The Gender of the Dragon

[Elder_Haman]

23 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

For me, at least, the "She is powerful" works against the other reasons you give.   If she is powerful then she is less easily manipulated.

Why? Power doesn't necessarily equate to sophistication. They believed that Egwene was a very strong channeler who was also a backwoods bumpkin that would be easily led. They were wrong.

[KakitaOCU]

So I have a few thoughts on this.  One is simpler.  Didn't RJ say he had pondered Egwene as a Ta'veren?   I know the idea wasn't new to me when it came up in the series.  Plus the way she pulls the Tower around her fits.

Moving onto the Dragon thing.  The Dragon is still the same character, the critiques I've seen have gone so far as to believe falsely that somehow this will lead to Egwene or Nynaeve being the dragon.

Personally, there are two lines that talk to this and I think we're falling for the First Oath in both.

1: In the opening narration Moraine says (paraphrase) "we don't know if he's been born a boy or a girl."  This serves a Meta purpose of leaving the chosen one unknown to newcomers to the series.   In story.  What was the context or Moraine saying this?  Was she explaining to Siuan and unsure of who could hear her?  She doesn't factually know for sure.  She can be 99.9% certain that the Dragon is a boy, she heard the Fortelling, but she doesn't KNOW.  seems proper first oath slipperiness to keep anyone who overhears a little more in the dark.

2: "One of you four is the dragon."  again, factually true.  But since this turning of the wheel Moraine is being more honest about that part, why not include Egwene?  Doing so keeps people from immediately latching onto "Man power bad"  that some people will rush to.  Plus it gives an at the moment reason to take Egwene without having to deal with the real reason taking Egwene.

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Why? Power doesn't necessarily equate to sophistication. They believed that Egwene was a very strong channeler who was also a backwoods bumpkin that would be easily led. They were wrong.

 

The Aes Sedai tendency to show deference based on power level implies a certain "might makes right" understanding of things.   With that in mind, using power-level as a criteria doesn't have the best risk/reward ratio, imo.

 

Ultimately, it is a question of causality in terms of plotlines.   Some people see a plot hole other people don't.   Mileage often varies.  

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[Ryan al'Thor]

This discussion still?

[JenniferL]

No one is forcing you to read this. 

[Theseus78]

3 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

 

No problem, I was a little confused actually. For some reason I thought you were speaking of the ability to fully heal stilling/gentling/severing at first, since that's the only thing I recall being truly gender restricted in such a way.

And it's not gender restricted as in "men can do it fully, women partially."  It's restricted in "you can heal your own gender partially, the other gender fully."

[Theseus78]

.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Theseus78
accidental duplicate.

[flinn]

If Egwene does end up be Ta'veren, I wont be thrilled. One of the main reasons is the parallel that Egwene and Rand have throughout the series. Even with the added prologue Ravens, Egwene has more aspirations and desire. Egwene embraces her opportunities, where as Rand tends to be forced into his paths because of being Taveren. I also think it lessens Egwene's accomplishments. Will we see Egwene bending people to her will with the pattern now? Or will we see the Egwene from the books that had to use intelligence and savy to position herself and those around her?

 

 As far as the gender issue, my only thing is, for it to work, and follow what Jordan portrayed in the books, the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn would have to be the same sex. If the Dragon were female, then the taint would end up on the female half, so it would take a female to be the Dragon Reborn and deal with the insanity, which breaks down the barriers so she could connect to her memories. If the Dragon were male, the taint would be on the male side, so would require a male DR to be tainted to go insane, etc. etc.

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, flinn said:

As far as the gender issue, my only thing is, for it to work, and follow what Jordan portrayed in the books, the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn would have to be the same sex. If the Dragon were female, then the taint would end up on the female half, so it would take a female to be the Dragon Reborn and deal with the insanity, which breaks down the barriers so she could connect to her memories. If the Dragon were male, the taint would be on the male side, so would require a male DR to be tainted to go insane, etc. etc.

