How did the show hold up for you?

[Gothic Flame]

Oh...I don't know...

I can honestly say Rafe gave me something I am taking a liking to; the word "bookcloak."

If in his perspective this makes me a "close-minded purist" then I'll wear "bookcloak" as a title to be proud of.

[Rhavin]

I really didnt expect WinterDragon to become the best TV-adaption we will get, but here we are :D

[Deviations]

My wife is out of town for a couple of days and I had been thinking I'd re-watch the series while she's gone.  Funny thing.  Last night I watched Aliens on cable instead.  Commercials and all.

[Truthteller]

3 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

You don't see any contradiction in your position here? 

 

I don't portray critics as close minded purists. I think any nuanced reading of these pages will see that those who are fans of the show and those who are critical agree on many of the problems. It's the conclusions that we draw from those criticisms that differ. 

 

Fans of the show are discussing on these forums what the problems are and how they might solve them, how the show might handle events down the road, what they could do better for certain characters etc. The fact these discussions are not "faintly plausible" to you means very little other than your own exclusionary views. 

 

Unless I have misread your meaning, in which case I apologise and ignore me ? 

I mean come on, the show runner has been taunting fans who don’t like the show, and this has been picked up by his defenders, with terms like “book cloak” and or calling the critics of the show dark friends.  It isn’t even subtext.  
 

And the defences are not plausible, since they start from the assumption that the criticisms are extrinsically motivated.  This is quite ironic, since the changes to the series themselves have been driven by extrinsic motivations.

 

The thread trying to predict what is going to happen next is a great example.  How could anyone predict what will happen next when there are no rules and the source material has been jettisoned?  

[notpropaganda73]

You didn't really address my point to be honest. You are talking about people being arrogant and unwilling to listen and yet say that any theorising or discussion of the show's path going forward is pointless and that the show deserves to be hated. Who are you to tell others how to feel about the show? That's how you feel about it, and that's fine, but don't pretend like your position is any more solid than fans of the show going around calling you a Darkfriend. Both are positions of arrogance and looking down on those with a different view. 

 

 

24 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

How could anyone predict what will happen next when there are no rules and the source material has been jettisoned?

 

How could anyone call you open minded about the show if this is the position you are taking so definitively? 

 

[Skipp]

26 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

I mean come on, the show runner has been taunting fans who don’t like the show, and this has been picked up by his defenders, with terms like “book cloak” and or calling the critics of the show dark friends.  It isn’t even subtext. 

I don't believe RJ2 has taunted book fans who don't like the show.  He said stated they made many decisions knowing they wouldn't sit well with the hardcore crowdy but was pleasntly surprised about the amount of bookfans that seemed to enjoy the show.  I personally wouldn't consider this taunting but if you have a different quote I would love to read it.

 

I also believe the term bookcloak came from the group of fans that formed the "Whitecloaks" reddit.  They created the reddit because they were not impressed by the trailers and wanted a place to voice their complaints about a show they hadn't watched.  It has only gotten worse since.

[Truthteller]

2 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

You didn't really address my point to be honest. You are talking about people being arrogant and unwilling to listen and yet say that any theorising or discussion of the show's path going forward is pointless and that the show deserves to be hated. Who are you to tell others how to feel about the show? That's how you feel about it, and that's fine, but don't pretend like your position is any more solid than fans of the show going around calling you a Darkfriend. Both are positions of arrogance and looking down on those with a different view. 

 

 

 

How could anyone call you open minded about the show if this is the position you are taking so definitively? 

 

You are confusing issues.  I am not telling people how to feel, I am describing what is.
 

There is this idea out there that this is all subjective.  But we know that isn’t true.  The books and the series are real things.  We can talk about them.  Otherwise, why would there be a suggestion to give reasons?  And once we start giving reasons, the implication is that some reasons are going to be better than others.  
 

My point is that the defenders of the show have been openly dismissive of the reasons of the critics on an ad hominem basis.  Ironically, I don’t even consider you a defender of the show, you appear to me to be on the side of the critics, but haven’t accepted it yet.

[Gothic Flame]

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I don't believe RJ2 has taunted book fans who don't like the show. 

I don't think "bookcloaks" was meant to be a compliment. (Although I'll be happy to be referred to as such, since I certainly wouldn't consider the opposite to be anything but a derogatory.)

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

My point is that the defenders of the show have been openly dismissive of the reasons of the critics on an ad hominem basis.

No more than critics of the show have been openly dismissive of the opinions of those who enjoy the show.

[Jaysen Gore]

3 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

I don't think "bookcloaks" was meant to be a compliment. (Although I'll be happy to be referred to as such, since I certainly wouldn't consider the opposite to be anything but a derogatory.)

