Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[TheMountain]

8 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

 

It reminds me of GoT season one. Lots of rose colored glasses for that season from fans lol.

 

Also the problem is they need to spend bigger amounts on CGI right off the bat. GoT avoided large scale battles and the white walker army through two whole seasons. And they didn't have magic then or even really any dragon setpieces.

 

Yeah, that's fair, and that's a point I've made myself as well. I will say though that GoT achieves the "lived-in" feel much better than WoT, even in the small-scale scenes. The other thing is that the writing in WoT can be a bit cringey/cheesy at times, in ways that GoT never was... which is not really a budget issue.

[CaddySedai]

Just now, TheMountain said:

 

Yeah, that's fair, and that's a point I've made myself as well. I will say though that GoT achieves the "lived-in" feel much better than WoT, even in the small-scale scenes. The other thing is that the writing in WoT can be a bit cringey/cheesy at times, in ways that GoT never was... which is not really a budget issue.

 

Fair point. I think that will improve over time. Even across the first couple episodes there has been improvements. 

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

The other thing is that the writing in WoT can be a bit cringey/cheesy at times, in ways that GoT never was.

This is true. But let’s not forget the task of the WoT writers is more difficult. They have a lot more exposition they have to build in. WoT’s mythology is orders of magnitude more complicated than GoT’s. 
 

And WoT’s early plot doesn’t lend itself to the clever bickering and verbal dueling that was GoT’s strength. 

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

ghealdean king running in battle among a bunch of ill-clothed cgi-less trollocs, etc.)

 

 

What's that scene? I thought they were human soldiers

[Scarloc99]

19 hours ago, Windigo said:

To me they have eliminated some of that, and the characters are more like what they are later on,

This, Over the course of the books Robert Jordan changed the characters, this change occurred across the course of 11 books, the TV series doesn’t have this amount of time to tell this story of development so has to start further down that road, alternatively Rafe could always take a leaf from GOT and do a personality switch as quickly as Dany has during season 8. 
 

people who are insisting Rafe follow the pace and story of the books exactly, that is never going to happen. On audible the books are 462 hours long, there is no way that could be turned into a tv series, and yes I know large sections of description would be removed, but alternatively battles

that take just a couple of pages would turn into your long set piece scenes. An act described over a paragraph might be a 45 min scene. Peter Jackson showed this, the battle of helms deep takes about 5-10 mins to read, it takes up an hour of movie time. 
 

 

[Scarloc99]

34 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

 

Yeah, that's fair, and that's a point I've made myself as well. I will say though that GoT achieves the "lived-in" feel much better than WoT, even in the small-scale scenes. The other thing is that the writing in WoT can be a bit cringey/cheesy at times, in ways that GoT never was... which is not really a budget issue.

Don’t forget GOT at no point had to deal with a global pandemic, Rafe has stated that the VFX was impacted and didn’t meet expectations because they couldn’t review it properly due to Covid. I wonder what other impacts the pandemic had on the finished article. I am in agreement about the issues with production and script but I am going to wait for season 2 to determine if that is Rafe or just dealing with and getting used to the pandemic. 

[JaimAybara]

30 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

And WoT’s early plot doesn’t lend itself to the clever bickering and verbal dueling that was GoT’s strength. 

I have a good feeling about the introduction of Daes Dae’mar. I think that’s when similar level dialogue sparring will be woven into the show. Political intrigue in Cairhien, Caemlyn, Tear, and Tar Valon. More secondary cast introductions and more cultural differences. They’re opening up the world as much as possible in season one and then they will let it breathe a little bit. 
 

*It won’t all be dialogue, but there will be much more.

Edited November 28, 2021 by JaimAybara

[fra85uk]

24 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

What's that scene? I thought they were human soldiers

Well, I was pointing to the fact that Logain rescue army behaved more or less like trollocs.

[Scarloc99]

29 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This is true. But let’s not forget the task of the WoT writers is more difficult. They have a lot more exposition they have to build in. WoT’s mythology is orders of magnitude more complicated than GoT’s. 
 

And WoT’s early plot doesn’t lend itself to the clever bickering and verbal dueling that was GoT’s strength. 

Books one and 2 of wheel of time are, let’s be honest, a very generic fantasy story. Robert Jordan was open in stating that EOTW lifts very much from the fellowship with scenes that could have been lifted, especially from the escape to Rivendell. Book 2 is a very generic fantasy story about our hero’s hunting a mcguffin that drags them across the world. 
 

