The Gender of the Dragon

[JenniferL]

This conversation seems to be taking place in multiple threads. Let’s put it here so it’s easier to track. 
 

So, this is a disagreement at my house. My husband likes that Egwene is elevated because as the novels progress she becomes the co-lead of the series. He thinks that having her be Taveren makes sense because events seem to turn around her as much as the three boys. 
 

I disagree. Three Taveren has a deep mythological significance and the three boys are developed in specific ways that reflect their relationship to the Pattern that Egwene is not. It’s not a dealbreaker for me but I just don’t think this was a necessary change. 

[DojoToad]

Agreed.  I think the boys need the taveren edge as they have no larger organization behind them (other than what they build themselves - though the Aiel for Rand did come ready-made)

 

Egwene - though I agree becomes the co-lead after the tower is reunited, she has the might of the Aes Sedai behind her.  She needs no further aids

[MasterAblar]

Honestly I'm more bothered by the Ta'verren issue than the Dragon Reborn one. The second is a bit grating, but if they actually do something with then I won't mind as much. It's a much bigger lore change but it's also one that basically doesn't affect the story. I'm mainly worried that they won't have covered every instance where it would be inconsistent with the world as is but we'll see.

 

The Ta'verren bit though I really don't like. Not only is their a strong significance to the three boys being Ta'verren, linking them together throughout the story all the way back to their births being so close together they were all potential DR, but it also just doesn't fit with Egwene's character I feel.

 

All three of the boys had to be forced to accept their place and their path in the story. Egwene instead threw herself at every challenge, every opportunity, and every responsibilty. And while obviously she's a massive part of the story, I don't actually feel that events turn around her. Indeed I don't believe she was key to winning the last battle. But without her the victory would have had a cost so great it would have ended up a hollow and pyrrhic victory. She was important not because the wheel forced her into an important position but because she chose to pursue it and embrace that role. Her being ta'verren really weakens her character in that sense to me.

[SinisterDeath]

42 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

I disagree. Three Taveren has a deep mythological significance and the three boys are developed in specific ways that reflect their relationship to the Pattern that Egwene is not. It’s not a dealbreaker for me but I just don’t think this was a necessary change. 

You're not wrong about the trinity symbolism. We could see the trinity maintained as Rand/Mat/Perrin's pull and color swirls happens, while Egwenes just off doin' her own thing.

Perhaps Moiraine had bad information, and Egwene isn't Ta'varen, but her proximity perpetuated those rumors?

Perhaps, Nynaeve is the Ta'Varen brought to the two rivers because the pattern needed a Fierce mama bear?

 

If they do 100% keep the 4 ta'varen, I guess we could equate them to the 4 seasons.

Summer - Rand

Winter - Egwene

Fall - Mat

Road Construction - Perrin.

[MasterAblar]

I still can't get over that "4ta'verren line". I'm trying to think of some way to justify that, of someone who would have spread the rumours, despite them being baseless (at that time), or something but I just can't come up with anything.

 

They could have Egwene as the +1 as you say but outside of the trio but that feels pretty cheap to be honest.

[Reader]

After the potential female dragon change, I'm not that bothered about Egwene being ta'veren.  Uniting the divided tower sounds kind of ta'vereny work, and she's one of the few who can stand up to Rand's ta'vereny powers when he drops in to visit.

 

I still think the DR change was a mistake, but it's not going to spoil my enjoyment of the show.  Do we know if Birgitte has been cast yet, and if so whether it is a male or female actor for this turning of the wheel?

Edited November 23, 2021 by Reader
typo

[Reader]

There again, maybe Bela's the 4th ta'veren

[Daenelia]

Way too early to tell, for me.

 

It's like trying to guess the pattern on a cloth that is still being woven... on a loom ... with all the threads. That's why weaving is such a skill. You need to be able to look forward without seeing the pattern in front of you.

 

There may be red herrings, or changes, or shortcuts that will push the story where it needs to go to make sense in the larger scheme.

 

I always thought Egwene had to be a little Ta'veren. But I am also open to the idea that Moraine just was mistaken.

[mogi68]

There was a line (I think in TEOTW) where Moiraine says that Egwene and Nynaeve "may not be ta'veren, but strong nonetheless". Or something of the sort

Edited November 23, 2021 by mogi68

[Agitel]

I'm divided on the ta'veren question. There is something about Egwene just inserting herself on her own, not being dragged out. She's unlike the boys because she wants to go and see the world and learn all she can. She's not being hunted. She could have stayed. But that's not Egwene.

[AshennaSedai]

1 hour ago, JenniferL said:

This conversation seems to be taking place in multiple threads. Let’s put it here so it’s easier to track. 
 

