Dana

[Ryan al'Thor]

11 hours ago, Maximillion said:

Some of those scenes were quite good, but the Terminator chase down the street was ridiculous. 

In reality the sword would have probably been a bit too heavy for her and Mat and Rand would have waited for her, overpowered her and taken the sword off her.

 

Possibly the worst sequence in the series. Rand AND Mat running from a girl with a sword. Cmon Rafe. All said, i cant wait for next episode.

[flinn]

 I actually love all this "running from a girl with a sword" talk. Are you kidding me? Piss off a woman, hand her a sword that is razor sharp (it was Tam's sword she was carrying) and show me how you just take it away from her. I want a video of it. Neither Mat nor Rand are trained sword fighters to disarm her, and I am willing to bet even with training any of you saying that stuff would get sliced to all hell if a "girl" had a razor sharp sword with the will and intent to use it.

[king of nowhere]

13 hours ago, Maximillion said:

 

He tried to smash down a door to run away and was terrified of a small woman, whilst fought for his life against an 8ft Trolloc. IMO, it was not realistic.  He would have simply overpowered her before she ever got hold of the sword and even then would have simply taken it off her.

 

 

do you have an idea how difficult it would be to disarm someone of a sword in real life?

the sword gives them reach, meaning they get a full swing before you can get close enough to attack them. without much force to the blow, it's unlikely to kill immediately, but it's still likely to deal a wound that will kill you eventually.

if you had something to parry, it would already make a huge difference.

every self-defence expert teaching techniques to disarm an opponent of a knife will tell you that none of that is 100% guaranteed to work, and that if possible, it's better to run.

and a sword, with longer reach, is much, much harder than a knife.

 

granted, he could have overpowered her before she took the sword, but he was surprised and slow to react. there's nothing unrealistic in being surprised that the girl who was flirting with you a moment earlier suddenly grabbed a sword. nor is there anything unrealistic in being afraid of an armed opponent while unarmed.

Edited November 22, 2021 by king of nowhere

[Maximillion]

On 11/22/2021 at 1:47 AM, king of nowhere said:

do you have an idea how difficult it would be to disarm someone of a sword in real life?

the sword gives them reach, meaning they get a full swing before you can get close enough to attack them. without much force to the blow, it's unlikely to kill immediately, but it's still likely to deal a wound that will kill you eventually.

if you had something to parry, it would already make a huge difference.

every self-defence expert teaching techniques to disarm an opponent of a knife will tell you that none of that is 100% guaranteed to work, and that if possible, it's better to run.

and a sword, with longer reach, is much, much harder than a knife.

 

granted, he could have overpowered her before she took the sword, but he was surprised and slow to react. there's nothing unrealistic in being surprised that the girl who was flirting with you a moment earlier suddenly grabbed a sword. nor is there anything unrealistic in being afraid of an armed opponent while unarmed.

 

 

The problem is though that the show is not consistent in that respect.

I have read here that because she had the sword Rand could not have done anything but run and could not have dodged any attack, yet in episode 1 an 8ft Trolloc with a sword attacked Nynaeve and she stopped to let out a battle cry signalling her intent, then dodged all the swings/blows, got inside the attack and managed to actually stab the Trolloc to the gut multiple times, cleared away and then dodged other blows.

 

So a 5ft barmaid with a sword is untouchable by a 6ft plus male, but a 5ft 6 woman can out move and evade an 8ft Trolloc with a sword?

 

Once Rand and Dana were at close quarters and struggling for the sword it was over - Rand would have overpowered her if the show had been realistic in that regard.  There would be no chance for Dana to gain the advantage she did.

 

I just find these representations to be a bit silly and unrealistic.

 

 

 

[notpropaganda73]

34 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

The problem is though that the show is not consistent in that respect.

I have read here that because she had the sword Rand could not have done anything but run and could not have dodged any attack, yet in episode 1 an 8ft Trolloc with a sword attacked Nynaeve and she stopped to let out a battle cry signalling her intent, then dodged all the swings/blows, got inside the attack and managed to actually stab the Trolloc to the gut multiple times, cleared away and then dodged other blows.

 

So a 5ft barmaid with a sword is untouchable by a 6ft plus male, but a 5ft 6 woman can out move and evade an 8ft Trolloc with a sword?