A thought.  What if a soul CAN be reborn either side?  What if, on different turnings of the wheel, The Dragon was a woman and got Saidar tainted?

Per word of god we know from outside context this is wrong, but I could easily see it being an interesting approach.

[flinn]

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

A thought.  What if a soul CAN be reborn either side?  What if, on different turnings of the wheel, The Dragon was a woman and got Saidar tainted?

Per word of god we know from outside context this is wrong, but I could easily see it being an interesting approach.

 Yeah that is what I am saying, there could be gender changes, but it would have to be the original Dragon.. so lets say D1-male/DR1-male  next wheel D2-female/DR2-female     the Dragon can always be different, but once that is set, the reborn has to follow suit.

[flinn]

 Just to point out, even if the gender did change on the dragon (or not) there is no way that the current Aes Sedai would know that. No one knows who the previous dragon was before Lews Therin, that is lost to time. They dont even know there was a previous dragon before Lews, that is Ishamaels theory.

[Beidomon]

The change in lore re gender of DR is an unforced error with potential major ramifications, and I’m not sure what’s worse: that the writers didn’t consider those ramifications or that they’ve embraced them (ha ha, the latter is def worse).

 

The “Rumors of 4 TV” like was idiotic. I’m less concerned about making Eg a TV. To be honest, the whole concept of TV was one of the weaker premises in WOT and basically just smacked of plot convenience. I’m a little disappointed they are leaning so heavily into this concept in the show. 

[KakitaOCU]

13 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

The change in lore re gender of DR is an unforced error with potential major ramifications, and I’m not sure what’s worse: that the writers didn’t consider those ramifications or that they’ve embraced them (ha ha, the latter is def worse).

 

The “Rumors of 4 TV” like was idiotic. I’m less concerned about making Eg a TV. To be honest, the whole concept of TV was one of the weaker premises in WOT and basically just smacked of plot convenience. I’m a little disappointed they are leaning so heavily into this concept in the show. 

What changes in lore?

I gave an easy explanation on how Moraine was using the first oath creatively.  That aside there's also the reality that Moraine's knowledge is not the level of the omnipresent author god that was RJ.  WE know gender is tied to soul in WoT.  The Heroes know it maybe.  Moraine can be honestly mistaken.

Either way, the dragon is going to be the dragon.

As for the fourth Ta'veren...  I actually like the change purely because it makes her make sense.  Without goin into spoilers suffice to say that Egwene succeeds and triumphs at virtually every single thing she tries to learn and she does so in months when others take years or more.  Her being ta'veren would help some of that.

[Beidomon]

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

What changes in lore?

 

The prophesy says the DR has a wang. And that’s kind of important that the DR is prophesied to have to wield Saidin.
 

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I gave an easy explanation on how Moraine was using the first oath creatively.  That aside there's also the reality that Moraine's knowledge is not the level of the omnipresent author god that was RJ.  WE know gender is tied to soul in WoT.  The Heroes know it maybe.  Moraine can be honestly mistaken.

 

So, no matter what mental gymnastics you execute to get around what Mo said, Rafe is quite clear in a recent interview that they deliberately made that change. 

 

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Either way, the dragon is going to be the dragon.

 

 

Yes…. except that they changed the lore. Not gonna rebeat that horse as to why that matters. 

 

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

As for the fourth Ta'veren...  I actually like the change purely because it makes her make sense.  Without goin into spoilers suffice to say that Egwene succeeds and triumphs at virtually every single thing she tries to learn and she does so in months when others take years or more.  Her being ta'veren would help some of that.

I’ve read the series. And hence the plot convenience.

[Gothic Flame]

12 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

As for the fourth Ta'veren...  I actually like the change purely because it makes her make sense.  Without goin into spoilers suffice to say that Egwene succeeds and triumphs at virtually every single thing she tries to learn and she does so in months when others take years or more.  Her being ta'veren would help some of that.

Egwene didn't need to be ta'veren. She just needed to be herself. Making her a ta'veren just takes that away. Her experiences and trials made her stronger. It's very much an Aiel way to gain honor. To think she needs to be ta'veren..is a crutch and cheapens her.

