Feminism changes

[Beidomon]

6 hours ago, JenniferL said:

In the world of the Wheel of Time original sin is attributed to men, not women. 

I mean, that’s cute and all, but do you really think that belief has broad application in today’s society? Or like, in the last century?

[SinisterDeath]

3 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

I mean, that’s cute and all, but do you really think that belief has broad application in today’s society? Or like, in the last century?

I imagine this would be Jen's polite response to that...

[Ellyll]

20 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

And what makes you think so? Saidin and saidar exist in the show. They just have not been mentioned yet.

 

It's definitely intentionally downplayed.  Raef said it's to avoid "confusing" people, but I think that's BS.

 

Saidar is an aspect of the divine feminine.

Saidin of the divine masculine.

 

Spoiler

Ep1 statrs with Moiraine talking like a Red Sister about how it was the arrogance of men that caused the Breaking.

 

She knew better, knew better than likely any non Brown living Sister.

 

It was the fact that the (imperfect) seal to the Dark One's prison was fashioned from Saidin, and that alone, that allowed the Dark One to taint the male half of the source.

 

Men caused the breaking of the world, but only as a side effect of saving the world in the first place. Duality.

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Ellyll

[Ellyll]

13 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Why make changes if they don’t affect the story?

 

All your examples show that Jordan’s world already had women large and in charge, and I loved how this was portrayed in the books. But in Judkin’s world the men must be pathetic. 

Exactly this.

 

Jordan wrote as a male feminist. He obviously had women helping him understand the world from their perspectives while writing.

 

His world is full of ethnically diverse and often incredibly powerful women.

 

So far Raef's vision, to me, seems to be that of a male misandrist rather than a male feminist.

 

His female characters don't actually become more centered or self empowered than Jordan's story, they just become more dismissive of and judgemental towards men, while the men are either removed or turned into thieves/ lecherous caricatures.

 

 

[Deadsy]

9 minutes ago, Ellyll said:

Exactly this.

 

Jordan wrote as a male feminist. He obviously had women helping him understand the world from their perspectives while writing.

 

His world is full of ethnically diverse and often incredibly powerful women.

 

So far Raef's vision, to me, seems to be that of a male misandrist rather than a male feminist.

 

His female characters don't actually become more centered or self empowered than Jordan's story, they just become more dismissive of and judgemental towards men, while the men are either removed or turned into thieves/ lecherous caricatures.

 

 

I feel you are confusing writers with characters.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Deadsy

[Ellyll]

2 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

I feel you are confusing writers with characters.

 

How so? Jordan is the author and Raef is the show runner, neither of them are characters.

[Deadsy]

2 minutes ago, Ellyll said:

 

How so? Jordan is the author and Raef is the show runner, neither of them are characters.

 

 

I may be projecting a bit but I've seen dozens of people commenting, upset about the show putting down men and painting them as dirty or whatever. These are characters doing this, not the writers. 

The only good example is having Mat's father suck, but his mom sucks too. And him stealing does not make him look bad, at all. Neither does it make Thom look bad. I really am failing to see where the men look bad in general. 

Liandrin is made to look the worst of any character in the season so far if you aren't ignoring the obvious. Well, her and Valda.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Deadsy

[Ellyll]

7 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

I may be projecting a bit but I've seen dozens of people commenting, upset about the show putting down men and painting them as dirty or whatever. These are characters doing this, not the writers. 

The only good example is having Mat's father suck, but his mom sucks too. And him stealing does not make him look bad, at all. Neither does it make Thom look bad. I really am failing to see where the men look bad in general. 

Liandrin is made to look the worst of any character in the season so far if you aren't ignoring the obvious.

 

Liandrin is an overt psycopathic sadist who sold her soul.  I'd hope she'd look bad.

 

And yes, the stealing IS bad for Mat.

 

Mat's archetype is supposed to be the inwardly honorable trickster. They ruin that for no good cause.

 

His dad is the worst of it, yes 

 

Bran is weak.

Lan is no borderlander.

Perrin is an accidental wife slaughterer.

 

Like WHY? What good does any of this do?