Bookcloaks is derogatory. They prefer to be called Children of the Page..

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Bookcloaks is derogatory. They prefer to be called Children of the Page..

I like it!

[Lethira the second]

2 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Bookcloaks is derogatory. They prefer to be called Children of the Page..

If someone made T-shirts with these on, well, 'shut up and take my money'

 

 

[Deviations]

38 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Bookcloaks is derogatory. They prefer to be called Children of the Page..

Best laugh all day

[notpropaganda73]

1 hour ago, Truthteller said:

You are confusing issues.  I am not telling people how to feel, I am describing what is.
 

There is this idea out there that this is all subjective.  But we know that isn’t true.  The books and the series are real things.  We can talk about them.  Otherwise, why would there be a suggestion to give reasons?  And once we start giving reasons, the implication is that some reasons are going to be better than others.  
 

My point is that the defenders of the show have been openly dismissive of the reasons of the critics on an ad hominem basis.  Ironically, I don’t even consider you a defender of the show, you appear to me to be on the side of the critics, but haven’t accepted it yet.

 

People's reactions and feelings towards the adaptation are subjective. We can objectively talk about what is different between book and show, but where people are theorising about implications for the show going forward, how you feel about that, is 100% subjective. 

 

Even saying that I haven't accepted that I'm on the "side" of the critics seems to me a strange characterisation of me. I'm not on anyone's "side", I'm enjoying the show and I enjoy talking about it and the problems. I enjoy talking about what it's done well and what it hasn't. I enjoy thinking about what they might do in S2 in terms of structure and character, and how they might reset, or if they think they need to reset at all. To say I haven't "accepted" something is to imply that you know better than me about my own feelings, and again, you have said that others are arrogant or dismissive? 

I'm not sure if I am explaining myself very well, as I don't mean to offend. So may be best if I just leave it here

[Skipp]

11 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

People's reactions and feelings towards the adaptation are subjective. We can objectively talk about what is different between book and show, but where people are theorising about implications for the show going forward, how you feel about that, is 100% subjective. 

 

Even saying that I haven't accepted that I'm on the "side" of the critics seems to me a strange characterisation of me. I'm not on anyone's "side", I'm enjoying the show and I enjoy talking about it and the problems. I enjoy talking about what it's done well and what it hasn't. I enjoy thinking about what they might do in S2 in terms of structure and character, and how they might reset, or if they think they need to reset at all. To say I haven't "accepted" something is to imply that you know better than me about my own feelings, and again, you have said that others are arrogant or dismissive? 

I'm not sure if I am explaining myself very well, as I don't mean to offend. So may be best if I just leave it here

Well said, I feel very similar.

[Weird_Old_Lady]

On 1/6/2022 at 8:14 AM, Truthteller said:

I mean come on, the show runner has been taunting fans who don’t like the show, and this has been picked up by his defenders, with terms like “book cloak” and or calling the critics of the show dark friends.  It isn’t even subtext.  
 

And the defences are not plausible, since they start from the assumption that the criticisms are extrinsically motivated.  This is quite ironic, since the changes to the series themselves have been driven by extrinsic motivations.

 

The thread trying to predict what is going to happen next is a great example.  How could anyone predict what will happen next when there are no rules and the source material has been jettisoned?  

But a lot of people are definitely making predictions and having fun. It isn't impossible, obviously.  As to how, I just use my IMAGINATION  and also my BRAIN. It isn't hard. 

 

The problem is so many come in here with negative opinions and treat other people like poop if they have positive opinions. 

 

So basically a buncha y'all don't have the right kinds of brains and imagination to have fun with this and you're mad at the happy people about it. Heckin ridiculous. 

 

Just make a thread called "people who are not happy with the show vent here" and let the rest of us have fun? 

 

I am trying to hard to have some heckin FUN.

[Ryrin]

2 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

But a lot of people are definitely making predictions and having fun. It isn't impossible, obviously.  As to how, I just use my IMAGINATION  and also my BRAIN. It isn't hard. 

 

The problem is so many come in here with negative opinions and treat other people like poop if they have positive opinions. 

 

So basically a buncha y'all don't have the right kinds of brains and imagination to have fun with this and you're mad at the happy people about it. Heckin ridiculous. 

 

Just make a thread called "people who are not happy with the show vent here" and let the rest of us have fun? 

 

I am trying to hard to have some heckin FUN.

What? Discussions on the show should only include people that agree with you? 
 

Having a brain includes the ability to think critically. 

[Weird_Old_Lady]

Just now, Ryrin said:

What? Discussions on the show should only include people that agree with you? 
 

