one of the Aiel and stay with them. 

 

 

[Raal Gurniss]

17 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

This is another point where you and I go off in different directions.  You have decided what will likely happen and you have also decided your reaction to it.  I don't know what will happen, and will decide once I see it.

Erm….I gave three options less, same or more….And you claim I have made my mind up? Well yes…My mind has been made up to it being one of those three options…..Are you saying it will be something completely different to one of those three? But you don’t know what? 
 

I don’t know which but I am 99% certain it will be one or more of those three! Less, same or more……I mean I don’t know what other option there is…Can you think of any?

[Gothic Flame]

12 minutes ago, Katherine said:

I remember Egwene being with the wise ones for months. To the point where several of the wise women were trying to get her to marry one of the Aiel and stay with them. 

 

 

Yup. She even developed the Aiel sense of honor.

[KakitaOCU]

21 minutes ago, Katherine said:

I remember Egwene being with the wise ones for months. To the point where several of the wise women were trying to get her to marry one of the Aiel and stay with them. 

 

She definitely was.  Now, there is a question of if they taught her channeling vs just custom, culture and the dream.

There is nothing to say that she didn't also study the power, and I have no argument with it.  I bring it up only because fair is fair and some like to insist that if the show doesn't explicitly state something it didn't happen.  

[Katherine]

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 Now, there is a question of if they taught her channeling vs just custom, culture and the dream.

 

Is there though?

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, Katherine said:

Is there though?

For me?  Absolutely not.  But there's also no question of if the Show uses Saidin and Saidar and that gets pushed ad nauseum.  

As said, was more just broaching the point that if we are going to allow assumed evidence it has to go both ways.  Nothing I've seen from you specifically, but it does keep coming up.

[ashi]

1 hour ago, EmreY said:

I thought it was a few days, and then correspondence learning as needed?  (I might well be wrong.)

 

Day 89, Amadaine 13, Jun 20 - Arriving at Tar Valon (TGH 18)
Day 184, Choren 23, Sep 23 - Leaving Tar Valon with Liandrin (TGH 39)

Day 381, Aine 24, Apr 08 - Arriving at Tar Valon (TDR 10-11)
Day 384, Aine 27, Apr 11 - Leaving Tar Valon for Tear (TDR 37)
 

So 96 days + 4 days.

 

Source: https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/998_NE, https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/999_NE

Edited January 24, 2022 by ashi

[fra85uk]

Nyn and Eg are surely incredibly talented and strong characters in the books, it's undeniable...i just feel that they are a "little bit" exaggerated in the show, particularly with the healing stuff.  

 

[MasterAblar]

Wait. Nyneave did stuff which was a bit silly yes, but what in the world did Egwene do channelling wise? She threw the smallest bit of fire ever at Valda and then was used as a battery by Amalisa. Sure she shouldn't be able to link at this point really, but that's pretty minor to be honest.

[Wassup]

1 hour ago, ashi said:

 

Day 89, Amadaine 13, Jun 20 - Arriving at Tar Valon (TGH 18)
Day 184, Choren 23, Sep 23 - Leaving Tar Valon with Liandrin (TGH 39)

Day 381, Aine 24, Apr 08 - Arriving at Tar Valon (TDR 10-11)
Day 384, Aine 27, Apr 11 - Leaving Tar Valon for Tear (TDR 37)
 

So 96 days + 4 days.

 

Source: https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/998_NE, https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/999_NE

I think they received training in the journey from Fal Dara to TV on a daily basis from Aes Sedai. 
 

Eg also spent weeks with the Seanchan before she was rescued. That would be a different training. 
 

I think we can expect her to have received some training from the Wise Ones because they were training Avienda and I am sure she would have asked about some of it. She wanted to learn everything. 
 

Does time at the Little Tower count for Nyn?

[Skipp]

23 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Nyn and Eg are surely incredibly talented and strong characters in the books, it's undeniable...i just feel that they are a "little bit" exaggerated in the show, particularly with the healing stuff.  

 

You are not wrong at all.  The feats that the channelers have done in the show seems to exceed what could be done in the books.  Even Moiraine's defense in the TR seems more than she could do in the books.  this is certainly the showrunners using the visual medium for spectacle. 

 

We can only see if this becomes an issue going forward