 

Also, what do you mean it's characters doing it not writers? It's everything from the writers to the actors to the producers doing it.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Ellyll

[Deadsy]

4 minutes ago, Ellyll said:

 

Liandrin is an overt psycopathic sadist who sold her soul.  I'd hope she'd look bad.

 

And yes, the stealing IS bad fo Mat.

 

Mat's archetype is supposed to be the inwardly honorable trickster. They ruin that for no good cause.

 

His dad is the worst of it, yes 

 

Bran is weak.

Lan is no borderlander.

Perrin is an accidental wife slaughterer.

 

Like WHY? What good does any of this do?

 

 

 

Mat doesn't look bad for stealing, because they changed his backstory. He is doing it for honorable reasons.

Bran isn't weak he just didn't have any lines. This implies to me you think women who don't run the family business are weak by default also.

 

I fail to see any problem with Lan.

 

Perrin did nothing wrong and he doesn't look bad at all.

I don't agree with all these choices but the choices aren't doing what you say they are.

 

 

My point with Liandrin is people are mistaking character with writers with her. It isn't the writers' view of men, it's her view.

I feel many people making these comments like these really lack foresight for what they are setting up. If they don't set it up, I'll understand the complaints. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Deadsy

[Harad the White]

On 11/20/2021 at 9:31 AM, TheDreadReader said:

think that some of these changes are showing a logically consistent world built on top of RJ's foundation.

Yes. I have spoken extensively about this on the spoilers forum, but just to simplify, the DR ambiguity is completely consistent with RJ rules. Is it needed? No, but it is fine. I don't know what it does for non-readers but I imagine it seems perfectly sensible to them, as women and men channelers are quickly introduced into the narrative.

[JenniferL]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

I imagine this would be Jen's polite response to that...

Original sin has been the justification for misogyny in Western civilization for centuries. Even if we don’t explicitly talk about it anymore doesn’t mean the idea has gone away. Original sin is an incredibly powerful and ancient concept. Many High Fantasy stories are (intentionally or not) retellings of Paradise Lost. I’m certain it’s intentional in Jordan’s case. 

[Texas Grognard]

On 11/19/2021 at 9:41 PM, DojoToad said:

Guess Rafe was good to his word at being a feminist:

• Marin, not Bran, was running the inn - not that they weren't co-owners in the books, but he was an afterthought  on TV with no mention of him being mayor.  And definitely a Women's Circle with no sign of a Town Council.
• During the Bel Tine attack, a group of women isolate and take out a trolloc.  Nynaeve takes one out on her own.  Perrin only takes one out with the help of Laila.  Where are the rest of the village men - cowering in terror somewhere?
• When Perrin and Egwene are directed to the Tinkers, Ila takes the role of Seeker not Raen.
• The darkfriend that first challenges Rand (and forces him to channel) was changed from a man with some male lackeys to a single 'terminator' female.

 

So the Aes Sedai retain their role as the ultimate power - which is only right?.  But anywhere a man had authority or a lead role in the books, it has been flipped to a woman having control.  Interesting juxtaposition.

 

So what do you all think, was this needed to transition the WoT from book to TV.  Will it make the show more successful?  Where else do you anticipate men being supplanted?

I came here to draw attention to exactly this.

 

TBH--I think that this is what RJ had in mind, but moderated down in order to achieve mass appeal.  He spoke from the beginning about a world where men had committed the original sin and the gender roles were accordingly upended.

 

Aside from the things you pointed out, I think that there is some soft characterizations of a more matriarchal society as well.

 

• Women have a daredevil initiation rite, not the men. Men aren't even allowed to know about it.
• The women are firmly gripping tankards of cider and swilling them like fratboys.
• The innkeeper (darkfriend) in episode 3 is clearly an alpha and is maneuvering a pair of lost boys where she wants them.
• Laila is the smith, Perrin is supposed to be "helping" her.

 

I can't recall a specific example, but several of the lines uttered by the EF Trio are definitely things you'd hear out of a woman's mouth in a different show.