[Ryan al'Thor]

9 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Egwene didn't need to be ta'veren. She just needed to be herself. Making her a ta'veren just takes that away. Her experiences and trials made her stronger. It's very much an Aiel way to gain honor. To think she needs to be ta'veren..is a crutch and cheapens her.

Nailed it

[MasterAblar]

45 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

What changes in lore?

I gave an easy explanation on how Moraine was using the first oath creatively.  That aside there's also the reality that Moraine's knowledge is not the level of the omnipresent author god that was RJ.  WE know gender is tied to soul in WoT.  The Heroes know it maybe.  Moraine can be honestly mistaken.
 

 

Rafe has said straight out they changed it so it isn't tied to the soul anymore. That being said I agree we don't really know, whether in the books or the series how much character actually know about reincarnation. The Dragon Reborn is unique because it the prophecized rebirth of one particular soul. For everyone else everything goes evidently.

[KakitaOCU]

5 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

Egwene didn't need to be ta'veren. She just needed to be herself. Making her a ta'veren just takes that away. Her experiences and trials made her stronger. It's very much an Aiel way to gain honor. To think she needs to be ta'veren..is a crutch and cheapens her.

The flaw there in is that if it's not Ta'Veren, she is some super hybrid of perfect at everything but healing.  I'm not saying it takes a crutch, I'm saying several things she does do not function without plot armor.
 

Spoiler

She learns to channel as well as any Aes Sedai in a few months when most Sisters spent 20 years.  We talk that off with Forcing in book.

She decides she wants to learn about Aiel Culture and picks up nuance in the course of another few months that the native born people learn over their entire childhood.  I've watched actual real life conmen and professional speakers who can't just pick up a new culture in a few months.

She picks up dreaming faster than the wise ones can teach.  This could be another form of Forcing, and again we get in world justification with how fast Perrin learns.

Once she's thrust into being Amyrlin she learns politics in a course of weeks and starts pulling things that impress Siuan who's spent decades honing her art.   Like the Aiel, this doesn't happen save by "I'm the main character"

After that she learns to make Cuellindar off screen before getting captured and perfectly winning over every single sister she comes in contact with.  Again, not likely or reasonable.  EVERY sitter thinks she's wonderful by the end of it.

Keep in mind, I don't mind her character or find anything wrong with it in the scope of the story, but her being Ta'Veren would explain at least some of it as something other than "She's just perfect at everything she tries"

 

[ArrylT]

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills

 

Spoiler

 

 

In the end it is, I believe, canon that there are only 3 ta'veren.

 

However if with the "aging" up aspect of Egwene AND if Rand Al'Thor being the ta'veren of ta'veren forced the creation of Perrin & Mat as ta'veren, an argument could logically be made that therefore Egwene could be too by that.  IE since she is now the same age ... 

 

In the end I do not think she is. 

 

Spoiler

And we know in the book she was not - although I agree that the writing makes her feel like a ta'veren at times

 

I treat this line of 4 ta'veren as that the eyes & ears of the Blue Ajah sending reports of what they thought might be ta'veren to Moiraine so Moiraine thinks it is possible that there could be 4 - thus her comment, with the key word being rumour - so she is not lying - but we'll find out eventually there may not be.

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by ArrylT

[Gothic Flame]

6 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

The flaw there in is that if it's not Ta'Veren, she is some super hybrid of perfect at everything but healing.  I'm not saying it takes a crutch, I'm saying several things she does do not function without plot armor.
 

  Hide contents

She learns to channel as well as any Aes Sedai in a few months when most Sisters spent 20 years.  We talk that off with Forcing in book.

She decides she wants to learn about Aiel Culture and picks up nuance in the course of another few months that the native born people learn over their entire childhood.  I've watched actual real life conmen and professional speakers who can't just pick up a new culture in a few months.

She picks up dreaming faster than the wise ones can teach.  This could be another form of Forcing, and again we get in world justification with how fast Perrin learns.

