Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Elder_Haman]

9 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

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Lan hesitated, then spoke in a loud voice. "Why do we mourn?"

the soldiers nearby turned toward him.

"Is this not what we have trained for?" Lan shouted. "Is this not our purpose, our very lives? This war is not a thing to mourn. Other men may have been lax, but we have not been. We are prepared, and so this is a time of glory."

  "Let their be laughter! Let there be joy! Let us cheer the fallen and drink to our forefathers, who taught us well. If you die on the morrow, awaiting your rebirth, be proud. The Last Battle is upon us, and we are ready!"

 

Different situation. The suicide of a Warder a month after his Aes Sedai's death is not what they have trained for. It isn't the last battle. And it isn't war. 

[Gothic Flame]

32 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Different situation. The suicide of a Warder a month after his Aes Sedai's death is not what they have trained for. It isn't the last battle. And it isn't war. 

That whole scene was a fabrication down to Lan's character, which doesn't change much beyond Nynaeve's influence in the books.

To wit;

Spoiler

   "Let us go to Lord Agelmar," Lan shouted as men began to yell and equipment to rattle. "If you fight beneath my banner, then I will accept the role of leader gladly."

   "No hesitation at all?" Easar said.

   "What am I?" Lan asked, swinging into the saddle. "Some sheepherder from a forgotten village? I will do my duty. If men are foolish enough to put me in charge of them, I'll send them about theirs as well."

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Gothic Flame
Clarity

[Elder_Haman]

I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make. Yes

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

That whole scene was a fabrication

No one is claiming otherwise. That is an entirely different issue. And I don’t understand what point you are making with that quote. Lan always did his duty. That’s who he is. 

[phoenixtrinity]

8 hours ago, Maximillion said:

 

I think if they just portrayed Lan's character as in the books it would have been great.  Nothing wrong with that at all and very much adaptable to the screen.

Lan is a guarded and stoic individual. He does not give much away.  He is ready to act when required and doesn't give in to emotional responses.  This does not make him one dimensional at all.  In fact, by TGH, he is already started to show that he cares for others besides Moiraine,  Teaching Rand swordsmanship but also gently advising him and guiding him on his meeting with the AS.  You get to know him and if he likes and respects you, you work your way into his inner circle.  MANY people are like this today.  It's quite a common trait and the pay off showing character interactions that break down his stoicism and unlock his respect and friendship could have been great.

Instead, we get Rafe Judkins cookie cutter - and deluded - view of what a man should be.

Turning Lan into a blubbering emotional wreck and largely incompetent is THE worst thing about the entire adaptation in my view - even worse than #badass Nynaeve,

 

As someone who was raised by a real-life Stoic not unlike "book Lan", it's insulting this is what you think stoicism is. Stoicism is a way of finding balance within, acceptance of the give and take of life, and living a virtuous life. It is not being stone-faced and emotionless 24/7, especially not in situations like a funeral in which you are chosen to channel others' grief. When my rl mentor let down his walls and cried, those were some of his most powerful moments.

 

I understand your argument that show Lan is not book Lan, but at least be honest and use reasoning instead of making assumptions. For example, you could be arguing he is unlikely to have been chosen to be the one channeling grief instead of arguing he is a "blubbering emotional wreck".

 

(Side-note, I asked my husband to pick one word to describe Lan during this episode, and he said "stoic and reserved". He hasn't read the books.)

[Mailman]

5 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Different situation. The suicide of a Warder a month after his Aes Sedai's death is not what they have trained for. It isn't the last battle. And it isn't war. 

But it is.

Trollocs are currently in the two rivers where they have not been for 100yrs of years and they are chasing the DR the only hope of all mankind. Lan should be focusing his attention on locating the lost groups not funerals and sitting around Tar Valon. Mourn when you have time after finding the DR, that is his duty.

[TheSmurf]

I really think this is a very good example of a disconnect between casual viewers and some or many book fans.

Scene was fine, and imo very well acted (shirt rip aside, too much)... Was it necessary? Was it too long? Was the whole Steppin saga necessary, or the screen time devoted to it necessary... 