For the casual fan Rafe has to try and turn those starting story points into the Wheel

of Time we think of later on in the books or risk losing the casual viewer. 

[CaddySedai]

I'd probably behave like a trolloc if there were people seeking ground missiles coming at me.

 

Actually check that. I would behave like this.

 

[JaimAybara]

Just now, Sir_Charrid said:

Books one and 2 of wheel of time are, let’s be honest, a very generic fantasy story. Robert Jordan was open in stating that EOTW lifts very much from the fellowship with scenes that could have been lifted, especially from the escape to Rivendell. Book 2 is a very generic fantasy story about our hero’s hunting a mcguffin that drags them across the world. 
 

For the casual fan Rafe has to try and turn those starting story points into the Wheel

of Time we think of later on in the books or risk losing the casual viewer. 

I was fully hooked in book two. Yes, it’s a Mcguffin but Mcguffins can be great, like the Maltese Falcon, the suitcase in Pulp Fiction, or any item in Indiana Jones.

[Siberian Rat]

After the first watch, I had to really take in the density and take some time to unpack everything before I watched it again. The 2nd watch I tried to look for themes and really appreciate what all the additional scenes that they included bring to the table. Then the third watch I was mostly looking for book reader Easter Eggs and found a pretty good amount of them. They threw a lot of them in for our BookBros, just showing a lot of respect for all us longtime fans.

Love what they have done with our series so far! Loving it!

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Also, for the “where’s the money gone” folks: remember, the biggest set pieces are still to come. The Ways, the Eye (?), Tarwin’s Gap, the Blight. 
 

Those will have gotten more priority and more money invested in them. 

 

I do believe that Brandon Sanderson said with almost no hesitation that episode 7 (or was it 6?) was his favorite. 

 

For what it's worth - I was much more critical before episode 4 - I think things are going to get a lot better in the second half of this season and next season. 

 

The actors are doing a great job. And though they're are major changes - I think they're basically all related to them trying to really make the "Who is the Dragon" question compelling ... If they weren't doing that - then they're actually doing a lot to make it as faithful an adaptation as we can expect with how much simply needs to be changed because of the size of the books. 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, JaimAybara said:

I was fully hooked in book two. Yes, it’s a Mcguffin but Mcguffins can be great, like the Maltese Falcon, the suitcase in Pulp Fiction, or any item in Indiana Jones.

Not saying it’s a bad thing but for a casual viewer who usually does not like fantasy, the kind of Viewers Amazon needs to be worth commissioning the series, Rafe needs to show what makes WOT different to generic fantasy asap. With GOT it was the grittiness and realism at the start. We all know WOT hits it’s unique stride from book 3 

[Agitel]

Something wonky just happened to the RT tomatometer. Says 86% but I counted up the reviews and should still be 72%. Will probably see this fixed soon. Or Amazon made a sizable donation to RT.

[Kudzu]

2 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

I was fully hooked in book two. Yes, it’s a Mcguffin but Mcguffins can be great, like the Maltese Falcon, the suitcase in Pulp Fiction, or any item in Indiana Jones.

 

I didn't know what a McGuffin was, so I looked it up. What's the McGuffin in TGH? I assume the horn? Or the dagger? Neither fit the definition I read, as both have a use in the plot in and of themselves, rather than just as motivation.

[JaimAybara]

5 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

 

I didn't know what a McGuffin was, so I looked it up. What's the McGuffin in TGH? I assume the horn? Or the dagger? Neither fit the definition I read, as both have a use in the plot in and of themselves, rather than just as motivation.

They usually are insignificant to the plot but don’t always have to be. They are objects that drive the plot forward. Insignificant being the Maltese Falcon and the Suitcase in pulp fiction. Flipping the script would be items in Indians Jones, which are believed to just be objects of value but then actually have significant powers too. They still serve the same purpose in moving the story forward though because without them what would the story be? The horn and the dagger I would argue both qualify. Some will disagree and say a Mcguffin is strictly an insignificant item that moves it forward though. 
 

Merriam Webster suggests that it doesn’t have to be insignificant. 
 

Oxford dictionary says it is only insignificant. 
 

Other definitions just say it’s an impetus for the plot. 
 

so yes/ and no. I consider them Mcguffins. Hitchcock purists would likely disagree. And so it goes. 

