How did the show hold up for you?

[ArrylT]

7 hours ago, Terry05 said:

7/10 as a failure? Don’t think so. 

Letter Grade	Percentage Range	Mid-Range
A+	90% to 100%	95%
A	80% to 89%	85%
B+	75% to 79%	77.5%
B	70% to 74%	72.5%
C+	65% to 69%	67.5%
C	60% to 64%	62.5%
D+	55% to 59%	57.5%
D	50% to 54%	52.5%
E	40% to 49%	45%
F	0% to 39%	20%

[ArrylT]

7 hours ago, Terry05 said:

7/10 as a failure? Don’t think so. 

A+	95 – 100%	Outstanding
A	90 – 94%	Excellent Superior performance, showing comprehensive understanding of subject matter.
A-	85 – 89%	Approaching Excellent
B+	80 – 84%	Exceeding Good
B	75 – 79%	Good Clearly above average performance with knowledge of subject matter generally complete.
B-	70 – 74%	Approaching Good
C+	67 – 69%	Exceeding Satisfactory
C	64 – 66%	Satisfactory (minimal pass) Basic understanding of subject matter. Minimum required in all courses to meet certificate program requirements.
C-	60 – 63%	Approaching Satisfactory Receipt of a C- or less is not sufficient for certificate program requirements.
D+	55 – 59%	Marginal Performance
D	50 – 54%	Minimal Performance
F	0 – 49%	Fail

[Deviations]

19 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Brace yourself. The books are very different from the show in many respects. But I think you'll find they pair well - like wine with a good meal.

Is Uhtred, Son of Uhtred still a baddass?  If so, I'll be content.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Is Uhtred, Son of Uhtred still a baddass?  If so, I'll be content.

Uhtred, Son of Uthred is the ultimate badass.

[Tamal]

IMDB uses a weighted average when calculating the average score for each show/movie. Which means that not all scores are worth as much when calculating the mean. This method is hidden as to avoid manipulation. It is, however, equally utilized. https://help.imdb.com/article/imdb/track-movies-tv/ratings-faq/G67Y87TFYYP6TWAV#

 

This, no doubt, is partly why shows are generally highly rated on IMDB. Of course, it does not mean that 7.2 is a "good" score. You have to look at what shows are within the same tier. Preferably fantasy shows. As has been mentioned, The Witcher and GoT has it soundly beat by whole points. 

 

At 7.2, WoT has the same rating as the Shannara Chronicles. Which shows that this show has not been well recieved, or that it is "good" in objective (numerical) terms. Some may enjoy it of course, but they are not objectively supported as strongly as one who claims for example that "GoT" as "good". 

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Tamal

[king of nowhere]

I doubt shannara - or even the witcher - had as many enraged fans so hard bent on sinking the show by voting 1, though. just because those franchises had many less fans, or (in case of the witcher) book fans.

and according to the data on viewership, the show was successful, with very few people starting it and not finishing it - the most clear mark that they didn't like it.

[Terry05]

8 hours ago, Truthteller said:

This kind of hand waving away the criticisms is intellectually dishonest.  The situations are not at all analogous, and certainly cannot be presumed.

 

For my part, I was very excited for GOT TV because I really loved the books, but the e tv show was so good it has completely replaced the books in my imagination.  Every character, with the possible exception of Jon Snow, has become their TV versions.  

 

The difference between the two shows is as big as the universe.  You can’t put them on the same scale.  
 

People who defend the show really don’t understand the criticisms if they think they are the usual people don’t like change.

Meh the people criticising are the same as GoT… this change was pointless it doesn’t fit my head canon so I don’t like it. A valid opinion but when they try insulting other people for liking the show they lose all credibility with me.

[DaddyFinn]

21 minutes ago, Terry05 said:

A valid opinion but when they try insulting other people for liking the show they lose all credibility with me.

