Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[thievingsackofpotatoes]

7 hours ago, Blue Sedai said:

At this time nothing on tv is compelling or rich in story or characters so by comparison Wheel of Time is at least worth the watch.

Way off-topic (and I don’t expect a reply) but this came up in another thread. What are y’all watching? There’s some great television out there right now

 

If I was more ambitious I’d start a thread to see what everyone’s watching!

[phoenixtrinity]

5 minutes ago, thievingsackofpotatoes said:

Way off-topic (and I don’t expect a reply) but this came up in another thread. What are y’all watching? There’s some great television out there right now

 

If I was more ambitious I’d start a thread to see what everyone’s watching!

 

If you're willing to try a K-Drama, The King's Affection is surprisingly good. I also recommend Kingdom.

[RextheDog]

On 12/3/2021 at 8:03 AM, flinn said:

 

 

 Then to have to "kill" Lan in order for Nynaeve to badassery heal him, once again lessened Lan for the sake of Nynaeve.

 

 My daughter who is not a book reader and somewhat casual watcher was here watching episode 4 the other day and asked me... "why do they keep letting that guy lead, he always messes up"...

 That should never, ever, ever be uttered when in reference to Lan, but here we are.

 

 

 

 

 

1. how does Lan copping schrapnel in the neck lessen him...its schrapnel, was he meant to deflect it or something? if you really think about it it makes him more badass, front of the line....what would have been weaker is if he was stood next to Nyn, at the back, behind people

 

 

2. he doesnt 'always mess up' you should let her know that....you should let her know that its not as black and white....he had to save Moraine, no matter the cost....he had to shelter in SL, there was no option with a critical AS....he was expected to scout forward and back, he got caught off guard, once, even then his brazen warning to Valda probably put a line in the sand the WC and his whole entourage decided not to cross......he fell asleep comforting his brother, he didnt mug him off, they drank till the wee hours, Stepins resolve to end his life was stronger than Lans resolve to save him......he felt pain at his brothers funeral, thats not a weakness.....

 

alot has changed since 1990 and 2021, i dont get the constant pining for a silent monolithic blunt weapon.....

 

i get the writers could have given him a few more wins, but hes not fighting 'roger rogers', hes still the most talented fighter we've seen.

[Mailman]

2 minutes ago, RextheDog said:

 

1. how does Lan copping schrapnel in the neck lessen him...its schrapnel, was he meant to deflect it or something? if you really think about it it makes him more badass, front of the line....what would have been weaker is if he was stood next to Nyn, at the back, behind people

 

 

2. he doesnt 'always mess up' you should let her know that....you should let her know that its not as black and white....he had to save Moraine, no matter the cost....he had to shelter in SL, there was no option with a critical AS....he was expected to scout forward and back, he got caught off guard, once, even then his brazen warning to Valda probably put a line in the sand the WC and his whole entourage decided not to cross......he fell asleep comforting his brother, he didnt mug him off, they drank till the wee hours, Stepins resolve to end his life was stronger than Lans resolve to save him......he felt pain at his brothers funeral, thats not a weakness.....

 

alot has changed since 1990 and 2021, i dont get the constant pining for a silent monolithic blunt weapon.....

 

i get the writers could have given him a few more wins, but hes not fighting 'roger rogers', hes still the most talented fighter we've seen.

I think you will find Stepin drugged Lan with the herbs he got from Nynvaeve.

 

But they still have reduced Lan

[DaddyFinn]

4 minutes ago, RextheDog said:

he fell asleep comforting his brother, he didnt mug him off, they drank till the wee hour

Stepin put the sleep herbs he got from Nynaeve to Lan's mug

[RextheDog]

16 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Stepin put the sleep herbs he got from Nynaeve to Lan's mug

 

 

ahhhhhh.....but of course.....i assumed the pain killers were for him so he didnt feel the blade, but it makes more sense what you say now.

 

doesnt change the point i was trying to make though.

[RextheDog]

18 minutes ago, Mailman said:

I think you will find Stepin drugged Lan with the herbs he got from Nynvaeve.

 

But they still have reduced Lan

 

yep, my bad.

 

agree they have reduced him, not arguing against that, i guess im saying its not as dramatic as some are making out, and its not an absolute betrayal of the character (opinion obvs.) if anything it just escalates the task at hand.

 

its not as game changing as some make out in my mind

 

hes not a clown....for instance, he got done by flying debri, hes a warder....its hardly the keystone cops is it? book Lan couldve been  done by debri as well, he just didnt.

 

 

[Harad the White]

15 minutes ago, RextheDog said:

agree they have reduced him, not arguing against that,

Not sure I agree even with that. His range of character in the Book was very limited. In audiovisual HD it enhances the character to humanize him. After all the actor, the audience, and situation calls for a human being. So far, no problems with the character. I am sure they will emphasize the other qualities you prize later.

