Accepting the Adaptation

[Zarathustra]

On 11/23/2021 at 11:48 AM, AshennaSedai said:

People not liking Nynaeve and Egwene's casting choices? Honestly, I'm sick of racists reviewing everything.

The casting choices are absurd and it's not racist to say so.  Jordan was a student of history and meticulosly crafted a world in which races were geographically separated for a reason.   Those casting choices are as ridiculous as a hypothetical 6 ft tall white woman being cast to play Tuon--a small black woman that rules Randland's version of an American Empire in which everyone has a Southern accent and has slaves that can channel.

 

 

[CaddySedai]

Let's all pump the breaks on where this is turning. Its starting to stray into territory that has gotten previous threads locked. 

 

We're not having the racist/not racist casting choices discussion yet again. Here is one of the many other threads on the topic. Just be respectful if ya do continue over there. Make it about merits not feels.

 

 

Any posts in this thread that continue to discuss it here will be deleted, and anyone who keeps making posts about it will be given warning points for not following directions.

 

This goes for both sides of the argument. Everyone go back to your corners so we can resume play ?

Edited November 28, 2021 by CaddySedai

[Harad the White]

Adaptations at best, and the WoT adaptation in particular, is the best of both (or more) worlds. For the non-readers it is an introduction to a new "reality" that they would never know about because, for example, the 4 million words in the Books were too daunting. Contrariwise, for the readers, it give us a chance to revisit that world and still not know what's coming next. Which characters and scenes will be emphasized differently than the Books? What new insights will be gained? How will x,y,z look as compared to our imaginations. WoT life is good.

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

it's a hard knock life.

Still better than irl.

[Wassup]

I have decided that I cannot just watch the series as only a WoT book fan.  There are enough changes that it can become irritating or off putting.  After finishing episode 4, I have determined that I have to watch the series as an highly educated (in regards to the background of the story) fan of the tv show. 

 

I take some perspective from the books and some perspective of a non-reader watching the show.  This way, I can understand some of what is being shown, but can also try to enjoy where it is going and how they will get to where I think they are going.  I.e., the ending of episode 4 annoyed me as a book fan because they changed some things for spectacle.  However, seeing what they are trying to do and how they are going about it, I enjoyed the ending.  So, for me, another turning of the wheel is probably the best way for me to look at, at least subconsciously.

 

I just hope this series does not inspire someone to pick up TEotW and then have them totally confused and give up on the book series because of the differences from the show.  

[Harad the White]

6 minutes ago, Wassup said:

I just hope this series does not inspire someone to pick up TEotW and then have them totally confused and give up on the book series because of the differences from the show.  

Give readers, especially readers, some modicum of intelligence. Chewing gum and walking at the same time? Glad you found a way to like the Amazon.

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

Agreed, however comma - I'm an avid reader yet I still rolled a 4 in intelligence. I have the Dark One's luck.

You fake it well.

[TheMountain]

I am enjoying the show, but at times it feels like the writers took the character names and just these extremely broad strokes:

1. Male channelers go insane.
2. Female channelers run the world.
3. Dragon is Reborn.
4. Dragon prophecized to fight the Dark One.

...and then went to town on the rest of the plot and lore. It almost seems like they are writing the story they want, then using the books merely as reference material, instead of starting from the books and saying, "how do we tell *this* story?"

There are a lot of major changes that go far above and beyond that required for a visual medium (not asking for a 1-to-1 adaptation), and there is also such a vast number of tiny changes to the lore that when taken all together and viewed from a distance, it starts to become a mountain...

Again, I am very much enjoying the show, though I do feel a sense of loss and regret over what might have been. I wish it wasn't "another turning." This is clearly not the only way one could have adapted the material successfully. In the words of one critic, it could have been a Dune-level masterpiece.

 

Ultimately, I think that this is what a lot of people are hung up on, and are in essence, mourning. Sure, it would have never lived up to the expectations/images we built up in our heads, but I think it is fair to say that it has fallen far short of that so far, and for some of us, that hurts. 

 

To enjoy the show to the fullest, as much as it pains me to say it, I think we really need to let the books go. As even Sarah said, have your mourning period, and then do your best to move on and come back to it later, you might find that you enjoy it more. Easier said than done, I know. I had already *mostly* done this prior to release, which is a big reason why I think that I was able to enjoy the advance screening as much as I did.