So, this is a disagreement at my house. My husband likes that Egwene is elevated because as the novels progress she becomes the co-lead of the series. He thinks that having her be Taveren makes sense because events seem to turn around her as much as the three boys. 
 

I disagree. Three Taveren has a deep mythological significance and the three boys are developed in specific ways that reflect their relationship to the Pattern that Egwene is not. It’s not a dealbreaker for me but I just don’t think this was a necessary change. 

Was it necessary? It's hard to say, however like you it's nowhere near a dealbreaker for me.

 

I totally get that 3 Ta'Veren has mythological significance in the books, but I certainly don't see it undermining much if anything.

Edited November 23, 2021 by AshennaSedai

[Agitel]

Jordan took inspiration from Tyr (Rand), Odin (Mat), and Thor (Perrin) for the three boys. I wonder if Egwene maps to any Norse myth. 

 

Her name is also a reference to Arthurian legend. Egwene al'Vere  > Guinevere.

[JenniferL]

I harp on the mythological references because that’s one of the things that sets Wheel of Time apart from other fantasy stories. It digs deep into archetypes, legends and myths to create something different but still deeply resonate. The show has demonstrated in other ways that Rafe understands this, so I’m not going to complain too much about this choice. 

[WhiteVeils]

Like, say, Frigg, spinning the weaving of time?  Goddess of foresight and motherhood.  Who is sometimes interchangable with Freyha, goddess of love, battle, and death, who travels with a boar with bristles of gold?

Edited November 23, 2021 by WhiteVeils

[Agitel]

9 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Like, say, Frigg, spinning the weaving of time?  Goddess of foresight and motherhood.  Who is sometimes interchangable with Freyha, goddess of love, battle, and death, who travels with a boar with bristles of gold?

 

The boar referenc with Freya be spot on. I need to look into that.

[DaddyFinn]

I hope she won't be a Ta'veren. In the title sequence the threads got golden as soon as Josha's name appeared on screen and continued on for a while after Marcus and Barney had also appeared. Madeleine was the last one just before the white thread snapped in half (foreshadowing??).

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[TheMountain]

I'm still deeply annoyed at the ridiculous "rumors of four Ta'veren in the Two Rivers" line lol

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, JenniferL said:

 

So, this is a disagreement at my house. My husband likes that Egwene is elevated because as the novels progress she becomes the co-lead of the series. He thinks that having her be Taveren makes sense because events seem to turn around her as much as the three boys. 
 

 

I probably fall more on your husband's side on this one.   For a long time, I've seen Egwene in the early books as a character that is along for the ride in the early books.   Yes, she takes the opportunity to learn and develop when she gets them but the only reason she has those opportunities is because the R-M-P focus carries her to them.   Changing R-M-P to R-M-P-E from the start lays a better foundation for her later development in my mind as it puts her on equal footing from the start.

 

Contrast that with Nyneave's reasons for leaving, which are always distinct from both R-M-P and R-M-P-E's reasons.  Her reasons stand on their own.  She has more agency in deciding to go.   The show could have gone down the road of having Egwene leave with Nyneave.   I would have actually liked that more but that might fall into the slighty-too-big-change-from-the-books pile.  For me, changing that would have laid the best foundation for what she does latter in a way that is always different from the boys.

 

But, that's a what is better/best kind of view and not really an either/or one.

 

One thing that I am really pleasantly surprised at is how the writers have managed to give Egwene consequences for her decision(s) already.   It adds a good bit of subtextual emotional conflict to her character.  I will be really interested to see if they keep that up or forget about it as the season(s) progress.

 

Giving her consequences for actions highlights one of the risks of implementing the gender dynamics that RJ crafted.   Within the world that RJ constructed privilege works differently.  The world would logical develop a 'female privilege' that stands in contrast to our worlds tendency towards 'male privilege'.   As readers there will always be a little cognitive dissonance around that factor.  

 

 

 

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, Reader said:

After the potential female dragon change, I'm not that bothered about Egwene being ta'veren.  Uniting the divided tower sounds kind of ta'vereny work, and she's one of the few who can stand up to Rand's ta'vereny powers when he drops in to visit.

 

I still think the DR change was a mistake, but it's not going to spoil my enjoyment of the show.  Do we know if Birgitte has been cast yet, and if so whether it is a male or female actor for this turning of the wheel?

Changing Brigitte would be weird since she’s specially for the being the 1st and so far only exemple of a same sex Aes Sedai - Warded pairing.