 

Worth a good debate indeed ?

 

I certainly don't think the grief ceremony 'lessened' Lan. But would also have liked him to have been depicted (way) more competent.

[fra85uk]

But there is no doubt that Stepin arc is the most carefully crafted arc so-far because is their stuff, not book  

Stepin and Dana the darkfriend have been both given a nice characterization, more than some main characters

[Maximillion]

5 hours ago, phoenixtrinity said:

 

As someone who was raised by a real-life Stoic not unlike "book Lan", it's insulting this is what you think stoicism is. Stoicism is a way of finding balance within, acceptance of the give and take of life, and living a virtuous life. It is not being stone-faced and emotionless 24/7, especially not in situations like a funeral in which you are chosen to channel others' grief. When my rl mentor let down his walls and cried, those were some of his most powerful moments.

 

I understand your argument that show Lan is not book Lan, but at least be honest and use reasoning instead of making assumptions. For example, you could be arguing he is unlikely to have been chosen to be the one channeling grief instead of arguing he is a "blubbering emotional wreck".

 

(Side-note, I asked my husband to pick one word to describe Lan during this episode, and he said "stoic and reserved". He hasn't read the books.)

I did not describe nor attempt to open up a discussion on the definition of stoicism. Sorry you are insulted.

 

 Lan is stoic in the books and anything but in the TV series.

I described him as a blubbering wreck in the TV series because that is what I have seen on screen. There are no assumptions required.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Maximillion

[notpropaganda73]

13 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

But there is no doubt that Stepin arc is the most carefully crafted arc so-far because is their stuff, not book  

Stepin and Dana the darkfriend have been both given a nice characterization, more than some main characters

 

I agree with that and I've enjoyed the show as a whole so far. It's a completely fair criticism of the show, although by the same token I'm coming at it from a biased book reader perspective. The last episode left me so disappointed and last night my partner (never read the books) asked what it was that annoyed me about it. I didn't want to get in to spoilers so I asked "What do you feel like the story is?" because part of me feels like we're not getting enough about the Dragon and even the "mystery" about the 5 EFers isn't playing out that well (although I admit that may be recency bias as ep5 was so focussed on the White Tower and the bond). She said "It's about those 5 kids and one of them is going to be the chosen one, but I actually think it's going to be all five of them" which sort of surprised me. 

 

I think it's something to keep in mind, and I know it has been mentioned on these boards before, but even anecdotally it does seem as though a lot of the things they are doing are working for the wider audience without as much lore knowledge as many of us. Just from my partner, the Dana reveal as a Darkfriend absolutely bowled her over in terms of the world building and wider implications. She also really loved episode 4 (although this may be because she is Spanish and a big Alvaro Morte fan, when he first appeared at the end of episode 3 she shouted "El Profesor!" hahaha).

 

I think where I differ with a lot of people who are completely out on the show or negative about almost every episode, is that from everything I've seen I truly believe the likes of Rafe do understand the Wheel of Time so I trust that the decisions being made are for the long term good of the series as a whole. I may not like some decisions or how they've handled certain characters so far, but overall I'm getting a warm fuzzy WoT feeling for the most part . I just really really hope we get some proper focus on the EF5 now.

[Chwooly]

I am sitting here trying to get thru E05 and I just don't find it interesting or thought provoking. As a long time fan of the books, This should be canceled now. 

 

No I am not a stickler for staying true to the books, I just find that the story as they are telling it to just be poorly done.  I have read Foundation, then watched the show and thought it was decent even though it wasn't true to the books, Same for Game of Thrones, Even Starship Troopers which was very far from the book was at least entertaining in it's own right. 

 

But honestly this is just a travesty of poor writing, poor pacing, and poor acting, At least the scenery is fairly decent. 

 

Dune, GOT, and LOTR are all good examples of how it should be done. I have started to read Michael Connelly's Harry Bosch books after watching the series and that was another series that was very well done and now that I am reading the books, There are some changes but nothing that makes me want to rip out my eyes. 