Having a brain includes the ability to think critically. 

Not at all. But a mature discussion does not involve  one side talking about a variety of things and the other side coming in and just going "No . Wrong. Bad. Hate. How can you possibly be having any fun at all?" I'm not wrong because I like the show. It is obviously subjective. 

 

I like a lot about the show. I love parts of it. I cringed at Moiraine having a tell. That was dumb. 

[Rhavin]

On 1/6/2022 at 5:58 PM, Lethira the second said:

If someone made T-shirts with these on, well, 'shut up and take my money'

You have been heard…
https://rhavin.myspreadshop.de/children+of+the+page?idea=61da1b930d12f768222bfe1c

[Ryrin]

4 hours ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

Not at all. But a mature discussion does not involve  one side talking about a variety of things and the other side coming in and just going "No . Wrong. Bad. Hate. How can you possibly be having any fun at all?" I'm not wrong because I like the show. It is obviously subjective. 

 

I like a lot about the show. I love parts of it. I cringed at Moiraine having a tell. That was dumb. 

A “mature discussion” doesn’t involve this either. 

 

“So basically a buncha y'all don't have the right kinds of brains and imagination to have fun with this and you're mad at the happy people about it. Heckin ridiculous.”

[VooDooNut]

27 minutes ago, Ryrin said:

A “mature discussion” doesn’t involve this either. 

 

“So basically a buncha y'all don't have the right kinds of brains and imagination to have fun with this and you're mad at the happy people about it. Heckin ridiculous.”

Critical thinking is great. There's a difference between having a critical discussion of works of art and:

•  berating the creators (you can dislike the work or aspects of it without personal attacks or low blows)
•  calling others in the forum shills for Amazon for expressing their enjoyment of the show
•  repeatedly pushing ideas of "agendas" or gender-bias tainting the show process (that's fine if that's your opinion, but others can feel how they want to as well)
•  reviving dead arguments that have already been discussed repeatedly (disagreements that ultimately have no final judgement anyway, like the point above)
•  insisting there is only one way to interpret the show/story/acting/character arcs/etc.
•  makings arguments that amount to "this show is doomed" without any additional critique
•  Making comments like "90% of book readers hate the show" (I love the show and the books and think there is a synergy between the two and I don't like being used as a pawn in arguments like this)
•  Acting like the television show will ruin the legacy of RJs great epic. It won't.
• etc. etc. etc.
• (and some of these points might bother some more than others)

 

I don't want to dissuade others from participating in any discussion, but I also don't think we need to tolerate dead end comments that provide no sustenance for the conversation and sometimes can be downright insulting. I've even created another thread to discuss the show with the explicit request to avoid behavior like I outlined above because it's such a rampant problem right now.

 

Surely we are not alone in feeling this way?

[Juan Farstrider]

Chiming in late. I read the books knowing the show was going to be on Amazon, because I loved watching youtube videos about GOT made by people who had really read and reread those books. I fell in love with the books more and more as I read on, as I guess many did. 

I know enough about acting to know what it means to tell a story visually. The people involved have to welcome the challenge when parts of an existing story are difficult to put on a screen/stage. It requires creative problem solving (among other things) to create something for the screen/stage that does the job an author gets done with internal dialogue. (the director of the Shazam! movie wrote something a while ago about the need to love problem solving) 

One problem some people expected was condensing the material down to a reasonable run time, but I did not think that would be a problem because RJ put so much into describing visual details which are conveyed in an instant on the screen. I expected the world to be pruned back a lot. I would not have been surprised if major conflicts or nations were left out or combined. The Ogier I expected to be left out. (I kinda wish they had been now. Respect to the actor who I think had fun being Loial, which reflected to me a young Ogier out on his adventure)

Everyone expected Perrin to be changed, or to be difficult to capture because of all the internal drama and his complexity. Sorry, but Rafe took the lazy way out. Maybe they'll cut his actual wife, because How crazy jealous will Faile be as a second wife? Perrin is one of my favorite characters; and though I think his story stalls out later in the books, we are no where near that in the show. For where we are in the books, there is little need to change Perrin's story. I have to say that I did like the pack of tiniest wolves in Rand-land (can we call it that now? Rafe-land, that's it) in Rafe-land. Elyas is a character that could have served as a cautionary tale for Perrin and the changes he's undergoing, and all his hesitancy about violence or rage-violence could find a firm ground there. 

I loved Someshta and loved that the Eye of the World is always in a different place, and we didn't get any of that. Why? Did they have something better to tell the audience? Clearly not. 

