How did the show hold up for you?

[Mirefox]

I allay knew changes were inevitable.  It goes with the medium.  However, for each change, I think 2 questions need to be answered: 1) Why, and 2) Does it fit the themes of the story.

 

Take, for example, moving Caemlyn to season 2.  Why?  Obvious time constraints.  Does it fit the theme, or is there a way to fit it in naturally?  Sure.

 

1/8 of the season devoted to Steppin.  Why?  They want to show the importance of the bond and the consequences of it breaking.  Does it fit the theme?  Sure.  I didn’t like so much time being spent on something that could be told in 30 seconds and feel like funeral was a bit overkill, especially with Lan, but ok, I’ll deal with it.

 

LTT acting out of arrogance instead of desperation?  Why?  I have no idea.  The writers seem to hate men, so there’s that.  Does it fit the theme of the story?  Nope!

 

Unfortunately, so many of those changes fit the last template.  I found the first season maddening.  It was a gut punch.  Too many of the changes were made for incomprehensible reasons or, worse, because the show runners wanted to tell a different story using Wheel of Time as a vector.  
 

I have never been more disappointed in a show.

[grayavatar]

6 hours ago, KingCheops said:

I'm enjoying it.  To the point where I'm rereading the series.  I know they changed things a lot but I imagine they'll do some massive streamlining of the story and the changes are for that.

No. When you streamline the story you don't create a bunch of useless filler that slows the story down.

[EchoSnowman]

I think the whole thing is a missed opportunity for Amazon.... feels like they basically alienated a lot of the people who wanted to see their favorite books come to life on the screen....

 

The MCU is wildy successful in the theaters because they stuck to a semblance of the saga... they made changes yes but they are remaining true enough to even keep some of the die hard fans wanting more as well as the folks who have never picked up a comic book in their lives .... read that as yes the geeks (myself included) can appreciate what they are doing... however with this.... changing the everything is a problem for the die hard geeks (yes me again)... things don't need to be rewritten, added or bastardized to further your story (or political agenda/stance) Jordan already wrote it.

[Elder_Haman]

4 hours ago, EchoSnowman said:

The MCU is wildy successful in the theaters because they stuck to a semblance of the saga

Comic books are not known for their fidelity to a single narrative. The story the MCU is telling just picks and chooses from many different stories that have been told about its characters over the last 70 years. 

 

You simply can't compare the MCU to WoT. It's apples to oranges.

[Yojimbo]

12 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Comic books are not known for their fidelity to a single narrative. The story the MCU is telling just picks and chooses from many different stories that have been told about its characters over the last 70 years. 

 

You simply can't compare the MCU to WoT. It's apples to oranges.

Excellent point.

 

The genius of theMCU to me is that the characters feel true to who they were in the comics (at least the ones I was reading in the 70's) no matter how much they played with timelines and storylines..    

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Yojimbo said:

The genius of theMCU to me is that the characters feel true to who they were in the comics

We are veering off topic, so we should probably leave this here - but it's hit or miss. Some characters they really nailed, and some they really reimagined. But the MCU has done a fantastic job of making its characters stay true to themselves.

[Yojimbo]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

We are veering off topic, so we should probably leave this here - but it's hit or miss. Some characters they really nailed, and some they really reimagined. But the MCU has done a fantastic job of making its characters stay true to themselves.

haha!  I was just about to edit my post to say "sorry for going off topic."

[WoTwasThat]

25 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Comic books are not known for their fidelity to a single narrative. The story the MCU is telling just picks and chooses from many different stories that have been told about its characters over the last 70 years. 

 

You simply can't compare the MCU to WoT. It's apples to oranges.

 

Totally agree. But that's what make this "adaptation" so frustrating. They had one set of books to adapt. Not even a set of books, but a first book which RJ deliberately wrote as both a standalone adventure and a launchpad.