[CaddySedai]

35 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

 

I didn't know what a McGuffin was, so I looked it up. What's the McGuffin in TGH? I assume the horn?

 

Yeah its the horn. It all depends on what one defines a macguffin as. If we go with Hitchcock - it is something the characters care deeply for and drives the plot. Yet the audience cares nothing for.  IE the Briefcase in Pulp Fiction. Others like George Lucas say the audience should be just as vested in it. Not unlike the One Ring. 

 

In either case the macguffin is a thing that ultimately drives the motivation of the characters and thus the plot forward. So if we adopt Lucas’ view it is not insignificant to the audience as well you find:

 

So in TGH its the Horn. In EotW you would say the Eye itself is a macguffin that yields three more macguffins within lol. 

 

Here is an article I like about macguffins in fantasy. 

 

http://helenlowe.info/blog/2018/07/23/having-fun-with-epic-fantasy-tropes-8-were-all-going-on-a-macguffin-hunt/

[Kudzu]

Thanks for the clarification(s).

[Beidomon]

4 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Also, for the “where’s the money gone” folks: remember, the biggest set pieces are still to come. The Ways, the Eye (?), Tarwin’s Gap, the Blight. 
 

Those will have gotten more priority and more money invested in them. 

How was Shadar Logoth not considered a major set piece?

 

4 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Books one and 2 of wheel of time are, let’s be honest, a very generic fantasy story. Robert Jordan was open in stating that EOTW lifts very much from the fellowship with scenes that could have been lifted, especially from the escape to Rivendell. Book 2 is a very generic fantasy story about our hero’s hunting a mcguffin that drags them across the world. 
 

For the casual fan Rafe has to try and turn those starting story points into the Wheel

of Time we think of later on in the books or risk losing the casual viewer. 

Well, if you ignore the Prequel and the Lore that makes WOT unique, then I would totally agree EOTW is pretty generic fantasy. And just coincidentally, WOTTV has thus far ignored the Prequel and significantly changed / watered down the Lore. So yeah, there you go. 

 

4 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Don’t forget GOT at no point had to deal with a global pandemic, Rafe has stated that the VFX was impacted and didn’t meet expectations because they couldn’t review it properly due to Covid. I wonder what other impacts the pandemic had on the finished article. I am in agreement about the issues with production and script but I am going to wait for season 2 to determine if that is Rafe or just dealing with and getting used to the pandemic. 

I don’t think we can blame the problems on Covid. The problems really aren’t the CGI - it isn’t great but it’s perfectly adequate. And I’m not saying the show is terrible btw - just that the problems are due to writing and cinematography - not Covid. 

 

4 hours ago, TheMountain said:

 

Yeah, that's fair, and that's a point I've made myself as well. I will say though that GoT achieves the "lived-in" feel much better than WoT, even in the small-scale scenes. The other thing is that the writing in WoT can be a bit cringey/cheesy at times, in ways that GoT never was... which is not really a budget issue.

Correct. GOT always looked more real and lived-in than this, even Season 1. And the dialogue was generally great. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by CaddySedai
Pulled your four posts together. No other edits. Order :)

[Arie]

8 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

How was Shadar Logoth not considered a major set piece?

I do believe that it is, and they spend a fair amount of season 1's budget on the city itself. (if I remember Rafe's instagram commentary correctly.)

[Agitel]

Anyone else notice that the Prime Video Explore page didn't update its timeline or map this week?

[TheMountain]

10 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Well, if you ignore the Prequel and the Lore that makes WOT unique, then I would totally agree EOTW is pretty generic fantasy. And just coincidentally, WOTTV has thus far ignored the Prequel and significantly changed / watered down the Lore. So yeah, there you go. 

Yeah, that's another reason why I think that the absence of the Prologue and all the changes to the lore so far were a huge mistake. You strip all these things away and eventually you are left with a pretty generic fantasy.

[themann1086]

6 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Anyone else notice that the Prime Video Explore page didn't update its timeline or map this week?

When they updated before Episode 4 aired they (apparently) spoiled the events of E4. They're probably trying to avoid that kind of error again

[CaddySedai]

38 minutes ago, Arie said:

I do believe that it is, and they spend a fair amount of season 1's budget on the city itself. (if I remember Rafe's instagram commentary correctly.)

And now the CGI maps of it are complete and you can show it again and again as needed without having to budget for the creation. 

 

Just for the re-rendering.