 

Once Rand and Dana were at close quarters and struggling for the sword it was over - Rand would have overpowered her if the show had been realistic in that regard.  There would be no chance for Dana to gain the advantage she did.

 

I just find these representations to be a bit silly and unrealistic.

 

First of all, how on earth are you gleaning all of that from the brief encounter Nynaeve has with that Trolloc, never mind the fact that her and Egwene are about to be killed until Moiraine's weave saves them? Secondly, Nynaeve holding out her knife and shouting at the Trolloc is absolutely in character for her. She dodged ONE BLOW, managed to stab the Trolloc and then gets flung away, Egwene breaks a chair or something on the Trolloc and also gets whacked, and then they are both defeated and about to be killed. You're making it sound like she skillfully slashed at the Trolloc (like Tam did in his encounter) without being defeated.

 

Rand as a character would never attack a woman, especially at this stage in his development. Even if he had managed to get to the sword before Dana, it would absolutely be in his character to have somehow ended up being tricked out of the sword by her. He would never, ever have stabbed her. Not a hope. It's not so much that Rand "could not have done anything but run" once she had the sword, but more that Rand would *only* run in that situation, especially so early in his journey. 

 

Dana running after them with the sword was an awful addition, to be clear, compared to what was a great set up for her as a Darkfriend and I enjoyed her monologue as well. But the chase was ridiculous, without a doubt. 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by notpropaganda73
removed unnecessary section

[Gothic Flame]

If she's experienced...and has the endurance and strength to run with a few pounds on her arm...because that's a workout in itself. And she has to be able to skillfully fight after that. Not impossible I suppose...for an Aiel. 

[Maximillion]

5 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

First of all, how on earth are you gleaning all of that from the brief encounter Nynaeve has with that Trolloc, never mind the fact that her and Egwene are about to be killed until Moiraine's weave saves them? Secondly, Nynaeve holding out her knife and shouting at the Trolloc is absolutely in character for her. She dodged ONE BLOW, managed to stab the Trolloc and then gets flung away, Egwene breaks a chair or something on the Trolloc and also gets whacked, and then they are both defeated and about to be killed. You're making it sound like she skillfully slashed at the Trolloc (like Tam did in his encounter) without being defeated.

 

Rand as a character would never attack a woman, especially at this stage in his development. Even if he had managed to get to the sword before Dana, it would absolutely be in his character to have somehow ended up being tricked out of the sword by her. He would never, ever have stabbed her. Not a hope. It's not so much that Rand "could not have done anything but run" once she had the sword, but more that Rand would *only* run in that situation, especially so early in his journey. 

 

Dana running after them with the sword was an awful addition, to be clear, compared to what was a great set up for her as a Darkfriend and I enjoyed her monologue as well. But the chase was ridiculous, without a doubt. 

 

 

Yes, the battle cry might be in character.  She actually dodged FOUR separate swings of the sword, something that has been said on this thread is almost impossible to do.  In the process of that she managed to stab the Trolloc 3 or 4 times. She fought about as well, maybe better, than Tam did.

Meanwhile Rand is clawing at a door when faced with a 5ft woman he thinks means to kill him, having already fought for his life against a Trolloc and got easily thrown to the ground.

 

 

 

[MasterAblar]

Trolloc is gonna kill Nyneave and Egwene. They fight back because they don’t have a choice, they’re cornered. If they could have run they would have. 
 

Rand is at sword point but Dana wasn’t trying to kill him so why would he fling himself at someone when it might easily lead to him getting skewered?

 

Sounds to me like people are more bothered by how the characters come across to viewers then about the actual logic in their decisions.

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, Maximillion said:

Rand would have overpowered her if the show had been realistic in that regard.

Rand and hurting women don't exactly go hand in hand

[Maximillion]

42 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Trolloc is gonna kill Nyneave and Egwene. They fight back because they don’t have a choice, they’re cornered. If they could have run they would have. 
 

Rand is at sword point but Dana wasn’t trying to kill him so why would he fling himself at someone when it might easily lead to him getting skewered?

 

Sounds to me like people are more bothered by how the characters come across to viewers then about the actual logic in their decisions.

