tv show spoilers Darkfriends in WoT TV Series (and books by extension)

[Harad the White]

Yes. Was the Book stating/implying that the "gentling" regime was a discriminatory power play on the part of the AS? Or was it clearly in the camp that these madmen would destroy the World, not just the AS structure? If the latter, is Amazon shifting from that side?

Edited December 2, 2021 by CaddySedai

[Sabio]

There is a big history of it in the Companion, basicly it was started by the BA when they learned the Dragon had been reborn.  Which is brought up in the New Spring, where men deemed "Lucky" and around a certain age started having alot of "accidents" around the land.  Many non BA were initally tricked to join in but then Ishy put a stop to it (worried they might actually gentle the true Dragon), but some Aes Sedai continued to do it anyway.  They would just say he tried to escape or attacked them to justify killing the man or gentling him right there.  The BA also tricked Aes Sedai to kill the Amirlyn Seat who was going to put a stop to it.  The next Amirlyn did end it and the Tower covered it up so the Aes Sedai reputation wouldn't be ruined if word got out they were killing people. A few were punished but most got away with it.  So in the book at least it started as the BA trying to kill the dragon and non BA Aes Sedai willingly went along with.  Also a few Aes Sedai who opposed it would be killed and the deaths blamed on the man trying to escape.

 

So Liandrin suggesting/hinting how dangerous Logain is and why it needed to be done to a non BA Aes Sedai, is consistent with the book.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Sabio

[Harad the White]

So...if it is consistent with the Book to blame bad actors (BA) for the gentling big lie, then why do some resist the fact that neither Logain nor "Young Man" (not sure why this would be Owyn) are shown to be particularly "mad." 

[TheDreadReader]

55 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Yes. Was the Book stating/implying that the "gentling" regime was a discriminatory power play on the part of the AS? Or was it clearly in the camp that these madmen would destroy the World, not just the AS structure? If the latter, is Amazon shifting from that side?

 

In the books Moiraine and Siuan have knowledge of it from New Spring.  

 

If Amazon is shifting things, it is because they are incorporating bits of New Spring in Season 1.  That would be consistent with how BS has categorized some of the changes because they are moving some New Spring elements forward into the present day while also bringing stuff we learn latter into Season 1.

 

 

[TheDreadReader]

10 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

So...if it is consistent with the Book to blame bad actors (BA) for the gentling big lie, then why do some resist the fact that neither Logain nor "Young Man" (not sure why this would be Owyn) are shown to be particularly "mad." 

 

Well, it is muddied.  Not all the Reds that were involved were black.  For example, Elaida plays a part in exposing it but she reverses the punishment for some Red Sisters that were involved.   And, Ishy punishes the BA for their involvement too. 

 

I think generally it comes down to the BA knew that the dragon had been reborn and responded by trying to kill him early and they convinced enough reds to go along with it until they got caught.  One of the easiest ways to hide the fact that you're hunting the DR is to just go after male channelers and hope you catch the DR in that wider net. 

[Sabio]

It's also important to know that all the BA knew was the dragon had been reborn.  Moiraine knew exactly when, but the BA didn't have that knowledge.  So they didn't have a specific age to go on, so any man they  found could of been the Dragon.  

[TheDreadReader]

11 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

OK! I buy that, but a logical conclusion it that if you are punishing a group of people without a good reason, and if the punishers are corrupt, then the ones being punished are victims of injustice. This is how Amazon portrays them, so the willingness of many to say their "madness" brought it on them is misguided, at best, and collaborative at worst. The last phrase is said in jest with all the love and fellowship.

 

It is an injustice.  I think RJ meant it to be taken as one. 

 

There's a needle to thread for the show.  In most of the books, the White Tower is as much an antagonist for the the DR as it is a force for good.   How do they keep that antagonist factor in?

 

[Harad the White]

20 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

It is an injustice.  I think RJ meant it to be taken as one. 

Exactually. Even non-Book readers (see News forum for the EN reactors/reviewers) see this. Yet some "experts" here-in emphasize Logain's "madness" when as you know it's a BA ploy. Sure Saidin causes a deteriorating condition, but the BT is full of men who cope with it. The "madness" of Logain is clearly and correctly shown to be a sham, in audio-visual by Amazon.