Or when they insult the production team(mainly Rafe). Those are bye-bye for me. If you can't stay civil, don't say anything.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

24 minutes ago, Terry05 said:

Meh the people criticising are the same as GoT…

I outlined this in a previous post, but book readers were nowhere near as incensed by the early seasons of GoT as they are for WoT. An equally devoted fanbase (which was comparatively large), but none of the initial backlash. Detractors did exist, but not nearly on the scale as WoT. 

 

To me, this is a clear sign that the changes made in WoT are of a completely different animal than those made in GoT. Personally, having read and loved both series before experiencing the TV adaptations, there is a real difference between the approaches that both shows took. 

 

IT IS NOT AN ACCIDENT that GoT did not receive the same backlash that WoT has. WoT fans aren't uniquely toxic. It's 100% due to the nature and attitude of the changes made that WoT has been so divisive. 

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

7 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

A 7.5 on such a system has no relationship to a 'D' grade. Instead, it suggests that the subject of the rating is better than average, but meaningfully less than perfect. Which seems to hit it pretty well on the nose for the series, IMO. 

Your breakdown of how 1-10 scores work is absolutely spot on. No one on the internet uses scores right. 

 

However, this is kind of why WoT being a 7/10 is a bad sign, IMO. I spend a lot of time on myanimelist.net where a score of 5 means that the show is absolute trash. Nothing there gets below a 4. In my experience, most of the internet works this way. Most people will give a 6 or a 7 to something which they enjoyed but left absolutely no impression on them, an 8 to something they liked, and a 9-10 for an absolute favorite. 

 

That being said, an average score of 7 can definitely mean anything between forgettable and better than decent, so in that regard, it's not like WoT is being dragged through the gutter by general audiences. 

Edited January 14, 2022 by JeffTheWoodlandElf

[Terry05]

34 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

I outlined this in a previous post, but book readers were nowhere near as incensed by the early seasons of GoT as they are for WoT. An equally devoted fanbase (which was comparatively large), but none of the initial backlash. Detractors did exist, but not nearly on the scale as WoT. 

 

To me, this is a clear sign that the changes made in WoT are of a completely different animal than those made in GoT. Personally, having read and loved both series before experiencing the TV adaptations, there is a real difference between the approaches that both shows took. 

 

IT IS NOT AN ACCIDENT that GoT did not receive the same backlash that WoT has. WoT fans aren't uniquely toxic. It's 100% due to the nature and attitude of the changes made that WoT has been so divisive. 

I remember them being pretty much the same ?‍♂️
And some of the WoT fans do appear to be uniquely toxic from what I’ve seen ?

[ilovezam]

10 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I would give it a 10. I can't think of any flaws, it was fantastic. 

 

Witcher S1 a similar level to WoT for me (not yet watched S2). 

Oh man, Arcane was spectacular. One of the few rare 10/10 shows for me too. 

 

It also heavily features well written, strong female leads and a fairly diverse cast, changes some of the existing lore, but for some reason you don't see many "sexist" haters for those! Good, nuanced writing goes a loooong way. 

[Truthteller]

3 hours ago, Terry05 said:

Meh the people criticising are the same as GoT… this change was pointless it doesn’t fit my head canon so I don’t like it. A valid opinion but when they try insulting other people for liking the show they lose all credibility with me.

And yet your post is a dismissive insult based on a willful Mischaracterization of all that has been said.  If people insult you it is because you deserve it.  It is not a good faith argument to reduce the criticisms to the show is bad because it does not conform to what is in my head.  No one has said anything like this, that you think they have says something about you not their arguments.

 

 

[Truthteller]

2 hours ago, Terry05 said:

I remember them being pretty much the same ?‍♂️
And some of the WoT fans do appear to be uniquely toxic from what I’ve seen ?

Another bad faith argument coupled with an insult.  In the political context of the changes to the show the word toxic here is loaded.

[Terry05]

11 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

Another bad faith argument coupled with an insult.  In the political context of the changes to the show the word toxic here is loaded.