[DreadParrot]

Quick preface to my reaction…

 

I started WoT when I picked up Dragon Reborn once it hit paperback, and I got 200 pages in and was completely lost. Tracked down Eye of the world, tore all the way through rand getting callandor at end of DR and was overjoyed at the three books (reading in order extremely important). Then began the wait between books. Always got the newest book day of release and finished within two days. Huge fan of the series and had posted through dragonmount and theoryland years ago. Have not touched a forum since Memory of Light came out. 
 

Signed back up when show began and entered in with low expectations and low hopes. Watched the first episode and it felt about right, little CW-ish in costuming, but it fit within my framework for how the world should look. Little things gave me glimmers of hope. Egwene going through the river to become part of the women’s circle was almost to the word the training description for a woman touching the source…which was cool. They visually represented that metaphor…

 

I always try to make the mental adjustment to allot for differences between the books and the show. They can’t be the same. I accept that fact. I also expect that if you are translating a book it’s your responsibility to provide the information I need as a viewer without having read the books. As an example…the black tendrils when a man channels is a good visual representation of the taint. In this regard they seemed to have a grasp for how to translate book elements to the tv medium. Over time the aggravation of not getting information became aggravating. I don’t believe we ever gotten an explanation for Fades or their proper name in the eight episodes. We got one line in episode 8 about not leaving shadows, but no description of why that meant anything. They skimmed the surface for world of dreams but never quantified it or the importance. Upon conclusion of season we got no identification of ishamael being the dream visitor. My friend who never read the books was confused as to whether the show was supposed to run one season only cause it seemed like rand just killed the dark one. 
 

Everything felt rushed and overly edited. Barely got to know Thom at all, let alone get any explanation for why he would sacrifice himself to go at a Fade. Loial felt right in performance but completely rushed for any execution or depth to who he was. We got to know more about Stepin, the darkfriend bartender, and Amilisa then Perrin or Matt. I realize the recasting of Matt threw a wrench into things…

 

to use an analogy, watching this season felt like being dragged behind a speed boat while water skiing. I could see the quality stuff there just below the surface but we never got deep enough because of the speed we were racing. It got left behind and we managed to go across the whole lake without ever really getting wet. 
 

Episode 8 killed the series for me. It didn’t feel like a season finale at all. Nynaeve got the shining mass heal moment. Moiraine got to tear down a building to kill the Trollocs, rand got to look at a guy and make a bright light. Perrin got to lumber across a tent and make a Frankenstein noise then do nothing. There was no build up or pay off in the finale. Just a tertiary character wiping out an army and then burning herself to a cinder. I had zero emotional involvement or sense of fulfillment watching that scene. Just as I had zero fulfillment or pay off in rand channeling to make a bright light. they created more immersion and tension in the cold open to episode 7 then virtually the rest of the series. 
 

Had they given the mass area of effect attack to Nynaeve or Egwene would had created a slight buy in for me. ESCPECIALLY if Amilisa had coached one of them through what to do. 
 

Amilisa: I’m too weak to control the amount of power we need to use. 
 

Egwene: Moiraine never taught me. 
 

Amilisa: Aes Sedai intentions are impossible to follow, it was her duty to show you the way, I can’t carry this burden for you, but I will show you the way. 
 

then have Egwene lose control and Amilisa seize control to spare Egwene….”you saved my city and my people, it is my honor Egwene” 

 

same basic outcome but now you are placing responsibility and agency in your leads and allowing the support characters to shine in the process. 
 

Too many deviations, too much rushing, and too many flat moments. 
 

I don’t see it making it past a second season, even if it did I don’t have faith they can execute the critical moments. When I heard they were adapting Game of Thrones I told every person I know that if they got three moments right I would forgive every other thing wrong.

 

the things I do for love…nailed that moment

 

jaimie Lannister sends his regards…heartbreaking and awesome 

 

you are going to fight that thing? I am going to kill that thing….Oberon vs Mountain was everything I prayed for. 
 

I have zero faith in Dumai Wells being done justice. 
 