[Harad the White]

The word "fade" does not appear in 52 pages of comments on episode 4, until NOW (maniacal laughter.)

The fade in the Book has the unnerving quality that during movements, its cloak remains stationary.  Not so much in the fight with Thom (aka Medieval Mick Jagger). Not idea how this could have been done with CGI, but apparently it was a brooch too far.

[KakitaOCU]

22 hours ago, Harad the White said:

Exactually. Even non-Book readers (see News forum for the EN reactors/reviewers) see this. Yet some "experts" here-in emphasize Logain's "madness" when as you know it's a BA ploy. Sure Saidin causes a deteriorating condition, but the BT is full of men who cope with it. The "madness" of Logain is clearly and correctly shown to be a sham, in audio-visual by Amazon.

I obviously can't speak for anyone else, but..

When I said the madness justifies the action, I wasn't talking about Reds gentling on the spot or ignoring tower law.  I was talking about the fact that Male channelers are a very real and very literal time bomb of death and destruction.  

It doesn't matter that "They're not mad yet"  They will be, there is no avoiding it.  If you channel through the taint you will go crazy, eventually lose it entirely and then rot physically.  It's painful for the channelers and dangerous to everyone around.

That specifically is why I said the Reds in general are not evil or bad, but a necessary thing in general.  What Liandrin is doing or the extra pieces are another story (at least in the point I was making).

The argument is really more "Should they be doing more to help these people after?"  Or even "Should we gentle or just let them go?"  Both issues come up in the book (The Black Tower sees it more a mercy to just let them go, Cadsuance discusses the efforts she made with various male channelers to help them after the gentling)

[Harad the White]

27 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

When I said the madness justifies the action, I wasn't talking about Reds gentling on the spot or ignoring tower law.  I was talking about the fact that Male channelers are a very real and very literal time bomb of death and destruction.  

But are they? Another way to interpret even the Book, is that a cadre of evil AS are out to get male channelers for nefarious purposes. And they use the big lies: they will go mad, they will destroy things, etc--a classic disinformation campaign. The BT was a significant collection of male channelers created to do good, and it succeeds. 

[Agitel]

9 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

But are they? Another way to interpret even the Book, is that a cadre of evil AS are out to get male channelers for nefarious purposes. And they use the big lies: they will go mad, they will destroy things, etc--a classic disinformation campaign. The BT was a significant collection of male channelers created to do good, and it succeeds. 

 

The Black Tower was founded in late fall or early winter of 999, and saidin was cleansed in early 1000. And many men were already suffering signs of madness before saidin was cleansed. If Rand didn't cleanse saidin, the Black Tower would have been highly disastrous, even if they did help during Tarmon Gaidon. The Red Ajah's founding mission to prevent another breaking is legitimate.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Agitel

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

But are they? Another way to interpret even the Book, is that a cadre of evil AS are out to get male channelers for nefarious purposes. And they use the big lies: they will go mad, they will destroy things, etc--a classic disinformation campaign. The BT was a significant collection of male channelers created to do good, and it succeeds. 

The Black Tower was created by Rand specifically to create weapons for the last battle, consequences be damned.  Admittedly Rand was already formulating a plan to cleanse Saidan but can you imagine the landscape if he hadn't had Min figure out the solution.  Even winning the last battle they likely would have had another breaking on their hands.

 

Even with Saidan cleansed the fact that the BT is considered a success has more to do with luck than not.  The Shadow had infiltrated the BT at it's very roots and nearly took it over.  Had it not been for Nynaeve curing Gentling and Egwene sending Logain there it would likely have been the largest blunder of the 3rd age.  But that is the way the Wheel weaves and the nature of Ta'varen I suppose.

[Harad the White]

Just now, Skipp said:

The Shadow had infiltrated the BT

The Shadow had infiltrated the AS at it's very root. The Shadow do what the Shadow does. 

 

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

has more to do with luck than not

Luck? That's the main force in fantasy worlds.

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

The Shadow had infiltrated the AS at it's very root. The Shadow do what the Shadow does.

The Shadow had 3000 years to worm it's way through the WT, the BT was around for barely 1 year.

 

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Luck? That's the main force in fantasy worlds.