??? why so upset? If you don’t like it don’t watch it. If you do like it then continue to watch. 

[KakitaOCU]

4 hours ago, Terry05 said:

I remember them being pretty much the same ?‍♂️
And some of the WoT fans do appear to be uniquely toxic from what I’ve seen ?

I'm going to risk a comparison here.

GoT takes the approach of showing just how horrible medieval settings were for women and faces it head on while having a few women powerful or skilled enough to rip down that world.  The Show takes the same approach and so fans see what is largely a portrait for medieval times.

Wheel of Time approaches gender imbalance by instead flipping it.  The setting deliberately justifies women being the primary authority and imagines a world where men are stereotyped and often dismissed the way real women suffered for many years.  Because our main three protagonists are still men and men who become powerful enough to dominate the world around them, many people missed the gender topics being broached.

Along comes a TV show that drags them VERY much into focus and makes it abundantly clear what the setting was trying to say and they lose their mind.

I obviously don't say that as a lable for everyone who disliked the show, but if I had a dollar for every person that was confused, outraged or told me I was stupid when I pointed out things like the Aes Sedai being "The Catholic church, but real magic and all women" or other such points, I wouldn't be able to retire, but I also would have made roughly my annual salary.

[Terry05]

6 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I'm going to risk a comparison here.

GoT takes the approach of showing just how horrible medieval settings were for women and faces it head on while having a few women powerful or skilled enough to rip down that world.  The Show takes the same approach and so fans see what is largely a portrait for medieval times.

Wheel of Time approaches gender imbalance by instead flipping it.  The setting deliberately justifies women being the primary authority and imagines a world where men are stereotyped and often dismissed the way real women suffered for many years.  Because our main three protagonists are still men and men who become powerful enough to dominate the world around them, many people missed the gender topics being broached.

Along comes a TV show that drags them VERY much into focus and makes it abundantly clear what the setting was trying to say and they lose their mind.

I obviously don't say that as a lable for everyone who disliked the show, but if I had a dollar for every person that was confused, outraged or told me I was stupid when I pointed out things like the Aes Sedai being "The Catholic church, but real magic and all women" or other such points, I wouldn't be able to retire, but I also would have made roughly my annual salary.

This definitely seems to be a big issue for the haters. So unfortunate. You’d like to think we’d have come further as a society by now

[fra85uk]

7 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I doubt shannara - or even the witcher - had as many enraged fans so hard bent on sinking the show by voting 1, though. just because those franchises had many less fans, or (in case of the witcher) book fans.

and according to the data on viewership, the show was successful, with very few people starting it and not finishing it - the most clear mark that they didn't like it.

Again, numbers tells that this is NOT true. Imbd numbers have a low % of 1 while we have more than 3 % of 10s.

On the second point, every statistics on engagement see a significant drop during the period in which the show has aired.

[ilovezam]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

The setting deliberately justifies women being the primary authority and imagines a world where men are stereotyped and often dismissed the way real women suffered for many years. 

I think the point I've seen made here many times is that the book narrative and setting already sufficiently justify and feature women dominating politically and socially, but both male and female individuals featured in the books were given equal opportunities to be good/bad, strong/weak, smart/dumb, whatever. The show ups the ante and overdoes it in IMHO a less compelling way - for example by turning Agelmar and LTT into stunningly stupid characters who refuse to listen to women portrayed as being clearly in the right. Same themes as the books, sure, but it starts to feel rather hamfisted and excessive here.

And whether it was the writers' intentions or not, many viewers, including some non-book readers, felt that the male characters were shown with limited agency/competence, and saw many of their positive character traits/feats taken away from them. Where Robert Jordan wrote about these sexist attitudes in condemnation, Rafe sometimes comes across as condoning them. Rafe did catch that "balance" was an important theme in the books though, so maybe this was intentional misdirection, and I hope in Season 2 we would start to see a reversal as we learn more about saidin and the Dragon Reborn.

