Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Sabio]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

She may also just be wrong. 

She might be wrong, but you would also expect that Red should know what she's talking about.  Dealing with men who can channel is sort of her whole purpose.

[Gothic Flame]

27 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

If memory serves, you can tie off a shield in the books, but that leaves it vulnerable? Isn't that how Rand managed to break out, finding those "knots"? 

 

To follow that logically, if they are not tying off the shield and focussing on it, it would be tiring. However I don't necessarily understand why breaking out would be "easier", as surely you are losing energy by pushing against it. 

Hmf...from the book;

Soft, Lews Therin said, panting. Because they are there. Sustaining the buffer. Hard when they knot. Nothing to be done when then are soft, but I can unravel the web if they knot it.

---------

Rand had seven knots...four were hard knots that he unraveled.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Sabio said:

Well it's super hard to hold a shield if for some odd reason you only have three people holding it.  In the book it would of always of been thirteen.  With just three people it would be super hard to hold and of course Logain is eventually going to break it.  This just falls in the they made the Aes Sedai look pretty incomptent issue I have.

Where does the 13 come from? It would not always have been 13. 

[Sabio]

I should of said 13 when going out after someone like Taim or Logain, the people causing troubles (declaring themselves the dragon and such), people you need to send Aes Sedai to deal with.  If finding someone like Owen you wouldn't expect thirteen sisters coming into town.  But I just don't see any way they would go after people like Taim or Logain with such a small group or try to shield him with only 3 people.

 

The fact he broke free like twice to be just made the Aes Sedai look like they had no idea what they were doing.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Sabio

[Elder_Haman]

16 minutes ago, Sabio said:

I should of said 13 when going out after someone like Taim or Logain, the people causing troubles (declaring themselves the dragon and such), people you need to send Aes Sedai to deal with.  If finding someone like Owen you wouldn't expect thirteen sisters coming into town.  But I just don't see any way they would go after people like Taim or Logain with such a small group or try to shield him with only 3 people.

 

The fact he broke free like twice to be just made the Aes Sedai look like they had no idea what they were doing.

I think it's meant to convey the idea that they were unprepared for Logain's strength. That most of the male channelers they deal with are like Owyn, or the poor dude at the beginning: weak and easily subdued. Logain is something they were not prepared for.

[Agitel]

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think it's meant to convey the idea that they were unprepared for Logain's strength. That most of the male channelers they deal with are like Owyn, or the poor dude at the beginning: weak and easily subdued. Logain is something they were not prepared for.

 

Agreed.

 

Though this post brings up feels for me. I've been a big apologist for the show as I think much of the negativity is over the top or frames things wrong, or at least deserves a counterpoint. But that's not to say I don't think the show could be better. Things like this make me wish we could get all the nuance and lore of the books on the screen. A much larger, well funded project that can take the time to do that, whether in ten episodes or twenty. I hear the disappointment in those who haven't gotten that, and I have disappointment too. I'm just trying to be realistic and positive about the constraints: budget, time, executives, actors, needing to make a product to sell to keep the ball rolling... all on top of needing to change the medium.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Agitel

[Skipp]

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think it's meant to convey the idea that they were unprepared for Logain's strength. That most of the male channelers they deal with are like Owyn, or the poor dude at the beginning: weak and easily subdued. Logain is something they were not prepared for.

That was how I took it as well, Alanna made quite a show about how his strength made an impact on her.

 

But it is certainly not something they spelled out.

 

 

[Skipp]

9 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

 

 

New post from BS

Thanks for posting this, it gives a very interesting insight as to the adaptation process.  I appreciate the changes BS was able to influence but also believe that Nynaeve trying to stab Lan and him disarming her is a fantastic scene.