[Beidomon]

1 hour ago, JenniferL said:

Original sin has been the justification for misogyny in Western civilization for centuries. Even if we don’t explicitly talk about it anymore doesn’t mean the idea has gone away. Original sin is an incredibly powerful and ancient concept. Many High Fantasy stories are (intentionally or not) retellings of Paradise Lost. I’m certain it’s intentional in Jordan’s case. 

You’re right, we don’t explicitly talk about it anymore (except for possibly a few cranks). So it basically has gone away. Women have never had it better - at least in the developed world. In fact in many ways they are surpassing men. Being a woman actually gives you a leg up in the workforce and college admissions now.

 

I just find continued victimhood in the face of so much progress a bit tedious. And perhaps I’m reading too far into your commentary, and if that’s the case then my apologies.

[Beidomon]

Not to get too far off the topic of… feminism, but Mat is one of my favorite characters in WOTTV. I don’t think they ruined him at all. I think they’ve given him some added complexity, which is welcome. And I really like the way Barney is playing him which makes me sad to know we only get him for 5 more episodes. 

[Deadsy]

3 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Being a woman actually gives you a leg up in the workforce and college admissions now.

 

lol

[JenniferL]

If you honestly believe that being a woman gives you an advantage… No, I promised SD I’d be polite. But you should probably stop hanging out in a thread about feminism. It’s not going to go well for you. 

[WhiteVeils]

Yeah....I have lots of times that being a woman impeded my career and college...including being told by my college advisor that I couldn't take the advanced math I needed to take for the degree I wanted because it was too hard for women to do.  There are plenty of evangelical churches in the United States that take the Garden of Eden story literally and follow that through with many reasons why women should be treated the way they are.  And of course, simply /claiming/ to be a feminist, let alone being a woman, is enough to cause people to feel that you are not qualified to 'touch' certain sacred things without defiling them.  Like, say, WOT adaptations.

[WhiteVeils]

5 minutes ago, flinn said:

 well, I for one never said it was a "plot hole". I do not like they made Mat a thief, and to call it "honorable" is kinda dishonest.

 

 

 Perrin: "How much did he lose this time"

 Rand: "I dont know, I lost count"

 

 After losing his money he looks over at the girl with the gold bracelet, smiles and goes after her. There is not one single thing honorable about what he did.

He could well not have been going to steal the bracelet at all. He could have gone over there to see if he could convince her she wanted to sleep with him in exchange for the bracelet.  The way he tried to convince Dana to sleep with him in exchange for a room.  He didn't want it sold in town because he didn't want the other townsfolk to know, but that's why Rand says he thought Mat liked older women 'like Moiraine'.  Older women are rich.  
Going to robbing a dead man was an escalation, driven by need and likely the dagger.  But we don't 100% know that he was a thief before.  He may be....he may not be.

[JenniferL]

Let’s just agree that Beidomon has no idea what he’s talking about so this thread doesn’t degenerate into all of us describing all the different ways he’s wrong. I think every woman reading this has a personal example of how sexism has affected our lives. 

[Maximillion]

4 hours ago, JenniferL said:

Let’s just agree that Beidomon has no idea what he’s talking about so this thread doesn’t degenerate into all of us describing all the different ways he’s wrong. I think every woman reading this has a personal example of how sexism has affected our lives. 

I think he was half right. Women do have a lot of advantages over men in modern society. Not in every situation of course… in fact men probably have more  advantages still, but let’s not pretend women have it so bad.

 

 

[Morani]

1 hour ago, Maximillion said:

I think he was half right. Women do have a lot of advantages over men in modern society. Not in every situation of course… in fact men probably have more  advantages still, but let’s not pretend women have it so bad.

 

 

Almost all the advantages I bet you will post about women are social. All the advantages of men are real and life altering. Men still hold most positions of power and the economic resources available. This while women do the lion share of the unpaid work, even while both partners work full time. 92 % of all domestic abuse is done by men onto women in the US. Two thirds of all homicide of women in the US are done by a close relative - husband, boyfriend, ex husband, or other family member. Less than a fifth of the same is true for men, and only about 5 % of men are killed by an SO or ex SO. 