 

Am I still a bit bitter about it? Yes. But... I'm not going to let that ruin my enjoyment of the show, if I can help it, and I kindly suggest that you try the same.

 

In the words of Lews Therin:

 

"Take what you can have. Rejoice in what you can save, and do not mourn your losses too long."

Edited November 30, 2021 by TheMountain

[Deviations]

On 11/21/2021 at 12:15 PM, Daenelia said:

Which is why people who want to hold on to their own version should just not watch the series.

Personally, I have no issue with seeing what they did with it. I love talking about books and stories to other people and compare how each of us fills in the world differently.

Sorry to disagree.....

 

Yes I want to hang on to my version.  Yes I'm going to watch the series.

 

I get that stories are re-told.  Hollywood has re-made movies, series and adapted books.  Which version of A Christmas Carol is your favorite?  Scrooged is mine and I can't wait for the Ryan Reynolds/Will Farrell version to come out.

 

I used to visit and post on this site back when we were all trying to figure out who killed Asmodean.  We all argued about how to pronounce names and weather Jordan's writing had sexist themes...

 

The WOT adaptation is a drastic re-interpretation.  I can hate it and still want to watch it.  I can complain about it and still be addicted to it.  It's my right as an American!!!!

[Guire]

I just had to come to terms with the reality this adaptation was not made for me.  I genuinely hope they can keep it alive long enough to make it to something near the ending.  Some things I have liked better than books, other things I just find a waste of screen time.  I will keep watching as long as it's on.  I hope the target audience watches it en masse. 

[JackieQ]

On 11/21/2021 at 10:20 PM, Ellyll said:

 

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this.

The Lord of the Rings was an adaptation.

Game of Thrones was an adaptation.

 

Both of them had to make massive changes to fit their formats, yet (with the exception of the final season of GoT) stayed true to their purpouse.

This does not feel like Jordan's universe to me.
They are hamfisting in banal tropes left and right to make writing easier, and dumping a lot of the core lore in the process. Previous well loved adaptations of other stories prove that is not necessary.
 

I'm curious in what way you feel this isn't Jordan's universe? I'll admit that episode 1 (and to some extent 2) were not the greatest as far as pacing events, but I think 3, and now 4, have definitely kicked it up a lot. Episode 4, despite being the biggest deviance from the books, felt the most like the Wheel of Time to me. I'm wondering if your opinion has changed at all since the last episode aired. 

 

I feel like a lot of the changes are to serve the season's mystery of "who is the Dragon Reborn," which wasn't really a think in the books. And, honestly, I really like them and seeing non-book fans reacting! 

[Daenelia]

9 hours ago, Deviations said:

Sorry to disagree.....

 

Yes I want to hang on to my version.  Yes I'm going to watch the series.

 

I get that stories are re-told.  Hollywood has re-made movies, series and adapted books.  Which version of A Christmas Carol is your favorite?  Scrooged is mine and I can't wait for the Ryan Reynolds/Will Farrell version to come out.

 

I used to visit and post on this site back when we were all trying to figure out who killed Asmodean.  We all argued about how to pronounce names and weather Jordan's writing had sexist themes...

 

The WOT adaptation is a drastic re-interpretation.  I can hate it and still want to watch it.  I can complain about it and still be addicted to it.  It's my right as an American!!!!

I never said you had to agree with me. I am Dutch. I am actually used to people disagreeing with each oyther and still be civil. ... Are you sure you are American? ? You probably have some Dutch heritage you are not aware of. ?

[Deviations]

It's been so long since I participated here on a regular basis.  Forgive me if I'm thinking of another site...

 

Didn't there used to be a fair amount of fan fiction written on here?  Weren't there rules?  You can't have a blue eyed, blond haired borderlander...  You can't be a blademaster without the training...

 

I would be happier with a TV series that was set during the breaking or thousand year's war.  Then they could feel free to explore a myriad of paths.  

 

Anyhow, forgive my grumbling.  I had such high hopes.  

[DojoToad]

40 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Anyhow, forgive my grumbling.  I had such high hopes.  

You and me both.

[Spiritweaver1]

This topic is very interesting and I very much appreciate the diversity of opinions expressed here.  I personally know from following many TV shows through the years that it often takes a season (back when many shows were 26 episodes) to catch their stride.  I am not sure that even season two is set in cuendillar.  They may even have a contingency plan to extend the story to 10 episodes if it is a hit.   