[Sabio]

Here is a man that can channel, has an army, is skilled enough to be using the power in battle, and calling himself the Dragon.  The Red's especially should have been totally prepared.  By being so unprepared like allowing Loagin's "so called army" to get so close and having so much trouble keeping him shielded, it made the Aes Sedai seem like they had no idea what they were doing,

 

Now I understand by having them unprepared was to build drama, show of Nyn's power etc..  or budget reasons having thirteen people just sitting there as extras isn't feasible.  People who haven't read the books won't know the difference and people like me who have read the books will read too much into things.  My main issue with this is more of it just didn't make the Aes Sedai come off looking very good or competent.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Sabio

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Sabio said:

it made the Aes Sedai seem like they had no idea what they were doing,

Could that be purposeful? Remember, the Aes Sedai aren't what they used to be. Tower membership is at an all-time low. There is a lot of bickering and ajah infighting (though at this point, kept mostly under the rug). So, it seems on brand that the operation to get Logain came off a little sloppy. Add in a little BA motivation and I think that your observation is correct - and also a conscious choice in how the Tower is being depicted.

[Badmaw]

On 12/4/2021 at 1:51 PM, Ralph said:

But in the books they are also described as gleaming white and taking great care over their appearance

I get that and agree that when they aren’t out in the field that’s the appropriate way to portray them.  But, when they’re out in the country, traveling mile upon mile, fighting battles, they would/could not remain gleaming white.  It’s unrealistic and frankly silly.

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Could that be purposeful?

Going from dumbing things down to a more subtle approach?

[Badmaw]

Another point.  In the show Mat, frankly, is portrayed as a degenerate gambler and thief.  It’s been awhile but did the books portray him this way?  I recall Mat was a prankster who was irritating, in a humorous way, not a criminal with a gambling addiction.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Badmaw

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Badmaw said:

Another point.  In the show Mat, frankly, is portrayed as a degenerate gambler and thief.  It’s been awhile but did the books portray him this way?  I recall Mat was a prankster who was irritating, in a humorous way, not a criminal with a gambling addiction.

In the books, Mat doesn't get much portrayal at all until book 3. To the extent we know things about him, we know that he's a troublemaker who often gets blamed for things like missing pies. He pulls pranks that could be described as reckless - letting a badger loose on the green.

 

Mat's portrayal in the show is a slightly edgier version of that, I guess? We're meant to think he stole the bracelet from Danya, but we aren't sure. We know Mat is a gambler, so that hits the mark. And most everything else that he's done has been post dagger acquisition. 

[Sabio]

Hmm besides the dagger I don't remember Mat stealing anything in the books.  He was mostly playing pranks so anytime something happened in town Mat would usually get blamed.  He did like to gamble and drink but I don't remember the book going into much detail about that until after they left the Two River's.  I don't remember Gambling being mentioned much until he was trying to earn coin to get out of Tar Valon.

 

Curse your fast typing Elder_Haman.

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Sabio

[TheDreadReader]

26 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Here is a man that can channel, has an army, is skilled enough to be using the power in battle, and calling himself the Dragon.  The Red's especially should have been totally prepared.  By being so unprepared like allowing Loagin's "so called army" to get so close and having so much trouble keeping him shielded, it made the Aes Sedai seem like they had no idea what they were doing,

 

Yes, I'd argue that is both intentional and present in the books as well.   The overall society in Randland in both the show and the books is not a society that is progressing towards a brighter future but one that is regressing from a brilliant past (for obvious in-book reasons).

 

Aes Sedai hubris is just a part of that.

 

The Dragon being reborn is the pattern correcting that downward trajectory.

 

 

26 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Now I understand by having them unprepared was to build drama, show of Nyn's power etc..  or budget reasons having thirteen people just sitting there as extras isn't feasible.  People who haven't read the books won't know the difference and people like me who have read the books will read too much into things.  My main issue with this is more of it just didn't make the Aes Sedai come off looking very good or competent.

 

Yes.  I'd say that is the subtext that you're supposed to take from it.  And, I think that you're supposed to think of the Aes Sedai as an non-evil antagonist for much of the books.