 

Being a you female professional means that you always has to bee at least 10 years older than your male equivalent before being seen as experienced. And don't get me started on medical inequality. Look at the numbers on how illnesses that affect women (like autoimmune diseases, endometriosis or injuries caused by child birth) receive a pittance compared to illnesses that effect men. Women are more likely to die of illnesses that affect both men and women, and women are still to a much higher degree not getting proper medical help, even when they have the same symptoms as men. Look it up, there is an abundance of scientific studies done on this. I especially like it when you put the number of studies done on endometriosis (a very common and incredible painful condition that makes sex impossible) next to the number done on erectile dysfunction (same outcome, except for the lack of insane pain). Spoiler alert: The difference is even bigger than you might think.

 

To quote Margaret Atwood: Men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Morani

[king of nowhere]

On the other hand, women live longer but they get to retire earlier.

Women can take a lot of time off job to stay with their toddlers. Paternity leave amounts to what? One week? As a man, i don't have a right to spend the same amount of time with my children.

And several nations have mandatory military service only for men.

 

Now, all those problems morani stated are real. It is true that women are more often discriminated on their job, more often victims of violence, do more of the household work.

But those are all consequences of unjust actions taken by individuals.

If a woman is not a victim of violence, she has a caring mate that shares the chores evenly, and she has decent people as coworkers... Then she has advantages over men. Advantages that are explicitly, objectively written in the law.

 

I don't want to start a war on who's the most discriminated, because those things are not productive. 

But there are problems with the idea that "women are mistreated by some, so let's give them benefits to compensate".

Women are mistreated... So they should not be mistreated, and the offenders should be censored/punished. Letting a woman retire earlier to compensate for all those household work she does is terribly unfair towards those men who share work equally. They are punished for their good behavior.

 

The feminists are right to denounce pervasive mistreatment in many social context. They have all my support. 

But i ask that they consider, when men complain about discrimination, that they have a point too.

[Morani]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

On the other hand, women live longer but they get to retire earlier.

Women can take a lot of time off job to stay with their toddlers. Paternity leave amounts to what? One week? As a man, i don't have a right to spend the same amount of time with my children.

And several nations have mandatory military service only for men.

 

Now, all those problems morani stated are real. It is true that women are more often discriminated on their job, more often victims of violence, do more of the household work.

But those are all consequences of unjust actions taken by individuals.

If a woman is not a victim of violence, she has a caring mate that shares the chores evenly, and she has decent people as coworkers... Then she has advantages over men. Advantages that are explicitly, objectively written in the law.

 

I don't want to start a war on who's the most discriminated, because those things are not productive. 

But there are problems with the idea that "women are mistreated by some, so let's give them benefits to compensate".

Women are mistreated... So they should not be mistreated, and the offenders should be censored/punished. Letting a woman retire earlier to compensate for all those household work she does is terribly unfair towards those men who share work equally. They are punished for their good behavior.

 

The feminists are right to denounce pervasive mistreatment in many social context. They have all my support. 

But i ask that they consider, when men complain about discrimination, that they have a point too.

That is the case in the US, maybe. Here in Scandinavia both of the parents get 195 days off each (roughly 150 of those are with 80% of your salary and the other 40 you get like 9 dollars/day, but you can take the time off whenever you want and your employer has nothing to say about it). And, alas, still, women do more of the unpaid work at home. I agree that parental leave as it stands in the US is horrible, for both parents and their kids. But that is an differently question entirely ?

 

However, I find it interesting when in WoTTV when women hold more offices than men (from what we have seen so far) many viewers are frothing at mouth from the horrible feminism that she show is showing, while when we live in a world where it is the other way around, it should not be held as evidence that men are still, in fact, in power. 

[JenniferL]

Patriarchal assumptions about gender roles also harm men. The example of parental leave is an excellent example of that. But again, we don’t need to rehash real world examples of sexism when a simple Google search will give you all the information you need. Let’s keep the focus on how the show does or does not live up to its feminist ideals. 

[JenniferL]

Beidomon, you’ve been told not to participate in this thread anymore. Please enjoy any of the other fine threads this forum offers. Thanks.