I have zero faith in Matt dueling the trakand boys

 

i Doubt they will even touch or attempt to do the Cleansing correct.

 

Tarwin’s Gap was their first shot at nailing a moment…they missed so wide of the mark i don’t see them hitting the bullseye anywhere else. 
 

I would feel more hopeful if it was worse. They got enough right in terms of cast and look and finding ways to adapt that I think they actually tried. This wasn’t the ashcan dumpster fire that was the Billy Zane buried pilot. They took their shot and it looked like they did the best they could, and it wasn’t nearly enough to make this go the distance. If they failed across the board then there is a chance to make adjustments and change direction. 

[Ryrin]

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Comic books are not known for their fidelity to a single narrative. The story the MCU is telling just picks and chooses from many different stories that have been told about its characters over the last 70 years. 

 

You simply can't compare the MCU to WoT. It's apples to oranges.

I feel that the show is apples to oranges when compared to the books. 

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Ryrin said:

I feel that the show is apples to oranges when compared to the books. 

Agreed. But the MCU is a bad way to start a comparison.

[fra85uk]

1 hour ago, DreadParrot said:

 

Too many deviations, too much rushing, and too many flat moments. 
 

I don’t see it making it past a second season, even if it did I don’t have faith they can execute the critical moments. When I heard they were adapting Game of Thrones I told every person I know that if they got three moments right I would forgive every other thing wrong.

 

the things I do for love…nailed that moment

 

jaimie Lannister sends his regards…heartbreaking and awesome 

 

you are going to fight that thing? I am going to kill that thing….Oberon vs Mountain was everything I prayed for. 
 

I have zero faith in Dumai Wells being done justice. 
 

I have zero faith in Matt dueling the trakand boys

 

 

I loved Mat schooling the two noble kids but it will never happen in the adabomination. Consider that show-Mat is not shown to be proficient in quarterstaff...

I also loved the Rand/Suroth duel but how could show-Rand fight a SWORDMASTER?

[WheelofJuke]

After sitting on it for a while, I'm rating the series' first season as a 3/10. 

 

A fine enough shell around this hot mess exists to keep it from being unwatchable, but just barely. 

 

-Inexcusably bad writing, especially dialogue. 

- Clunky story-telling and wooden acting (albeit, balanced with some fine individual performances here and there).

- Butchered, unfaithful, head-splittingly frustrating adaptation of the story. 

- Gross mismanagement of screentime for many characters. 

- Does not pass the "smell test" or gestalt....the few fine moments don't occur frequently enough to cobble together the disparate parts into a unifying whole.

- Underwhelming cgi/special effects. The best moments are the goriest/campiest bits.

- More cringe-inducing, forehead slapping, groan-eliciting moments than anything else in recent memory. Lots of LOLs at moments they were trying to be serious. 

 

- Music, title sequence, sets and costumes I can appreciate. Title sequence I love. 

- Not much else going to save this crud fest. 

 

- If interviews regarding season 2 mostly being about Moiraine /Lan "exploring feelings" are even close to being true, I'm out. I'm probably out anyway. 

 

To sum it up: utter, sheer disappointment. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by WheelofJuke

[Skipp]

36 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

I loved Mat schooling the two noble kids but it will never happen in the adabomination. Consider that show-Mat is not shown to be proficient in quarterstaff...

I also loved the Rand/Suroth duel but how could show-Rand fight a SWORDMASTER?

He wasn't shown to be proficient in tEotW either.  But I am also unsure if we will get the scene

[fra85uk]

58 minutes ago, Skipp said:

He wasn't shown to be proficient in tEotW either.  But I am also unsure if we will get the scene

It is mentioned however  (i am a few months away from the last reread of the first book) that both Abel and Mat are good with it.

But of course how could show-Abel teach something good to show-Mat?

That thing is lost, maybe they are going to give Mat something at some point...if they do not transform him in a forsaken or in the DO himself...what they Have done to my fav ?