[Terry05]

31 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Not sure I agree even with that. His range of character in the Book was very limited. In audiovisual HD it enhances the character to humanize him. After all the actor, the audience, and situation calls for a human being. So far, no problems with the character. I am sure they will emphasize the other qualities you prize later.

So true. People seem to be forgetting/ignoring the very limited range book Lan had.

[RextheDog]

2 hours ago, Harad the White said:

 I am sure they will emphasize the other qualities you prize later.

 

just to clarify, im happy with the humanising of Lan, i want him to get a few runs on the board, but i dont have a hankering for the robotrolloccruncher 2000

 

im justifying his 'misses', some of the comments are strange to me, first and foremost being the implication he shouldnt be getting hit by debri in a battle.....

[flinn]

33 minutes ago, RextheDog said:

 

just to clarify, im happy with the humanising of Lan, i want him to get a few runs on the board, but i dont have a hankering for the robotrolloccruncher 2000

 

im justifying his 'misses', some of the comments are strange to me, first and foremost being the implication he shouldnt be getting hit by debri in a battle.....

 It is the total, not just one thing it is the total of all things. Morainne has been killed twice in a month under Lan's watch. Lan has been killed once. He has screwed up in basically every episode. But hey, you want a guy who is like a girl but like a guy so the change is good. I want the Lan from the books so the change is bad. To each their own.

[RextheDog]

1 minute ago, flinn said:

 But hey, you want a guy who is like a girl but like a guy so the change is good. 

 

please, do go on.....

[Gothic Flame]

Have to wonder with all the hate given the warrior-poet that book-Lan gets here, as well wondering as how dismissed his backstory gets...

 

[MasterAblar]

His backstory is coming up in the 7th episode I believe. I expect my opinion of LAN’s portrayal to improve by the end of the season even if I’m not particularly pleased with it so far (from a book reader’s perspective).

[TheSmurf]

3 hours ago, RextheDog said:

 

just to clarify, im happy with the humanising of Lan

Just wondering what part of stoic, super-capable book Lan is not humanistic (is that even a word hehe)...

 

We're told humans come in many flavours. Why couldn't we get this one? 

 

If it's because some think he would come across as 'boring' or one dimensional, I'd put the blame on the show writers, not the character. Since most of us thoroughly enjoyed book Lan.

 

I think the idea of adapting from book to show is an excuse too readily used to justify changes... 

 

And I'm actually not arguing against change. I don't like changes for changes sake (which I think is happening quite a bit in this show).

 

But I also don't believe this show is being made for the book fans. Regardless of whether book fans accept, like or love it (I'm in the 'accept' camp at the moment). 

 

As a greeting, Hi I'm Brendan from South Africa... I'd consider myself a farmer in the WOT universe.

 

Read the books from childhood and finished the series with my wife as a couple, so I've got a lot of feeling for this series ?

[WheelofJuke]

So far I really like the actor playing Lan; however, I feel like he is unfairly made to act in difficult scenes (e.g., that funeral scene would be tough for an Oscar winner to pull off) to the detriment of some vision of  "canon" Lan some of us book readers may or may not have conjured. 

 

To be honest, I hated Lan in the books until he started opening up at the end of book 1 by teaching Rand. He just seemed copy/paste warrior dude who didn't have emotions because he was one dimensional. 

 

I like humanized Lan so far; but the writers need to keep the story closer to the books if they're going to make try to pull of ridiculously diffiuclt scenes. Lan could've just been a anime-type caricature; instead he seems to have been cast for the breadth of emotion Lan would have to portray later. They're just revealing all this way too early, through a patchwork combination  of exposition, storywriting, and directing. 

 

Humanized Lan isn't the problem, it's what they've surrounded him with and asked of him.

Edited December 6, 2021 by WheelofJuke
shpelin nd grahmr

[Sabio]

One has to remember early stone faced Lan and no reason to be friendly, he had no connection to these strangers.  He even had to deal with Egwene and Thom, who weren't suppose to be there, adding to the danger. The trollocs, fades etc.  camping in Shadar Logoth etcc..  isn't going to lead to a relaxed and chatty Lan.  So seems natural Lan early on would be rather pissy.

 

I would expect Lan's story to get told more the closer they get to Malkier.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Sabio

[Deviations]

The concession I'll make is that these writers do not have the time to open the view behind each of the characters that Jordan had.

 

We learned about Lan slowly.  Very slowly.  Eight seasons of eight episodes?  I get that they have to speed it up.

 

My view is that they could have sped it up by condensing some of the travels (how many pages of Rand and Mat were dedicated to the journey to Caemlyn?).    That could have been greatly condensed without morphing to a Tar Valon visit that never happened in the source material.

 

We will never get to see Faile call Lan "Stone Face" because he'll never be "Stone Face" in this version.

 

We will never see Rand play the flute, never see him sway at the top of a ship's mast.  But, I guess we get to see him pine for Egwene like Annikan Skywalker.  Awesome.