I can't list all the disappointments, all the "why?s" to changes and just complete fabrications. I can say "I'm glad that's over" and I will not be back for season 2. Look at what Amazon did with the Expanse, for not just what we could have had but what THEY could have had. Rafe is so far in over his head it is sad. That's not his fault, he's too young to know how in over his head he is. This buck stops higher than him. He's too young to know the difference between creating something and adapting something. By analogy he is clearly like a mediocre amateur musician who heard an ancient piece of music and knows how great it would be to play it for a modern audience. That takes a well trained classical musician to understand interpretation and just where the freedom lies in that art, and more importantly where it doesn't lie. 

The idea that it is OK to have writers who have not read the material is silly to me because this is supposed to be an adaptation of RJ's books. You can say you could have script editors or people who punch-up scripts who did not read the books, and God knows enough of those get attached to projects (and bloat the budgets) just so they can get paid/credits. But, this is not an original work. It should not be treated as such. New material needs a real good reason, and changing it to bring WoT to a new audience is not that reason because it is a lie. Tell the story you want to tell. If it is WoT, then tell it. If it is not, then tell that. Don't take your ideas and wrap it RJ's world and pretend you're telling RJ's story.

What happens too often is production studios know a new "IP" is risky, so they float their bad or good new ideas in the guise of an established IP to remove risk from the venture. But, both are ruined for it. What ever original and new world that the writers could have created suffers from being shoe-horned into someone else's established and successful creation, and the established coherent world already created by someone who put so many hours and years into the project is cheapened by the new ideas.

People expected Amazon to use WoT to be their GoT, and maybe we got it. But I think everyone was hoping for the first few seasons, not the last. Amazon cuts to the chase I guess. 

I have to thank Rafe for giving me a reason to reread the books though, to get the taste of what ever it is he was cooking out of my mouth. 

Also, Moraine has a tell? Just stop. Rafe thinks this is poker, but I know he's bluffing. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Juan Farstrider
clarity, typos, and more clarity

[fitzwell]

18 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Critical thinking is great. There's a difference between having a critical discussion of works of art and:

•  berating the creators (you can dislike the work or aspects of it without personal attacks or low blows)
•  calling others in the forum shills for Amazon for expressing their enjoyment of the show
•  repeatedly pushing ideas of "agendas" or gender-bias tainting the show process (that's fine if that's your opinion, but others can feel how they want to as well)
•  reviving dead arguments that have already been discussed repeatedly (disagreements that ultimately have no final judgement anyway, like the point above)
•  insisting there is only one way to interpret the show/story/acting/character arcs/etc.
•  makings arguments that amount to "this show is doomed" without any additional critique
•  Making comments like "90% of book readers hate the show" (I love the show and the books and think there is a synergy between the two and I don't like being used as a pawn in arguments like this)
•  Acting like the television show will ruin the legacy of RJs great epic. It won't.
• etc. etc. etc.
• (and some of these points might bother some more than others)

 

I don't want to dissuade others from participating in any discussion, but I also don't think we need to tolerate dead end comments that provide no sustenance for the conversation and sometimes can be downright insulting. I've even created another thread to discuss the show with the explicit request to avoid behavior like I outlined above because it's such a rampant problem right now.

 

Surely we are not alone in feeling this way?

 

• I love the creator of the books and hope he rests in peace.  I dislike what the showrunners are doing to his work.
• I've called some of the youtube creators shills as some of the reviews from a book readers perspective is just plain silly.  Loving something and promoting it isn't really a bad thing either.  I'll shill for chocolate, and other things I love anyday.  Heck, I shill for friends businesses all the time.
• Dude if you don't see this show clearly saying men are unimportant and that the women are the stars of this show I don't know what to tell you.  I would love to see a screen time count.  They even push more tav'ern in this show which.  On top of that adding modern culture issues into the show mainly around LGBTQ is like all of the nudeness in the show Rome.  It serves little purpose and really shouldn't be so on the cuff.
• Dead arguments, I don't know what you mean.  If you don't understand the Aiel will always vail to be ready to kill then who cares.  The best part of this is that the show contradicted itself on this topic which is just too funny.  See poor show runners above.
• Lot's of ways to interpret the show but the nonsense with the all powerful Nyneve is just plain silly.  mass healing, blocking the black wind?  At least get the power to have 2 halves yet it doesn't appear to care about the book lore.
• Lol, the show's not doomed.  Even those of us that hate it are drawn to it like moths to a flame because we will wade through hours of crap to see one cool thing such as the ending fight of book 1 or the greenman.  Oh wait, nvm.
• I can't argue with you here.  It's just sad that we might not ever get this series again and this garbage is the best we're ever going to get after waiting so long to see it on screen.  I'm on book 4 now listening to it on the way to work and I just love this world.  
• Not all book readers hate this show but I'm guessing those that have read this series multiple read throughs are probably more apt to dislike the show.  It is hard to have read this series more than a dozen times and not have every detail that is off not drive you crazy.   See Aiel above.
• ETC, Etc, etc....  I agree on this.
• I'm not bothered by your points I just disagree with you.

