Rand's Three "Wives"

[spirfire4000]

I haven't read all the replies, but I was surprised that from the ones I did read nobody saw my take on it.  I think it's all about lineage. Avienda represents his father's people. The children he has through her will be his lineage of the Aiel nation. She is the wife of the Cara'carn. Elayne represents his mother's people, and the children he has to her will continue that royal line.  Elayne is the mate of the Dragon Reborn. But Min? She is from where he is from. She is the wife of Rand al'Thor. That's why her relationship with him is the most believable and the most real. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

8 hours ago, spirfire4000 said:

I haven't read all the replies, but I was surprised that from the ones I did read nobody saw my take on it.  I think it's all about lineage. Avienda represents his father's people. The children he has through her will be his lineage of the Aiel nation. She is the wife of the Cara'carn. Elayne represents his mother's people, and the children he has to her will continue that royal line.  Elayne is the mate of the Dragon Reborn. But Min? She is from where he is from. She is the wife of Rand al'Thor. That's why her relationship with him is the most believable and the most real. 

Thank you for reviving this post! I’m relatively new here and would unlikely have seen it otherwise. I like your take on it and the way you pointed out the symbolic representations of each relationship. The only thing I would add (my 2 cents, irrelevant and unwanted as they may be) is this: I get why people have their various gripes and criticisms of all sides of the situation. I personally don’t have any negative reactions to the situation (aside from maybe insufficient information in story to explain why the connection is so intense and all consuming for some of the involved characters), considering it is consensual. I actually have something positive as my main take away. IMO, what I appreciated most was the bond built between the three women. Sure they all loved the same man, and it seems Rand is so desirable and their feelings for him so powerful that they’re willing to share him. What I appreciated was the love and respect the women genuinely worked on and ultimately had for each other. Women can typically be portrayed as selfish, manipulative and deceitful. In this case we see a love story between 3 women that may actually surpass the Rand stuff in some ways. Or that’s how I experienced it anyway. 

[Nasuadax]

On 5/26/2023 at 12:29 AM, spirfire4000 said:

I haven't read all the replies, but I was surprised that from the ones I did read nobody saw my take on it.  I think it's all about lineage. Avienda represents his father's people. The children he has through her will be his lineage of the Aiel nation. She is the wife of the Cara'carn. Elayne represents his mother's people, and the children he has to her will continue that royal line.  Elayne is the mate of the Dragon Reborn. But Min? She is from where he is from. She is the wife of Rand al'Thor. That's why her relationship with him is the most believable and the most real. 

this was exactly my take as well. All the mentions about trinities and different learning opportunities were packed in their as well, but i felt like this lineage was the core of the package. And everything else was a means to an end. They all 3 had their challenges and lessons to teach rhand, but all of them were related to their birthplace. This also ties in with something that was put to very little attention in the books, but the fact that rhand is the dragon reborn because he is the fusion of the 3 main tribes on this version of earth. it is mentioned 3 times in all of the books, but it ties in with the 3 wifes, what they teach hem, but mainly WHY they teach hem and why he needs to have 3 wives.

to reunite the world after breaking it. He needs to take all of them equally into account to make sure all of them will be able to unite not only for the final fight but for the turning of the wheel that comes after

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

15 hours ago, Nasuadax said:

this was exactly my take as well. All the mentions about trinities and different learning opportunities were packed in their as well, but i felt like this lineage was the core of the package. And everything else was a means to an end. They all 3 had their challenges and lessons to teach rhand, but all of them were related to their birthplace. This also ties in with something that was put to very little attention in the books, but the fact that rhand is the dragon reborn because he is the fusion of the 3 main tribes on this version of earth. it is mentioned 3 times in all of the books, but it ties in with the 3 wifes, what they teach hem, but mainly WHY they teach hem and why he needs to have 3 wives.

to reunite the world after breaking it. He needs to take all of them equally into account to make sure all of them will be able to unite not only for the final fight but for the turning of the wheel that comes after

Interesting observations! I will admit that as willing I was to go with it (Rand and the 3 wives) and without any judgement or resistance to it, I never really fully understood what the purpose was. I really appreciate you expanding my awareness on the subject. 