 

 I will just outline what matters to me in the adaptation.  These are the basic personality and behaviors of the main characters.  RJ's basic philosophical/ cultural framework, for the various groups and/or nations. For example, I better see/hear about ji and toh.  I also want to see the dialog markers.    When Siuan Sanche shows up I want to hear her talking silver pike, grunters and boats.  This is an area that the show is weakest in IMHO.   The creation team can add characters or events that never happened in the book and I will still enjoy it.  But if they mess things up in the list above my enthusiasm will severely be dampened. I am still gonna celebrate my upcoming birthday by bingeing episodes 1-5 Saturday.

[DojoToad]

9 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

This topic is very interesting and I very much appreciate the diversity of opinions expressed here.  I personally know from following many TV shows through the years that it often takes a season (back when many shows were 26 episodes) to catch their stride.  I am not sure that even season two is set in cuendillar.  They may even have a contingency plan to extend the story to 10 episodes if it is a hit.   

 

 I will just outline what matters to me in the adaptation.  These are the basic personality and behaviors of the main characters.  RJ's basic philosophical/ cultural framework, for the various groups and/or nations. For example, I better see/hear about ji and toh.  I also want to see the dialog markers.    When Siuan Sanche shows up I want to hear her talking silver pike, grunters and boats.  This is an area that the show is weakest in IMHO.   The creation team can add characters or events that never happened in the book and I will still enjoy it.  But if they mess things up in the list above my enthusiasm will severely be dampened. I am still gonna celebrate my upcoming birthday by bingeing episodes 1-5 Saturday.

Hopefully you enjoy your birthday bingeing!

[ArrylT]

12 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

This topic is very interesting and I very much appreciate the diversity of opinions expressed here.  I personally know from following many TV shows through the years that it often takes a season (back when many shows were 26 episodes) to catch their stride.  I am not sure that even season two is set in cuendillar.  They may even have a contingency plan to extend the story to 10 episodes if it is a hit.   

 

 I will just outline what matters to me in the adaptation.  These are the basic personality and behaviors of the main characters.  RJ's basic philosophical/ cultural framework, for the various groups and/or nations. For example, I better see/hear about ji and toh.  I also want to see the dialog markers.    When Siuan Sanche shows up I want to hear her talking silver pike, grunters and boats.  This is an area that the show is weakest in IMHO.   The creation team can add characters or events that never happened in the book and I will still enjoy it.  But if they mess things up in the list above my enthusiasm will severely be dampened. I am still gonna celebrate my upcoming birthday by bingeing episodes 1-5 Saturday.

 

My old tongue is  very rusty so please just assume that I said Happy Birthday.   Otherwise what I type might end up coming out as "I hope you enjoy being in a cookpot". ?

Edited December 1, 2021 by ArrylT

[Harad the White]

15 hours ago, JackieQ said:

Game of Thrones was an adaptation.

 

Both of them had to make massive changes to fit their formats, yet (with the exception of the final season of GoT) stayed true to their purpouse.

Hillaryious. How does one stay true to the purpose of a writer who stopped writing before "the final season" and consulted on the HBO show? N&Ns are entertaining, if nothing else.

[Ajimbura]

Haven't read the whole thread yet but I for one can't see the series, it's just too much that have been slaughtered.

I don't want to ruin the story and characters with images and crap from the series.

 

I thought it would be hard to do the series justice with just the amount of material but I had hoped that it would get a similar treatment as LOTR and GOT.

 

Unfortunately this one went off road more or less from scene one and it just became worse and worse during the whole first episode.

When Lan and Morraine was introduced to the village I just laughed...in despair.

It was like watching one of those "mirror world" Star Trek episodes where everything is in reverse.

 

Perrin married and the killed the wife (what the heck), Egwene/Rand hook up (wth), Mat is a compulsive gambler (wth), Mat's whole family in chaos (wth) and on and on. 

 

I think they are disrespectful to the author, characters and story as a whole.

It has been injected with "the 2021 'message' of the day" in some hamfisted way to be inclusive and diverse but fail to realize that the whole series is actually diverse and inclusive.

Many races, religions/belief systems, colors, neither men or women are really more powerful than the other.

It's about what each person/group/culture/country/etc. can bring to the table.

I wonder if the writers has even read the series all the way through and the amount of plot holes they created?