I think your point is that those of us that are heartbroken and speaking out about it really seem to bother you.  I'm sorry I can't find it in my heart to let this go.  I absolutely love the books and don't even know how many times I've listened to or read them.  I love this world and it's amazing, it just really hurts that the masterpiece I love seems to be getting washed out and dogs playing cards is being painted over it.  I love this world more than star wars and I grew up in the 70's/80's.

 

What bothers me about the tone you seem to have is you're saying we should stop disagreeing or voicing our opinion.   Dude, if you like the show more power to you.  Go enjoy it and ignore us, we're the ones that feel like the injured party here.  If you don't see our hurt underneath our anger then I'm sorry, but I promise it's there.  Best of luck.

[VooDooNut]

9 minutes ago, fitzwell said:

 

• I love the creator of the books and hope he rests in peace.  I dislike what the showrunners are doing to his work.
• I've called some of the youtube creators shills as some of the reviews from a book readers perspective is just plain silly.  Loving something and promoting it isn't really a bad thing either.  I'll shill for chocolate, and other things I love anyday.  Heck, I shill for friends businesses all the time.
• Dude if you don't see this show clearly saying men are unimportant and that the women are the stars of this show I don't know what to tell you.  I would love to see a screen time count.  They even push more tav'ern in this show which.  On top of that adding modern culture issues into the show mainly around LGBTQ is like all of the nudeness in the show Rome.  It serves little purpose and really shouldn't be so on the cuff.
• Dead arguments, I don't know what you mean.  If you don't understand the Aiel will always vail to be ready to kill then who cares.  The best part of this is that the show contradicted itself on this topic which is just too funny.  See poor show runners above.
• Lot's of ways to interpret the show but the nonsense with the all powerful Nyneve is just plain silly.  mass healing, blocking the black wind?  At least get the power to have 2 halves yet it doesn't appear to care about the book lore.
• Lol, the show's not doomed.  Even those of us that hate it are drawn to it like moths to a flame because we will wade through hours of crap to see one cool thing such as the ending fight of book 1 or the greenman.  Oh wait, nvm.
• I can't argue with you here.  It's just sad that we might not ever get this series again and this garbage is the best we're ever going to get after waiting so long to see it on screen.  I'm on book 4 now listening to it on the way to work and I just love this world.  
• Not all book readers hate this show but I'm guessing those that have read this series multiple read throughs are probably more apt to dislike the show.  It is hard to have read this series more than a dozen times and not have every detail that is off not drive you crazy.   See Aiel above.
• ETC, Etc, etc....  I agree on this.
• I'm not bothered by your points I just disagree with you.

I think your point is that those of us that are heartbroken and speaking out about it really seem to bother you.  I'm sorry I can't find it in my heart to let this go.  I absolutely love the books and don't even know how many times I've listened to or read them.  I love this world and it's amazing, it just really hurts that the masterpiece I love seems to be getting washed out and dogs playing cards is being painted over it.  I love this world more than star wars and I grew up in the 70's/80's.

 

What bothers me about the tone you seem to have is you're saying we should stop disagreeing or voicing our opinion.   Dude, if you like the show more power to you.  Go enjoy it and ignore us, we're the ones that feel like the injured party here.  If you don't see our hurt underneath our anger then I'm sorry, but I promise it's there.  Best of luck.

I appreciate the comments @fitzwell, sincerely. Well spoken.

 

I think the hurt exists in both camps.

 

And tone does not come across in text (I'll ask for some leniency there), but I'll just add that nothing I said above was meant to be hurtful, but rather bring attention to the quality of some content I've read across the forum.

Edited January 9, 2022 by VooDooNut
typo

[fitzwell]

1 minute ago, VooDooNut said:

I appreciate the comments @fitzwell, sincerely. Well spoken.

 

I think the hurt exists in both camps.

 

And tone does not come across in text (I'll ask for some leniency there), but I'll just add that nothing I said above was not meant to be hurtful, but rather bring attention to the quality of some content I've read across the forum.

Thanks and again, I'm still holding out hope that this turns around some and that the big issues were caused by Barney walking off.  I'll do my best to be kind going forward.

 

I really am happy you are enjoying the show and for what it's worth I'm really enjoying the books again so we both win!  Have a great weekend.