[DojoToad]

19 hours ago, Nasuadax said:

this was exactly my take as well. All the mentions about trinities and different learning opportunities were packed in their as well, but i felt like this lineage was the core of the package. And everything else was a means to an end. They all 3 had their challenges and lessons to teach rhand, but all of them were related to their birthplace. This also ties in with something that was put to very little attention in the books, but the fact that rhand is the dragon reborn because he is the fusion of the 3 main tribes on this version of earth. it is mentioned 3 times in all of the books, but it ties in with the 3 wifes, what they teach hem, but mainly WHY they teach hem and why he needs to have 3 wives.

to reunite the world after breaking it. He needs to take all of them equally into account to make sure all of them will be able to unite not only for the final fight but for the turning of the wheel that comes after

What are the 3 tribes?

[Desudro]

Spoilers abound!

 

I know this is late, but what I realized is that Min, Elayne, and Aviendha could represent is the Wicca/Pagan Goddess (Hecate, I think, but unsure), who is often represented as the three stages of womanhood: the maiden, the mother, and the crone.

 

Min is the representation of the maiden: youthful, playful, active. Elayne, for obvious reasons by the end of the series, represents the Mother: giving birth, nurturing, stately. And Avi represents the crone: learned, capable, and wise (she does become a Wise One by the end).

Edited November 6, 2023 by Desudro

[Yamezt]

2 hours ago, Desudro said:

Min is the representation of the maiden: youthful, playful, active. Elated, for obvious reasons by the end of the series, represents the Mother: giving birth, nurturing, stately. And Avi represents the crone: learned, capable, and wise (she does become a Wise One by the end).

Interesting - this is the first time I've come across Min given the maiden and Aviendha given the crone.

 

Usually I've seen people made reference to Min being the crone as she is the only one of the 3 whose aging cannot be slowed down. And Aviendha was a Maiden of the Spear (hence maiden).

[Desudro]

23 hours ago, Yamezt said:

Interesting - this is the first time I've come across Min given the maiden and Aviendha given the crone.

 

Usually I've seen people made reference to Min being the crone as she is the only one of the 3 whose aging cannot be slowed down. And Aviendha was a Maiden of the Spear (hence maiden).

I'd never even thought about it that way before. They both work. Symbolism can be ambiguous.

[Asthereal]

On 5/26/2023 at 12:29 AM, spirfire4000 said:

I think it's all about lineage. Avienda represents his father's people. The children he has through her will be his lineage of the Aiel nation. She is the wife of the Cara'carn. Elayne represents his mother's people, and the children he has to her will continue that royal line.  Elayne is the mate of the Dragon Reborn. But Min? She is from where he is from. She is the wife of Rand al'Thor. That's why her relationship with him is the most believable and the most real. 

 

This makes the most sense to me as well. But I think everybody reads into this what they want, or what fits their background. For me personally, polyamory would never work, so I basically have a headcannon where I pick a side, and while in story Rand marries all three, in my head Rand in the very end will end up with just one of them.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Asthereal

[Samt]

I think it's important to realize that while Rand having 3 beautiful women all in love with him is sort of a surface level horny teenage boy fantasy, it doesn't really play out that way.  It's not really at any point tawdry or lewd.  And Rand has a real relationship with all 3 women.  He has responsibilities and duties that he feels towards all 3 of them.  

 

In effect, the lesson is that good relationships take real work.  While Rand also benefits from the earnest efforts of all 3 women, it takes work for him to also build a relationship with each of them.  We can argue about exactly how much depth RJ succeeded in giving the relationships.  But the intention was that these aren't shallow sexual relationships.  In that way, RJ subverts the horny teenage boy expectation by showing that it isn't really about sex.

[Dagon Thyne]

Originally, I think Jordan had planned to have it as more of a polygamous relationship with the girls in a romantic relationship with each other as well as rand and all involved sharing each other

 

But changed it because he felt that have open same sex relationships would hurt the marketability.   Just like he never clearly stated that "pillowfriends" in the white tower were lesbian lovers in the story its e lf.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Dagon Thyne

[Kalessin]

On 11/8/2023 at 6:31 PM, Samt said:

I think it's important to realize that while Rand having 3 beautiful women all in love with him is sort of a surface level horny teenage boy fantasy, it doesn't really play out that way.  It's not really at any point tawdry or lewd.  And Rand has a real relationship with all 3 women.  He has responsibilities and duties that he feels towards all 3 of them.  

 

In effect, the lesson is that good relationships take real work.  While Rand also benefits from the earnest efforts of all 3 women, it takes work for him to also build a relationship with each of them.  We can argue about exactly how much depth RJ succeeded in giving the relationships.  But the intention was that these aren't shallow sexual relationships.  In that way, RJ subverts the horny teenage boy expectation by showing that it isn't really about sex.