 

Really flabbergasted that they read the books and this was the outcome.

It's like they read the first book and came up with the movie Kull The Conqueror.

 

Anyway, episode one will be the first and last episode I watch.

Should really have stopped after about 10min.

 

[Yojimbo]

1 hour ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

 I will just outline what matters to me in the adaptation.  These are the basic personality and behaviors of the main characters.  RJ's basic philosophical/ cultural framework, for the various groups and/or nations. For example, I better see/hear about ji and toh.  I also want to see the dialog markers.    When Siuan Sanche shows up I want to hear her talking silver pike, grunters and boats.  This is an area that the show is weakest in IMHO.   The creation team can add characters or events that never happened in the book and I will still enjoy it.  But if they mess things up in the list above my enthusiasm will severely be dampened. I am still gonna celebrate my upcoming birthday by bingeing episodes 1-5 Saturday.

I may have just missed them (my hearing is not what it was, and I may need to put on closed captions), but I am also missing things like "burn me!" and "Blood and bloody ashes!"   And Egwene calling Rand "woolhead" and Lan calling him "sheepherder".   Things like that are very important in story telling.  It gives you a sense of another world, another culture.   It's all part of the world building, and can also be part of character development, particularly for Rand because things like that keep him kind of grounded, reminding him that he is, at least to them, still just a man.   

[RhienneAgain]

36 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I may have just missed them (my hearing is not what it was, and I may need to put on closed captions), but I am also missing things like "burn me!" and "Blood and bloody ashes!"   And Egwene calling Rand "woolhead" and Lan calling him "sheepherder".   Things like that are very important in story telling.  It gives you a sense of another world, another culture.   It's all part of the world building, and can also be part of character development, particularly for Rand because things like that keep him kind of grounded, reminding him that he is, at least to them, still just a man.   

 

I so agree with this. It just pulls you out of the WoT universe when you hear the characters using our world swear words instead of the ones Jordan came up with.

 

I am finding that I am mostly ok with changes to the plot provided the way the characters act and react feels true to their book character. It's wear the character says or does something that feels like the book character would never do it that I lose my sense of immersion, like when Nynaeve said she'd thought Lan was a lapdog and he smirked in response. It just didn't feel like those words or that response would have been used by the book characters.

[Harad the White]

1 hour ago, RhienneAgain said:

like when Nynaeve said she'd thought Lan was a lapdog and he smirked in response.

Many non-book readers seem to like that in particular, as did I. You are welcome to your opinion of course, and if those words were not in the Book you are correct that it had not "been used by the book characters." It was perfect for the characters on film, imho, maybe because good dialog heard out loud, is often necessarily different than dialog read from the page. Another example, I liked was Lan's "She's not a companion. She's barely company." Was that in the Book?

[king of nowhere]

i, for one, prefer the modern swearwords

first, the old ones work on paper, but can you imagine someone actually saying them? it would be utterly ridiculous. I don't care that you're the dragon reborn and about to balefire me, if you swear like that i can't take you seriously.

second, they work in english, the language in which i read the books. i can't think of any decent italian translation. and i prefer to watch movies in italian. it would be even more cringeworthy

[Yojimbo]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

i, for one, prefer the modern swearwords

first, the old ones work on paper, but can you imagine someone actually saying them? it would be utterly ridiculous. I don't care that you're the dragon reborn and about to balefire me, if you swear like that i can't take you seriously.

second, they work in english, the language in which i read the books. i can't think of any decent italian translation. and i prefer to watch movies in italian. it would be even more cringeworthy

Actually yes, I can imagine someone saying them.  There are loads of examples of shows creating their own swear words that work really well.   It is particularly true of sci-fi shows, fans of which are a large part of the target audience for this show.

 

Two great examples are Battlestar Galactica and my personal favorite Farscape.   You hear them a few times and you get the gist of what they intend to convey.   It makes it something to talk about too, trying to figure out exactly what words they are meant to be.      

Edited December 2, 2021 by Yojimbo

[ThroneofTime]

Book and film are two different mediums and so the language one or another conveys information to the consumer will be different. I read the books and came into the series hesitant but it's pretty good television. Characters aren't exactly how I pictured them but I kind of expect that. You can tell that they came into the project with respect for the material and that's all I'm asking for. It's the exact opposite of Netflix's string of nostalgic garbage.