Fact

[Harad the White]

Just now, Skipp said:

The Shadow had 3000 years to worm it's way through the WT, the BT was around for barely 1 year.

When did the BA form? The BT was formed in response to the last battle. The Dark One had to move fast. And his infiltration ultimately failed due to the fact that male channelers were not mad, destroyers but good people overcoming. 

[Elder_Haman]

40 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

But are they? Another way to interpret even the Book, is that a cadre of evil AS are out to get male channelers for nefarious purposes. And they use the big lies: they will go mad, they will destroy things, etc--a classic disinformation campaign. The BT was a significant collection of male channelers created to do good, and it succeeds. 

Nah. The taint is real. We know that. For your take to be correct invalidates the Cleansing entirely. The BT wasn't a complete success - it created Dreadlords and was Taim's launch point. And the asha'man that remain loyal were freed from the taint by the time of the Last Battle.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Nah. The taint is real. We know that. For your take to be correct invalidates the Cleansing entirely.

Nope. One could argue, correctly, that the people that overcome the 'taint including Rand are MORE heroic for doing it despite the Despite. The cleansing just puts Saidin on the same basis as Saidar. Before that Saidin was still used for good. Am I misremembering all the good that the BT did before the cleansing? 

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Nah. The taint is real. We know that. For your take to be correct invalidates the Cleansing entirely. The BT wasn't a complete success - it created Dreadlords and was Taim's launch point. And the asha'man that remain loyal were freed from the taint by the time of the Last Battle.

That's a question I always had from the books.  Would the Dreadlords have come about without the BT?  Did the pattern have Rand found the BT in order to produce the Dreadlords for the final battle?  Or would a Forsaken have done it independently if the BT was never formed?

[Agitel]

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Nope. One could argue, correctly, that the people that overcome the 'taint including Rand are MORE heroic for doing it despite the Despite. The cleansing just puts Saidin on the same basis as Saidar. Before that Saidin was still used for good. Am I misremembering all the good that the BT did before the cleansing? 

 

We're not saying the men of the Black Tower weren't heroic. We're saying that they were on a path to collectively go mad in large numbers and cause a lot of destruction and even geography changes.

[Harad the White]

Just now, Agitel said:

We're saying that they were on a path to collectively go mad in large numbers and cause a lot of destruction and even geography changes.

Evidence is always nice when there are assertions.

[Agitel]

Just now, Harad the White said:

Evidence is always nice when there are assertions.

 

I'm not sure what you're looking for here. The world was ravaged for over a century when saidin was tainted and mad men in mass used their channeling powers to reshape the earth in their fits of madness. Men who channel saidin clearly go mad over time. Many men of the Black Tower who had only been channeling for less than a year were all showing clear signs of madness that were still progressing. All hard facts. It's not an unsupported assertion to claim that 1+1+1=3. We have three ones. Therefore three.

[Agitel]

We were also told within the books that the women Aes Sedai during the Breaking were loath to sever their male counterparts. It was horrific. They tried searching for other cures and alternatives. It didn't stop them from going mad. It didn't stop them from becoming a huge danger to others. The practice of severing was only adopted after much hardship and resistance as a last resort.

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, Agitel said:

The world was ravaged for over a century when saidin was tainted and mad men in mass

And didn't the Dragon break the world? Using that reasoning all the Forces of Good should have stilled and killed Rand as soon as he was identified. The BT was instituted as a fight against the madness that succeeded despite the infiltration, and contributed to the final victory. The fact that the BA were systematically eliminating male channelers, as they understood their evil charter, should give one pause about the big lie that they were inherently mad destroyers. If so, they should have been protected and heralded by the dark forces.

[Theseus78]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

But are they? Another way to interpret even the Book, is that a cadre of evil AS are out to get male channelers for nefarious purposes. And they use the big lies: they will go mad, they will destroy things, etc--a classic disinformation campaign. The BT was a significant collection of male channelers created to do good, and it succeeds. 

Are they doing the necessary job of protecting the world from male channelers, or are they evil people who hate men?

 

The answer is, both.  There are some of each.  I can think of some modern parallels that might get drawn here.  I think it will be important to flesh out the Red (Silviana vs Liandran vs Eladia)