Sorry, just had to quote this:
 

Quote

 

Fools Circel 9wys:

Horny Boy rung Widders Bel
Stoal his Fathers Ham as wel
Bernt his Arse and Forkt a Stoan
Done It Over broak a boan
Out of Good Shoar vackt his wayt
Scratcht Sams Itch for No. 8
Gone to senter nex to see
Cambry coming 3 times 3
Sharna pax and get the poal
When the Ardship of Cambry comes out of the hoal

 

 

From Riddley Walker, by Russell Hoban. Mentioning horny teenage boys always brings that poem to mind. And the relevance to Rand and his three wives? I suppose you could say they aren't left widows; that they still are "married" to him after he "dies".

 

In relation to spirfire4000's point about the lineages, it's also about the post-Last Battle balance of power. Andor allied to the peacekeeping force through a common lineage, the common father of the most prestigious Aiel and Andorian lineages, provides a balance to all other powers in Randland. While Min's foresight will give both an edge during the difficult transition period. (Transition periods are the most difficult times in politics. Just ask your local friendly ogre politician.)

[Samt]

5 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

Originally, I think Jordan had planned to have it as more of a polygamous relationship with the girls in a romantic relationship with each other as well as rand and all involved sharing each other

 

But changed it because he felt that have open same sex relationships would hurt the marketability.   Just like he never clearly stated that "pillowfriends" in the white tower were lesbian lovers in the story its e lf.

That's kind of an odd take considering the whole sister wives thing is pretty explicitly a reference to them becoming sisters that share a mother. They have a whole ceremony where they are reborn from a common mother.

So your theory suggests that it's not only polygamous, but also incestuous.  

[Scarloc99]

On 11/10/2023 at 6:06 AM, Samt said:

That's kind of an odd take considering the whole sister wives thing is pretty explicitly a reference to them becoming sisters that share a mother. They have a whole ceremony where they are reborn from a common mother.

So your theory suggests that it's not only polygamous, but also incestuous.  

I always assumed that some sister wives are in a relationship themselves, it is never specifically stated but it very much feels inferred to me, especially how the wife is the one to pick the other wife, that felt like there had to be some level of attraction. 

[Samt]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

I always assumed that some sister wives are in a relationship themselves, it is never specifically stated but it very much feels inferred to me, especially how the wife is the one to pick the other wife, that felt like there had to be some level of attraction. 

I would say the implication is much more compatibility than attraction.  The point is that the sister wives need to live together and collaborate and get along.  It's an unfortunate result of the prevalence of homosexuality in modern culture that close platonic relationships are always seen by some to be homoerotic.  

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, Samt said:

I would say the implication is much more compatibility than attraction.  The point is that the sister wives need to live together and collaborate and get along.  It's an unfortunate result of the prevalence of homosexuality in modern culture that close platonic relationships are always seen by some to be homoerotic.  

I mean homosexuality has been prevelant in every age of human culture, it’s just that people didn’t know how to see it, but I also think it is a side effect of WOT being a sexy fantasy novel, it has far more sexual references then any other fantasy I had read as a teenage boy, in fact that may explain why I keep coming back? And it makes sense RJ wrote steamy bodice tearing novels. I do wonder would a post 50 shades WOT have seen RJ double down on certain things a lot more lol? 

But yes up until that point the only fantasy book I can think of that I had read that had sex in it was Thomas covenant, and that is a very different type of scene 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

9 hours ago, Samt said:

... the prevalence of homosexuality in modern culture.... 

You what? No need to reply, but mother's milk from a cup, dude. 

 

On topic, I would say there are sexual undertones in how sister wives are presented, but it is definitely not a given. We are talking about women who will become sisters, in many ways a closer bond than lovers, so that sense it make sense that their relationships are more important than with the husband. 

 

Though of course the amount of nonconsensual relationships in WoT is kind of strange. I don't really think the ideal is to reach equality by forcing men into relationships, but to stop forcing women and children into them. 

[Samt]

19 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

You what? No need to reply, but mother's milk from a cup, dude. 

 

I didn't anything.  No reply deserved.  

19 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

On topic, I would say there are sexual undertones in how sister wives are presented, but it is definitely not a given. We are talking about women who will become sisters, in many ways a closer bond than lovers, so that sense it make sense that their relationships are more important than with the husband. 

 

Though of course the amount of nonconsensual relationships in WoT is kind of strange. I don't really think the ideal is to reach equality by forcing men into relationships, but to stop forcing women and children into them. 

You think there are sexual undertones, or you think they will become sisters?  It's pretty clear that they are sisters, and I don't see anything in the books suggest there is an incest undertone in that.