 

I think it's more to do with how characters are being turned into something they are not  - or could never be - for quite superficial purposes.  Nynaeve has been made action woman, warrior princess and Wonder Woman rolled into one. Dana was a female terminator - that chase scene was ridiculous. I have watched the show a few times now and it still makes me laugh every time.

I don't really have a problem if Rafe decided to make a core of the TV adaptation an emphasis on female empowerment.  Having watched the show back there are many many examples I didn't spot first time around that reverse stereotypical representations of gender - that's OK,  but some of the representations are just poorly done and quite formulaic IMO, suspending reality for modern day tropes.  Nynaeve's character is a mess as was Dana's.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Maximillion

[MasterAblar]

The thing with Nyneave is we never know what she did during the attack on Emond's field in the books. The whole thing is off screen. Is it really hard to believe that she would defend herself when faced with mortal danger? Ultimately when face to face with a trolloc she got bashed against a wall and would have died without Moiraine. And when one had it's back to her she stabbed it. None of that exactly screams what you're claiming she's been made to be. In the books Nyneave constantly thinks of herself as a coward, but outwardly acts heroic. I hope we get signs of the first part as well as confirmation of the second.

 

The focus on Nyneave is odd to me because in the books none of the Two River character do much fighting at first. Lan and Moiraine pretty much clear the way for them at every turn. We have no idea what Perrin and Mat were up to in the attack on Emond's field, but in the show Perrin viciously defends himself, and Mat heroically charges through the carnage to find his sisters. This never happened in the books but it doesn't bother anyone. Because based on what we know of the characters in the books, it isn't inconsistent for them to act this way in the show (despite a few changes). And it isn't inconsistent either for Nyneave to fight back. Hell she charged at Aginor when Lan was flung aside!

 

The only thing that I've foudn meh so far with Nyneave was her getting a sword under Lan's throat, but that's far more a Lan issue than a Nyneave issue.

Edited November 24, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Agitel]

1 hour ago, Maximillion said:

 

Yes, the battle cry might be in character.  She actually dodged FOUR separate swings of the sword, something that has been said on this thread is almost impossible to do.  In the process of that she managed to stab the Trolloc 3 or 4 times. She fought about as well, maybe better, than Tam did.

Meanwhile Rand is clawing at a door when faced with a 5ft woman he thinks means to kill him, having already fought for his life against a Trolloc and got easily thrown to the ground.

 

 

 

 

Nynaeve was cornered and under attack. Rand was not and didn't reach last resort stage because Thom stepped in. 

 

Unarmed people don't just go around trying to disarm people with swords. It doesn't take a lot of force to rip through skin, and it's extremely dangerous. Nynaeve didn't go hunting trollocs. She ran until she had nowhere else to go.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Agitel

[Maximillion]

11 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

Nynaeve was cornered. Rand was not (until the end) and didn't reach last resort stage because Thom stepped in. 

 

Unarmed people don't just go around trying to disarm people with swords. It doesn't take a lot of force to rip through skin, and it's extremely dangerous. Nynaeve didn't go hunting trollocs. She ran until she had nowhere else to go.

 

Rand was cornered - he was in a room with a locked door.

He panicked and turned his back on the person with the sword in a small room who he thought was going to kill him in order to try and smash his way through the door.

He basically crapped his pants and had no control of himself.  His character was turned into a gibbering wreck at the sight of clear and present danger.

Egwene was cornered by a monster - her fight or flight response was to roar and launch into hand to hand combat with an 8ft Trolloc with a sword. 

Nerves of steel vs nerves of paper mache.

Meanwhile Dana - who had ample opportunity to trick both Rand and Mat - by drugging them for instance, decided to go for the physical seduction an then confrontation with a 6ft plus man and frighten him with words before outmuscling him to get his sword and then watch him turn into an emotional wreck unable to see left from right.

 

The contrast in fight or flight response is as stark as it could be.

Warrior princess vs jelly legs.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Maximillion

[DaddyFinn]

4 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

He panicked and turned his back on the person with the sword in a small room who he thought was going to kill him in order to try and smash his way through the door.

Dana said they would wait for Mat. She didn't openly threaten to kill him. If I misremember, please correct me.

[Agitel]

And Rand shot multiple arrows at the Trolloc who burst into his house and killed it with a spear.