 

 

[Gothic Flame]

18 minutes ago, Badmaw said:

Another point.  In the show Mat, frankly, is portrayed as a degenerate gambler and thief.  It’s been awhile but did the books portray him this way?  I recall Mat was a prankster who was irritating, in a humorous way, not a criminal with a gambling addiction.

He's in most of the first book with Rand, with "mischief" or related, being connected to him and his actions. But yea...it's always humorous with him...even when he's complaining.

[Skipp]

38 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Here is a man that can channel, has an army, is skilled enough to be using the power in battle, and calling himself the Dragon.  The Red's especially should have been totally prepared.  By being so unprepared like allowing Loagin's "so called army" to get so close and having so much trouble keeping him shielded, it made the Aes Sedai seem like they had no idea what they were doing,

 

Now I understand by having them unprepared was to build drama, show of Nyn's power etc..  or budget reasons having thirteen people just sitting there as extras isn't feasible.  People who haven't read the books won't know the difference and people like me who have read the books will read too much into things.  My main issue with this is more of it just didn't make the Aes Sedai come off looking very good or competent.

The thing is they were prepared.  They sent 8 sisters to capture Logain, which is possibly taking the place of 13.  It just happened that Logain is SO much more powerful than they realised, and really there is no way they could have known before hand.  Him being so powerful led to only 3 of the 8 sent being strong enough to maintain a shield around him and that requiring 2 to be shielding him at all times.  And we know from the show that still wasn't enough as he was prepared to breakout whenever he needed.

 

3 of the currently most power Aes Sedai could only safely shield him together.... how much more prepared could they have been?

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

He's in most of the first book with Rand, with "mischief" or related, being connected to him and his actions. But yea...it's always humorous with him...even when he's complaining.

The man who once walked while a little chilly

[Badmaw]

23 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

In the books, Mat doesn't get much portrayal at all until book 3. To the extent we know things about him, we know that he's a troublemaker who often gets blamed for things like missing pies. He pulls pranks that could be described as reckless - letting a badger loose on the green.

 

Mat's portrayal in the show is a slightly edgier version of that, I guess? We're meant to think he stole the bracelet from Danya, but we aren't sure. We know Mat is a gambler, so that hits the mark. And most everything else that he's done has been post dagger acquisition. 

I agree.  But, the show flatly shows Mat had gambled away all of his money.  It was made into an important point when Rand and Perrin have a serious/concerned discussion about his gambling losses.  I can let that go as part of the story though.  Then he sells the stolen jewelry to Fain.  Most folks don’t like thieves and portraying him as such changes folks opinion of Mat as a character.  Mat, portrayed as a “rascal” in the book, was fun.  Mat portrayed as a thief, not so much.

[flinn]

5 minutes ago, Badmaw said:

I agree.  But, the show flatly shows Mat had gambled away all of his money.  It was made into an important point when Rand and Perrin have a serious/concerned discussion about his gambling losses.  I can let that go as part of the story though.  Then he sells the stolen jewelry to Fain.  Most folks don’t like thieves and portraying him as such changes folks opinion of Mat as a character.  Mat, portrayed as a “rascal” in the book, was fun.  Mat portrayed as a thief, not so much.

 I agree with this. Mat went from the rascal to a thieving, gambling, degenerate that deserves no sympathy at all in the beginning. Mat was always a really good guy that grumbled. He is now an untrustworthy punk.

[Elder_Haman]

He was a thief in the books. He stole pies.

[flinn]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

He was a thief in the books. He stole pies.

sigh....

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, flinn said:

sigh....

I understand the point you're making. You don't find Mat a sympathetic character. That's cool. And you're right that they have made him darker than his book counterpart. I'm just saying, he was a thief in the books. 

 

[Badmaw]

12 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

He was a thief in the books. He stole pies.

 

Do the books actually say he stole pies or do they suggest he may have stolen pies?