 

In regards to non-consensual, it's not that the man can't say no.  It's that it's an all or nothing proposition.  He can decline the proposal.  He just can't chose one of the women and not the other.  There is some weirdness there, but it's neither non-consensual nor completely ridiculous.  

 

3 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I mean homosexuality has been prevelant in every age of human culture, it’s just that people didn’t know how to see it,

Not really.  It's just that now that homosexuality is prevalent today, lots of people read homosexuality into places it simply wasn't.  Case in point, sister wives are not homosexuals.  But now that people are reading homosexuality into things, they read it into sister wives.  

3 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

but I also think it is a side effect of WOT being a sexy fantasy novel, it has far more sexual references then any other fantasy I had read as a teenage boy, in fact that may explain why I keep coming back? And it makes sense RJ wrote steamy bodice tearing novels. I do wonder would a post 50 shades WOT have seen RJ double down on certain things a lot more lol? 

But yes up until that point the only fantasy book I can think of that I had read that had sex in it was Thomas covenant, and that is a very different type of scene 

You can wonder about whatever you want, but I'm not sure how RJ could have made it clearer that sister wives aren't homosexuals other than simply stating that explicitly.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I was referring to if a wife takes a sister wife the husband has no say in it. He just gets a new wife. If I remember correctly. And nothing sexual about choosing to be sister wives rather than first sisters. Nothing at all. 

[Scarloc99]

40 minutes ago, Samt said:

I didn't anything.  No reply deserved.  

You think there are sexual undertones, or you think they will become sisters?  It's pretty clear that they are sisters, and I don't see anything in the books suggest there is an incest undertone in that.

 

In regards to non-consensual, it's not that the man can't say no.  It's that it's an all or nothing proposition.  He can decline the proposal.  He just can't chose one of the women and not the other.  There is some weirdness there, but it's neither non-consensual nor completely ridiculous.  

 

Not really.  It's just that now that homosexuality is prevalent today, lots of people read homosexuality into places it simply wasn't.  Case in point, sister wives are not homosexuals.  But now that people are reading homosexuality into things, they read it into sister wives.  

You can wonder about whatever you want, but I'm not sure how RJ could have made it clearer that sister wives aren't homosexuals other than simply stating that explicitly.  

I mean I read into it as being akin to Pillow Sisters in the tower, that and the fact that Aiel have a far more relaxed attitude to sex and physical activities then other cultures in the world it is just the next logical step. It all pretty much made sense to me. Now I will accept RJ does not explicitly state it one way or another so end of the day whatever any reader takes to be fact, is indeed fact here. 

[Samt]

33 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I was referring to if a wife takes a sister wife the husband has no say in it. He just gets a new wife. If I remember correctly. And nothing sexual about choosing to be sister wives rather than first sisters. Nothing at all. 

 

He has a say in it.  He can leave.  He just doesn't get to individually veto one of the wives and keep the other.  

 

And as far as sister wives vs. first sisters, the difference is whether or not they have a husband.  They can't choose to be "sister wives" in the absence of a shared husband.  Marriage to a common husband makes them sister wives.  

[Samt]

Those who cannot conceive Friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise or elaboration of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a Friend.

 

--CS Lewis.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

A great quote, really appropriate for women inviting other women into a polygamous relation with their husband. 

 

Why anyone would think that sex has something to do with that is beyond me. What has marriage got to do with sex? 

 

Nope totally platonic all the way. I'm so happy not everyone has a filthy mind on this forum, always thinking about sex when they should be thinking about purity. I'm sure the Aiel just assumed they would not have sex with their husband, because I mean really it is not a big deal. Though how do they get pregnant? Probably through storks. Platonic storks, that don't have genitals. 

[Samt]

49 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

A great quote, really appropriate for women inviting other women into a polygamous relation with their husband. 

 

Why anyone would think that sex has something to do with that is beyond me. What has marriage got to do with sex? 

 

Nope totally platonic all the way. I'm so happy not everyone has a filthy mind on this forum, always thinking about sex when they should be thinking about purity. I'm sure the Aiel just assumed they would not have sex with their husband, because I mean really it is not a big deal. Though how do they get pregnant? Probably through storks. Platonic storks, that don't have genitals. 

Yes, Aiel women have sex with their husbands.  And sister wives both have sex with the husband.  We're talking about whether or not the "sister-wives" have a sexual relationship with each other.  Pretty sure that has nothing to do with storks.

[SinisterDeath]

*Removed some Inflammatory Language*
Everyone shall we play nice?