 

Dana was not trying to kill Rand in that moment, and again, simply taking down someone with a sword while unarmed is not something casually done by a farmboy.

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

Dana said they would wait for Mat. She didn't openly threaten to kill him. If I misremember, please correct me.

 

That was after her door speech and grappling for the sword.

At that point you are in fight or flight mode.

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Maximillion

[Agitel]

I'll just leave it as "I think there is more nuance and dissimilarities than you're allowing."

 

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

And Rand shot multiple arrows at the Trolloc who burst into his house and killed it with a spear.

 

Dana was not trying to kill Rand in that moment, and again, simply taking down someone with a sword while unarmed is not something casually done by a farmboy.

 

Yes, he managed to control his fear in the face of an 8ft Trolloc smashing through the door, but lost control of his bodily functions when faced with Dana.  Not even Mashadar frightened him as much as badass Dana - he stood at it's edge till the last minute before running.

 

 

[Agitel]

Just now, Maximillion said:

 

Yes, he managed to control his fear in the face of an 8ft Trolloc smashing through the door, but lost control of his bodily functions when faced with Dana.  Not even Mashadar frightened him as much as badass Dana - he stood at it's edge till the last minute before running.

 

Beast vs human being, and a woman to boot. But we can just ignore Rand's book sensibilities.

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

That was after her door speech and grappling for the sword.

At that point you are in fight or flight mode.

 

I just watched the scene. Dana was not threatening Rand with the sword. She was waiting for Mat and watching Rand try to break the door. Obviously we interpret that scene differently.

[DaddyFinn]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

 

Beast vs human being, and a woman to boot. But we can just ignore Rand's book sensibilities.

Not to mention the fact Rand and Dana were having a nice conversation and Rand felt completely safe with her before she started to talk about Egwene and pulled her knife ordering him to stay on the bed. Nothing wrong with the scene

[Maximillion]

8 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I just watched the scene. Dana was not threatening Rand with the sword. She was waiting for Mat and watching Rand try to break the door. Obviously we interpret that scene differently.

 

Yes, she not only physically overpowered Rand, grabbing his arm, spinning him around and throwing him against the wall, she then stuck the sword to his throat.  Rand's response was to claw like a puppy at the door crying for help.

 

Dana even looked out the window and took her eyes off Rand, but he was so scared he did nothing but try and claw away at the door, beating on it in utter panic.

 

It just was not a realistic scene at all unless we conclude that Rand is somewhat of a coward whose fight or flight response is most definitely flight - even when there is nowhere to run, in other words just giving up, unable to act.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Maximillion

[MasterAblar]

You realize we know absolutely nothing about Dana right? She could be a trained assassin, we have no idea. At the very least she seemed to know how to handle a sword.

 

Meanwhile Rand is a dude who, for all his size, has never fought a damn thing  ever, has no combat training whatsoever, and is suddenly being attacked by someone he thought was friendly. Book 2 Rand? He’d deal with this better. Book 1 Rand? He might as well be a puppy.

[Maximillion]

3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

You realize we know absolutely nothing about Dana right? She could be a trained assassin, we have no idea. At the very least she seemed to know how to handle a sword.

 

Meanwhile Rand is a dude who, for all his size, has never fought a damn thing  ever, has no combat training whatsoever, and is suddenly being attacked by someone he thought was friendly. Book 2 Rand? He’d deal with this better. Book 1 Rand? He might as well be a puppy.

 

Sure she could be a trained assassin badass - another one.

 

[AdamA]

I honestly don't get the complaints about the running. Real-world, that is absolutely the right move. While they should have and probably would have been able to disarm her, you're almost certainly going to get cut doing it and they don't have a healer around. On the other hand, outrunning a woman, especially a somewhat overweight woman, is trivial. Purely on a risk/reward basis, there is no upside to standing and fighting, even if you're pretty sure you can win the fight. The right move is lure her out of the building, outrun her, then get back in and recover your bow and arrows.

 

The monologue, though. I actually like that they gave her a good reason, as I didn't like EOTW seeming to make the darkfriends pure evil for no apparent good reason, or just because they're all power-hungry. But you can't say "break the wheel." Daenerys Targaryen tainted that phrase for at least the next 20 years.