 

I am faithfully waiting for it to be canceled 

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, phoenixtrinity said:

 

(Side-note, I asked my husband to pick one word to describe Lan during this episode, and he said "stoic and reserved". He hasn't read the books.)

That's more than one word...

[WhatsaSeawolf]

5 episodes in I don’t hate it…but I don’t like it either.

 

After waiting for so long and dreaming about WOT on screen, the best way I can describe the show is bland and generic.  It’s also gone a long way to destroying the source material, which I would be more forgiving towards if the show was actually entertaining.  (Ultimately, I want more people to read the books, and I think the show is failing massively in terms of accomplishing that goal.)

 

I think my two biggest gripes is a complete lack of scope and a horrid tone.  Robert Jordan crafted an incredibly nuanced and detailed world that came more alive with every page, full of life, intrigue, and humor.  None of that is present in the show.  There is no life-everything is dull and bland, with nothing unique or memorable.  There is no intrigue, because instead of growing with the world the only mystery the show portrays is ‘who is the Dragon Reborn.’  And there is no humor, eschewing some of the funny or heartwarming scenes for a grimdark tone.

 

 I can understand not starting with the prologue as written, but they really missed out on a huge opportunity by doing essentially what LOTR did in Fellowship.  A quick 5 minute summary saying ‘X thousand of years ago’ and go into how the Dark One had been unleashed, everyone was suffering etc.  So Lews Therin and his hundred companions (I think, it’s been a long time since I’ve read the books) came up with a plan to defeat the Dark One.  The female Aes Sedai disagreed, and foresaw great calamity resulting from the brash move.  (Boom, they get their male vs female dynamic.)  Lews Therin went forward with his plan without female assistance.  Him and his companions succeeded…but at a price.  Saidin, the male half of the true source, was tainted, corrupted.  Before long, any man who could channel the One Power…flash to a few quick scenes of men going insane and breaking the world.  You could even finish with parts of the prologue.  ‘I have won again Lews Therin.’

 

This would do exactly what the LOTR movies did with establishing the world, politics, strife and history in a very short period of time.  Yes it would be CGI intensive, and yes, it would throw a monkey wrench into the show runners asinine ‘the Dragon can be male or female’ mystery, but it would set up something the show is desperately craving.  A foundation.  Something that makes the show better than generic grimdark fantasy.  (And no, ‘who is the Dragon Reborn’ is not a foundation, it’s a cheap parlor trick to string people along.  Once it’s resolved, what’s left for the audience?)

 

Then, having shown to the audience some of what is coming (grand displays and battles using the One Power) you could take a breath and not tear through the Two Rivers at breakneck speed.

 

I could forgive a sloppy introduction episode if what follows was better.  Instead we get almost no characterization from the books, more breakneck pacing, horrid CGI and just….boredom.  We only get 8 episodes for season 1, why did we spend so long in episodes 4 and 5 away from the Emond’s Field 5?  Where did the $10 million an episode go?  The writing and dialogue are just horrid.  I could nitpick every episode apart for an hour, but it all boils down to one thing.  It’s just boring.

 

With all that said, I still tune in every week.  But as the episodes tick by, it’s more for the glimmer of hope that the show will turn things around and be something to be proud of, rather than actual interest.  I flat out laughed out loud at the end of episode 5.  I somehow doubt that’s what Rafe and company were going for.

[Deviations]

16 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

How about the writers focus on what's in the books and not fabricate time-wasting scenes?

100% agree.  WOT was well written.  There is no need to introduce fabricated scenes to help people understand a concept that isn't proportionately relevant until later in the story.  Use the story's scenes to do that as they were originally written.

 

The fact that Lan's scene at the funeral is so debated is a strong indicator that the effort failed.  Did Jordan's development of Lan throughout the books fail?  Did the understated scenes with Nyn traveling with Lan and Moraine fail?  Did the scene by the lakes in Malkier in the blight fail?