[RhienneAgain]

2 hours ago, WheelofJuke said:

So far I really like the actor playing Lan; however, I feel like he is unfairly made to act in difficult scenes (e.g., that funeral scene would be tough for an Oscar winner to pull off) to the detriment of some vision of  "canon" Lan some of us book readers may or may not have conjured. 

 

To be honest, I hated Lan in the books until he started opening up at the end of book 1 by teaching Rand. He just seemed copy/paste warrior dude who didn't have emotions because he was one dimensional. 

 

I like humanized Lan so far; but the writers need to keep the story closer to the books if they're going to make try to pull of ridiculously diffiuclt scenes. Lan could've just been a anime-type caricature; instead he seems to have been cast for the breadth of emotion Lan would have to portray later. They're just revealing all this way too early, through a patch exposition and storywriting and directing. 

 

Humanized Lan isn't the problem, it's what they've surrounded him with and asked of him.

I think you're absolutely right on this.

 

It seems like Nynaeve and Egwene are similar - the actresses are playing them as though they are the characters from the end of the series rather than the beginning. It's a bit rubbish because the character growth on their arcs is what makes it interesting!

[Harad the White]

9 hours ago, Dead Warder said:

The books are categorized as fantasy which we generally read to separate ourselves from reality.

True. However, Episode 5 is not a Book. If we saw and heard a character remain completely stoic, show no expressions, no emotions, have no contact with other characters, be the robotrollocruncher2000 ( @RextheDog) , that may satisfy purists, but the vast majority of non-book readers might criticize that character as being a stereotype. That also applies to Book-readers that accept cinematic adaptations as a separate art.

[Maximillion]

1 hour ago, Dead Warder said:

Yeah, you're probably right. I think the bigger picture is that no matter which way a character is portrayed, it will be criticized to some degree regardless. The inevitable result of creating an adaptation.

 

I think if they just portrayed Lan's character as in the books it would have been great.  Nothing wrong with that at all and very much adaptable to the screen.

Lan is a guarded and stoic individual. He does not give much away.  He is ready to act when required and doesn't give in to emotional responses.  This does not make him one dimensional at all.  In fact, by TGH, he is already started to show that he cares for others besides Moiraine,  Teaching Rand swordsmanship but also gently advising him and guiding him on his meeting with the AS.  You get to know him and if he likes and respects you, you work your way into his inner circle.  MANY people are like this today.  It's quite a common trait and the pay off showing character interactions that break down his stoicism and unlock his respect and friendship could have been great.

Instead, we get Rafe Judkins cookie cutter - and deluded - view of what a man should be.

Turning Lan into a blubbering emotional wreck and largely incompetent is THE worst thing about the entire adaptation in my view - even worse than #badass Nynaeve,

Edited December 6, 2021 by Maximillion

[Elder_Haman]

I'm having trouble understanding what exactly the issue is with Lan. Before I start - I've said elsewhere and still maintain - that he is the character that is most different from his portrayal in the books. On the other hand - the place he occupies as a character in the show really isn't that much different.

 

Lan is a Warder. He is bonded to Moiraine. Their journey together is the single most important thing in his life. He is entirely dedicated to Moiraine and will do whatever is necessary to help her achieve her goal. He is still all of those things in the show.

 

And he is still stoic - to a degree. He emotes to 2 people: Moiraine (his Aes Sedai) and Stepin (his close friend?) He certainly hasn't been turned into some blubbering wimp as some seem to suggest. The demonstration of emotion at Steppin's funeral was called for. He was specifically asked to be the person who performed acts of ritualized grief - the beating of the breast and the rending of clothes is a ritualized act (see, for example, the Jewish keriah). Him screaming and tearing his clothing is similar in this context to a priest saying a prayer. It has nothing to do with him being unmanly.

 

I think where the show has failed with Lan isn't so much that they have devalued him - they haven't. But rather, they have missed opportunities to give us a sense of his real ability. As a character in the books, we know Lan to be hyper capable, but all we know of him thus far in the show is as sort of ... average. Maybe above average as a swordsman, given his performance on Winternight. Apart from that, however, he hasn't really done anything. Lan needs a moment - all on his own - that shows him to be more than just a guy who's pretty good with a sword. Hopefully it's coming.

 

 

[Ralph]

In the BtS clip Daniel Henney tries to explain how he has acted Lan as someone who rarely shows any emotion, except that he has been asked to represent everyone at the funeral, and why he felt this is the way to do it. Note there are no tears at all

[Deviations]

48 minutes ago, Ralph said:

In the BtS clip Daniel Henney tries to explain how he has acted Lan as someone who rarely shows any emotion, except that he has been asked to represent everyone at the funeral, and why he felt this is the way to do it. Note there are no tears at all

Would the book Lan have represented everyone's emotion at a funeral?  Don't think so.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Deviations

[Theseus78]

1 minute ago, Deviations said:

Wood the book Lan have represented everyone's emotion at a funeral?  Don't think so.

If he felt it was his duty?  Absolutely.