But until then, and only then, what we've got so far paints a sordid picture. A reminder of what Rosamund Pike thought the Breaking of the World was about:

 

"When I found out that Robert Jordan had been a helicopter gunner in Vietnam, I thought, oh, that's where this big fantasy world originates. That's why he's interested in men who had power and abused it and broke the world"

 

Did that seem like an accurate reading to you?

Edited January 14, 2022 by ilovezam

[EmreY]

His liking for Heinlein shows up too.  I suppose that's where the spanking comes from.

Edited January 14, 2022 by EmreY

[notpropaganda73]

7 hours ago, Terry05 said:

And some of the WoT fans do appear to be uniquely toxic from what I’ve seen ?

 

You may have been tongue in cheek here, but this definitely isn't true. Just have a look at Star Wars. WoT has been relatively tame. 

[Terry05]

15 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

You may have been tongue in cheek here, but this definitely isn't true. Just have a look at Star Wars. WoT has been relatively tame. 

Haha definitely was being.

 

Yeah Star Wars is nasty!

[Gothic Flame]

The Breaking left a thousand wonders behind, and there been half a dozen empires or more since, some rivaling Artur Hawkwing’s, every one leaving things to see and find. Lightsticks and razorlace and heartstone. A crystal lattice covering an island, and it hums when the moon is up. A mountain hollowed into a bowl, and in its center, a silver spike a hundred spans high, and any who comes within a mile of it, dies. Rusted ruins, and broken bits, and things found on the bottom of the sea, things not even the oldest books know the meaning of I’ve gathered a few, myself. Things you never dreamed of, in more places than you can see in ten lifetimes. That be the strangeness that will draw you on.”

 

“We used to dig up bones in the Sand Hills,” Rand said slowly. “Strange bones. There was part of a fish—I think it was a fish—as big as this boat, once. Some said it was bad luck, digging in the hills.”

The captain eyed him shrewdly. “You thinking about home already, lad, and you just set out in the world? The world will put a hook in your mouth. You’ll set off chasing the sunset, you wait and see… and if you ever go back, your village’ll no be big enough to hold you.”

-------

Bayle Domon...was so nonexistent.

[EduardoEnriqueGonzalez]

20 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

except the average isn't a 7.5. even the one that shows WoT in the most positive light only has an 7.2. Rotten Tomatoes has it at 6.5.

 

That's already low. And the majority of ratings came in before people reached their tipping (negative) point in the series. Sad truth is RT and IMDB and even our poll here nosedived the second half of the show. 

 

 

[AdamA]

15 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I doubt shannara - or even the witcher - had as many enraged fans so hard bent on sinking the show by voting 1, though. just because those franchises had many less fans, or (in case of the witcher) book fans.

and according to the data on viewership, the show was successful, with very few people starting it and not finishing it - the most clear mark that they didn't like it.

I don't know about IMDB, but on Rotten Tomatoes, Witcher fans have bombed the hell out of it with 1/2 star reviews. The season two fan average is 61% after 91% for season 1, the exact opposite of the drastic improvement in critics rating, and the opinions of most Wheel of Time fans here who have watched both seasons and expressed an opinion.

 

Wheel of Time fans are not uniquely toxic at all as far as I can tell, but we are in the bad position here of the show coming on with a very atypical fantasy world full of non-white people and women in charge at the height of US culture wars and we've got a lot of red pill types who are seeing something much different than me in the gender dynamics and racial makeup of the cast that drives them into a rage, whereas I feel like those of us not so drenched in the red pill movement see a show that isn't tremendously well made right now, but nonetheless a world that looks basically the same as the world of the books, not some ideological diatribe of beta cuck white genocide or something. I think Kakita is right that reading it and actually seeing it are different experiences and some people are acutely feeling that.

 

Rafe isn't doing a great job so far, in my opinion, but I think he's genuinely a fan of Robert Jordan and is at least doing this in good faith.