 

I get that there are almost polar opposite views on this so I'm not sure my argument will change anyone's mind.

[Deviations]

21 minutes ago, WhatsaSeawolf said:

Robert Jordan crafted an incredibly nuanced and detailed world that came more alive with every page, full of life, intrigue, and humor.  None of that is present in the show.

Well said.

[Sabio]

6 hours ago, Chwooly said:

I am sitting here trying to get thru E05 and I just don't find it interesting or thought provoking. As a long time fan of the books, This should be canceled now. 

 

No I am not a stickler for staying true to the books, I just find that the story as they are telling it to just be poorly done.  I have read Foundation, then watched the show and thought it was decent even though it wasn't true to the books, Same for Game of Thrones, Even Starship Troopers which was very far from the book was at least entertaining in it's own right. 

 

But honestly this is just a travesty of poor writing, poor pacing, and poor acting, At least the scenery is fairly decent. 

 

Dune, GOT, and LOTR are all good examples of how it should be done. I have started to read Michael Connelly's Harry Bosch books after watching the series and that was another series that was very well done and now that I am reading the books, There are some changes but nothing that makes me want to rip out my eyes. 

 

I am faithfully waiting for it to be canceled 

Well they're already working on season 2 so you have at least another season wait.  The pacing I put most of the blame on Amazon for only agreeing to an eight episode season.  Yes there is a bit of time wasting in some episodes, but even 10 episodes could of helped the pace alot.

[Vambram]

1 hour ago, Deviations said:

100% agree.  WOT was well written.  There is no need to introduce fabricated scenes to help people understand a concept that isn't proportionately relevant until later in the story.  Use the story's scenes to do that as they were originally written.

 

The fact that Lan's scene at the funeral is so debated is a strong indicator that the effort failed.  Did Jordan's development of Lan throughout the books fail?  Did the understated scenes with Nyn traveling with Lan and Moraine fail?  Did the scene by the lakes in Malkier in the blight fail?

 

I get that there are almost polar opposite views on this so I'm not sure my argument will change anyone's mind.

 

Here is something to keep in mind about Amazon's adaptation of WoT. If the purpose of Rafe Judkins and Amazon was to produce the show in order to please book readers of RJ's work only, then they would not be targeting a big enough audience to make the show a huge success and justify the hundreds of millions of dollars already spent for seasons 1 & 2. 

I believe that If this show is going to be a success, then it MUST have the largest majority of its audience come from viewers who enjoy watching fantasy but don't like reading door stop sized books. Considering that the show is getting mostly positive reviews from non-readers, then I believe that the show is well on its way to being successful.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Deviations said:

There is no need to introduce fabricated scenes to help people understand a concept that isn't proportionately relevant until later in the story.

Yes there absolutely is! You have to establish the stakes for the important concepts in the show. You can't just - all of a sudden in S3 - say to your audience, "oh and by the way this Warder Bond thing? It's a huge deal. It's going to essentially drive the entire ending of the season and be the key factor in three of our mains plotlines." That would feel contrived and cheesy.

 

1 hour ago, Deviations said:

Use the story's scenes to do that as they were originally written.

But you really can't. Because EotW is written almost exclusively from Rand's POV. You can't have characters just disappear for episodes on end. You can't just introduce key concepts through exposition of Rand's thoughts, the way the book does. You can't have major things like the Trolloc attack on Emond's Field happen off-screen - it doesn't have any impact that way.

 

I didn't love the Stepin arc. I thought it was a little drawn out and the two funeral framing of the episode was trying too hard. But it did an effective job of demonstrating the depth of the bond and what it does to warders. The scene was memorable. It made an impression. Now we see where it goes. Our heroes are about to be back on course - together and headed into the Ways.

 

I'd ask you this: what key book moment have we missed? I can think of only two so far:  Perrin did not kill a Whitecloak (at least he hasn't yet), and Rand did not fall into the palace Garden. Otherwise, the main beats of EotW are all present in the tv show. 

[Gothic Flame]

11 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Yes there absolutely is! You have to establish the stakes for the important concepts in the show.