[SingleMort]

I think these coversations might be better carried on in the predictions for Season 2 thread

[RhienneAgain]

I've sat on the last episode for a while now and had time to reflect on the season as a whole. I think as a book fan I'd give it 4/10 and as a non-reader 6/10.

 

Bits of the show have been done really well, and I feel the show has demonstrated it can deliver competently on original content from the books (e.g. Shadar Logoth, Tar Valon), and new material (e.g. the new plotting and scenes linked to Logain). Unfortunately for me, this delivery is very inconsistent, and I find myself having more moments of frustration and irritation each episode than I do joy or wonder.

 

I think as a book reader who read the series again and again over my formative years I have really strong attachments to some of the characters and I'm not going to get beyond being upset that the Lan, Nynaeve, Mat, etc. from the books are not going to make an appearance in the show.

 

There are three other things that prevent me from having an overall positive reaction to the series, and one of these is poor dialogue (modernisms like 'upbeat' and 'blow smoke up our asses' make me cringe so hard I've not crawled out from behind the sofa until the next scene has started).

 

The second is I don't like WoT being used to carry an agenda. In my opinion (as a woman), there is a feminist agenda being pushed by the show and it comes up too frequently in scenes for me to be able to just sit back and enjoy the story without feeling I am being told that the original world of WoT was not ok. 

 

Thirdly, I don't have confidence yet that the show can pull off the kind of drastic changes required while still being faithful to the spirit of the books. For example I have read that the Steppin episode is set up for later events in the show. However, this doesn't ring true to me. If it's set up for Lan and Moiraine's bond breaking then the events of episode 8 don't make much sense as Lan can't even tell whether the bond is masked or broken or whatever. And if it's set up for Alannah and Rand, then it also doesn't make sense to me as the episode doesn't convey that warders go into a death rage when their Aes Sedai dies, but instead suggests that Steppin is severely depressed by losing someone close to him/failing in his duty (which would have zero application or impact on Rand at SG). This makes me feel there is some self-indulgence or ego on the part of the writers pushing into the show to a degree I'm not comfortable with.

[WoTwasThat]

4 hours ago, RhienneAgain said:

I've sat on the last episode for a while now and had time to reflect on the season as a whole. I think as a book fan I'd give it 4/10 and as a non-reader 6/10.

 

Bits of the show have been done really well, and I feel the show has demonstrated it can deliver competently on original content from the books (e.g. Shadar Logoth, Tar Valon), and new material (e.g. the new plotting and scenes linked to Logain). Unfortunately for me, this delivery is very inconsistent, and I find myself having more moments of frustration and irritation each episode than I do joy or wonder.

 

I think as a book reader who read the series again and again over my formative years I have really strong attachments to some of the characters and I'm not going to get beyond being upset that the Lan, Nynaeve, Mat, etc. from the books are not going to make an appearance in the show.

 

There are three other things that prevent me from having an overall positive reaction to the series, and one of these is poor dialogue (modernisms like 'upbeat' and 'blow smoke up our asses' make me cringe so hard I've not crawled out from behind the sofa until the next scene has started).

 

The second is I don't like WoT being used to carry an agenda. In my opinion (as a woman), there is a feminist agenda being pushed by the show and it comes up too frequently in scenes for me to be able to just sit back and enjoy the story without feeling I am being told that the original world of WoT was not ok. 

 

Thirdly, I don't have confidence yet that the show can pull off the kind of drastic changes required while still being faithful to the spirit of the books. For example I have read that the Steppin episode is set up for later events in the show. However, this doesn't ring true to me. If it's set up for Lan and Moiraine's bond breaking then the events of episode 8 don't make much sense as Lan can't even tell whether the bond is masked or broken or whatever. And if it's set up for Alannah and Rand, then it also doesn't make sense to me as the episode doesn't convey that warders go into a death rage when their Aes Sedai dies, but instead suggests that Steppin is severely depressed by losing someone close to him/failing in his duty (which would have zero application or impact on Rand at SG). This makes me feel there is some self-indulgence or ego on the part of the writers pushing into the show to a degree I'm not comfortable with.