 

I tend to think that Egwene resisted Rand’s ta’verren influence specifically because the pattern wanted her to, not due to something innate about her but that’s just me.

[Gothic Flame]

An Amyrlin Seat doesn't need to be ta'veren to unite the White Tower. She is the White Tower.

Rhetoric aside, making her a ta'veren tells me Rafe doesn't understand the strength of her character...her persona that she shows throughout the books, going from this small town naif, all so very trusting of Aes Sedai, to a collared slave, breaking through that, to be an apprentice wise one, to eventually becoming one of the most powerful women in the world. Making her a ta'veren is a crutch for the likes of her, making her less than she is.

[AdamA]

I have no clue what the point of making Egwene ta'veren is. Unless it ends up entailing actual changes to her personal plot, it's a no-op. Until her plot actually changes, I'm perfectly willing to just ignore this and it makes no difference.

 

I get the feeling the Dragon gender thing is going to end up being similar. They mention it can be a woman to present less of a strict binary to appease contemporary sensibilities, but I'm not sure they'll really do anything with the way the underlying magic system really works. I guess we'll see, but that was my biggest concern because I can't see how they manage to pull that off in a way that stays internally consistent. I'm half expecting them at this point to just keep things the way they already are with respect to why the breaking happened, why the original Aes Sedai were split, what the motivation for touching the True Power was, in a way that doesn't break the lore, and then just ignore the fact that this makes the idea of a female Dragon nonsense by never actually presenting a female Dragon as a reality. It'll end up just being a plot hole that the show will never address, but most viewers who aren't here discussing this right now as prior book readers will never notice or care. And the writers figured that tradeoff was worth it.

 

But we'll see. Maybe they really do manage to rewrite all the lore and backstory in a way that still makes sense.

[TheMountain]

How can there possibly be "rumors of four Ta'veren in the Two Rivers?" I can deal with Egwene being Ta'veren, but this line irks me to no end, it makes no sense. In one of his comments on Reddit, Brandon Sanderson said that the line wasn't in the script that he reviewed and that they must have added it later. If he had, I'm sure he would have raised it as a potential logical inconsistency. Do you think we're going to get an explanation for this later? Is this a throwaway line that was added that the writers didn't really think about? Do you disagree and think it actually works? Would love to hear your guys thoughts on this.

 

I'm really enjoying the series so far, but man, this line is just a thorn in my side... I can't let it go lol.

 

EDIT:

Did I accidentally post in this thread, or was it merged? I wasn't talking about the Dragon's gender so I didn't think it belonged here.

Edited November 23, 2021 by TheMountain

[AshennaSedai]

49 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

An Amyrlin Seat doesn't need to be ta'veren to unite the White Tower.

 

The phrasing on this is key and you may not have meant it that way. She doesn't need to be ta'veren but that doesn't mean that it's something that would never happen. It's absolutely plausible still for Egwene to be ta'veren.

[MasterAblar]

19 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

How can there possibly be "rumors of four Ta'veren in the Two Rivers?" I can deal with Egwene being Ta'veren, but this line irks me to no end, it makes no sense. In one of his comments on Reddit, Brandon Sanderson said that the line wasn't in the script that he reviewed and that they must have added it later. If he had, I'm sure he would have raised it as a potential logical inconsistency. Do you think we're going to get an explanation for this later? Is this a throwaway line that was added that the writers didn't really think about? Do you disagree and think it actually works? Would love to hear your guys thoughts on this.

 

I'm really enjoying the series so far, but man, this line is just a thorn in my side... I can't let it go lol.

Honestly I’m thinking they just put it in there in order to justify Moiraine turning up in the Two Rivers, assuming they’ve definitely removed the part of Gitara’s foretelling that predicted the birth specifically on Dragonmount.

 

It’s a line that I find very frustrating as a reader because it makes no sense, but for tv viewers it’s meaningless because they don’t bother explaining what a Ta’verren is, and by the time it will be explained most people won’t be thinking back to that line and wondering about the inconsistency. 

[TheMountain]

5 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

It’s a line that I find very frustrating as a reader because it makes no sense, but for tv viewers it’s meaningless because they don’t bother explaining what a Ta’verren is, and by the time it will be explained most people won’t be thinking back to that line and wondering about the inconsistency. 

 

I can suspend my disbelief with magic, trollocs, and Fades, as long as everything is internally consistent within the story. I have a really hard time with blatant inconsistencies and "suspension of logic" though. I tend to stop watching shows that do this too much... but as a WoT fan, I will struggle past it.

 

To me, this is clearly a case where everything was NOT "fully thought through," to put it in the words of Sarah lol.

Edited November 23, 2021 by TheMountain