Are you saying that such a thing should have been done in the book?

[Katherine]

20 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

 

I'd ask you this: what key book moment have we missed? I can think of only two so far:  Perrin did not kill a Whitecloak (at least he hasn't yet), and Rand did not fall into the palace Garden. Otherwise, the main beats of EotW are all present in the tv show. 

 

I remember before the episodes were released reading an episode 1-6 review from a critic. She basically said she got 6 hours in and didn't care about the characters..... except maybe Matt and since that actor is leaving it is hard to care about him either. 

 

What you say about "key moments" is fair as far as I remember. And we could all argue about different plot options that weren't taken. 

 

But what we have missed is time with the characters. When they reveal that 

Spoiler

Rand

Spoiler

Is the DR..... will anyone care? Because we don't know him at all (if we are just watching the TV show).

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Katherine
The spoiler tag and I did weird things. Sorry!

[Elder_Haman]

9 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Are you saying that such a thing should have been done in the book?

Of course. And it was. We heard exposition about the bond. Later, we got internal POVs from bonded characters.

 

The problem is those things are either clunky on screen (exposition) or impossible to film (internal POV). They also often come at times that would otherwise not be on screen, so you have to find a way to shoehorn it into an existing scene or create a new scene to accommodate it.

 

 

 

[Gothic Flame]

Fair enough..

[swollymammoth]

9 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

"oh and by the way this Warder Bond thing? It's a huge deal. It's going to essentially drive the entire ending of the season and be the key factor in three of our mains plotlines."

I actually feel like this is pretty common. Season 2 of Avatar brings up Chakras out of nowhere and those end up being the key to the entire ending of the season and it's awesome. It's totally normal for a season of a show (or a novel in a series) to focus around a central theme/mechanic which up to that point either wasn't mentioned or, if it was mentioned, was just a worldbuilding detail. 

 

Actually, it's kind of just Pacing 101 that you start a story by laying a solid foundation. Then you explore select themes/mechanics/characters in depth when they become relevant to the story. It's not contrived. Literally every story works like this. Ideas and characters hang in the background and then get thrust into the spotlight when it's time for them to shine. 

 

It's this simple: Have Moirane explain the bond. Later, have a scene where an Aes Sedai is killed and have our characters pass the body of a Warder, his own sword sticking out of his chest. Squeeze another mention from Lan, maybe a conversation with Nynaeve where he explains his own feelings about the Bond to her (also develops their relationship). Oiala! That's it! That's all you have to do. People aren't goldfish. We can remember things, and this would be enough across 2 seasons to justify the Bond taking on greater importance in season 3. 

 

Kinda just seems like writing 101. But then again, these days it seems like most writers think their audience is stupid, so I'm not surprised they chose to just beat us over the head with it. 

[KakitaOCU]

19 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Are you saying that such a thing should have been done in the book?

I'll say it should have been.  Not that exact scene, but the ramifications of the bond should have come up better.

As is, in book 2 Moraine gives a small info dump, but it reads like she knows he'll march to the Blight if she dies, not like the bond will drive him to death.

Then Book 5 happens and he stoicly walks away with no real explanation...

It's not until book...  11? (Is it 11, first real time I remember is Elayne and Vandene being captured  by BA)..  That we really see what the bond does.  It's so poorly explained that when they did a d20 RPG book for WoT with RJ's approval around book 7 the bond is completely fabricated for the game because they didn't know what it did exactly.

So yes, having it shown up front how severe the bond is is important.

[swollymammoth]

22 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Are you saying that such a thing should have been done in the book?

The book just kinda mentions over and over again that the Bond is important and that Warders go crazy when their Aes Sedai die. Then, like a miracle, when Moiraine dies our brains do their job and we immediately understand the stakes. Almost like we're intelligent people capable of making connections. 

 

RJ trusted his readers. The WoT show thinks we're stupid. 

[Gothic Flame]

Dumbing things has never been popular with me.

But I asked...and was answered. So moving on.