Once she's thrust into being Amyrlin she learns politics in a course of weeks and starts pulling things that impress Siuan who's spent decades honing her art.   Like the Aiel, this doesn't happen save by "I'm the main character"

After that she learns to make Cuellindar off screen before getting captured and perfectly winning over every single sister she comes in contact with.  Again, not likely or reasonable.  EVERY sitter thinks she's wonderful by the end of it.

Keep in mind, I don't mind her character or find anything wrong with it in the scope of the story, but her being Ta'Veren would explain at least some of it as something other than "She's just perfect at everything she tries"

 

No...no...and no.

Spoiler

You're disregarding a lot about her; the experiences both bad and good that shape her; her natural abilities such as her intellect and leadership which not only enable her problem-solving, but shows her the best direction for her life to go; and then there's her Talent for Dreaming. She was hungry for more knowledge about it...and the World of Dreams. And recognized that the greatest teachers were the Wise Ones. Apprenticing herself was a forgone conclusion in that arc. The one word that ties this all up in one neat bow is "foresight," and I'm not talking about the prophetic ability. She takes all the factors in her life and sees the best path forward. This codifies into her decisions for the White Tower. Among those decisions was the agreement between Wise Ones, Windfinders, and Aes Sedai for apprenticeships. She saw her experience with her time in the Waste as an enormous boon...not just in learning about Dreaming, but in learning to be a Wise One and their culture of honor. Add in her decision to keep the "Knitting Circle" around we have a White Tower that is connected to all women that can channel. Her death can be seen as a symbol of apotheosis; the Amyrlin Seat is the White Flame of Tar Valon. And the White Tower will enlighten the world with it.

That she can stand among the three ta'veren that change the world proves that you never need to be ta'veren to be great.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Gothic Flame
Spelling

[MasterAblar]

Egwene had a ton of guidance from experts in basically every field she went into: Siuan held her hand through a whole lot, the Wise Ones were the best teachers she could have for dreamwalking and even then she was hardly a master, as evidenced by both Perrin and the Wise Ones in Towers of Midnight. The Ajah heads were impressed by her resilience and sense of self sacrifice, not to mention her defense of the White Tower. After dealing with Elaida it’s not surprising she would look good in comparison. And on top of all that her considerable natural talent. When you look at what she excels at (politics, dreamwalking, fighting), it matches to what she got extreme training in.

 

Yes she achieves a ton, but youth isn’t necessarily a barrier that. You have plenty of people in real life who excelled at staggeringly young ages.

 

Besides being ta’veren doesn’t mean you excel at everything it just means the pattern spins you out as a correcting mechanism, and the surrounding threads are pulled to them. None of that describes Egwene. She didn’t warp luck in obscene ways like Mat, or have people follow her for seemingly no reason like Perrin, or all the madness that happens around Rand.

Edited November 24, 2021 by MasterAblar

[KakitaOCU]

2 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

Besides being ta’veren doesn’t mean you excel at everything it just means the pattern spins you out as a correcting mechanism, and the surrounding threads are pulled to them. None of that describes Egwene. She didn’t warp luck in obscene ways like Mat, or have people follow her for seemingly no reason like Perrin, or all the madness that happens around Rand.

I was specifically saying Ta'Veren would better explain her success in the field of politics and assimilating seamlessly into other cultures.  IE, the people respond in ways not normally expected.

Which let's be fair, is exactly like what will happen to Perrin.  Except instead of down to earth people who KNOW Perrin listening to him it's very set in their ways people with an active habit of ignoring people like Egwene listening to her.

[AshennaSedai]

18 hours ago, Beidomon said:

 

The prophesy says the DR has a wang. And that’s kind of important that the DR is prophesied to have to wield Saidin.

 

And yet in the books there was a plot point where a Balthamel was reborn into a woman's body and still wielded Saidin. It is not one's body that determines the side of the One Power they wield, but their spirit.

[Elder_Haman]

So we can officially put this whole "female Dragon" thing to rest. Rafe answered the question.

 

 

Thread now closed and locked!