Yes. Very good summation. 

[WoTwasThat]

As I think more about it, I think the “if they’d only had more time” excuse might be totally backwards. Seems to me like part of the problem is that they had way too much time and were struggling to come up with ways to fill it.

 

Eight hours is a LOT of time. That’s the equivalent of a trilogy of feature length movies! To repeat: they had EIGHT HOURS to adapt ONE BOOK. Even less than one book because they cut Caemlyn (which I agree with). 

 

So it seems like they were trying to fill it up with other stuff. Ok - let’s accelerate Lan and Nynaeve. Let’s hook up Moraine and Siuan. Let’s do a story about a warder who loses his Aes Sedai. Let’s bring some of the Logain story into the foreground. Let’s set up this big “who is the dragon” mystery. Let’s get them into the White Tower. 

 

And look, at least some of this I’m ok with. The Logain thing was a smart move. Bringing in some White Tower was smart, too. But dang, this just doesn’t excuse the massive changes they made (and I’m not gonna detail those - I’ve done that repeatedly), especially when those changes really can’t be justified as “cuts to save time.”

 

They had eight hours. If they were looking to fill some of that, why not explain the distinction between Saidar and Saidin and the taint? Why not spend more than a couple of minutes in Shadar Logoth and the Ways, both of which were supposed to be major set pieces?! Why not actually do the Eye at least somewhat faithfully? Why not show LTT’s desperation? (Yes, I know they still can with other flashbacks, but they just aren’t going to sit right with that “happy tea in the nursery” scene.)

 

The Ways would have been an excellent and topical spot for a Moraine monologue about the taint upon Saidin, btw. Since, you know, that’s why the Ways are the way they are. 

[Cellardur]

I am seeing lots of complaints about Saidin and Saidar, but the these have been clearly explained in the short animations before each episode.

 

I thought the show expected everyone to watch the short animations before starting the first 6 episodes. They are only a couple of minutes long.

 

All the differences between Saidin and Saidar are clearly explained and how the taint came to be is layed out.

 

The Prologue from EoTW is animated and we get to see Ishamael taunt the Dragon. We learn that the Age of Legends was a peaceful time of bliss.

 

With all the information they have provided and taken the time to animate before each episode, I am going to trust that in the show the narrators are just unreliable.  

 

Edit 

 

We don't get to see Ishamael's taunting, but we see Lewis killing his family.

It's also implied the Dark One was waging a war, but it's not explicitly stated.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Cellardur

[Mirefox]

26 minutes ago, Cellardur said:

I am seeing lots of complaints about Saidin and Saidar, but the these have been clearly explained in the short animations before each episode.

 

I thought the show expected everyone to watch the short animations before starting the first 6 episodes. They are only a couple of minutes long.

 

All the differences between Saidin and Saidar are clearly explained and how the taint came to be is layed out.

 

The Prologue from EoTW is animated and we get to see Ishamael taunt the Dragon. We learn that the Age of Legends was a peaceful time of bliss.

 

With all the information they have provided and taken the time to animate before each episode, I am going to trust that in the show the narrators are just unreliable.  

 

Edit 

 

We don't get to see Ishamael's taunting, but we see Lewis killing his family.

It's also implied the Dark One was waging a war, but it's not explicitly stated.

I couldn’t agree with this any less than I do.  You might as well say that the show expects viewers to read the books to learn the details it doesn’t provide.  It is a massive cop out to leave things out of a show then provide bonus content to explain everything you failed to explain.

[wotfan4472]

With all the changes, I really enjoyed it. I cannot wait for season 2.

It is not exact to the first book, but for me, it is in parallel with it.

[Vartija]

I can see that the bonus content is something that will become more prevalent with streaming services. But I'm still not convinced it's good story telling to assume the viewer must watch bonus material to fully comprehend the story. It should be something that true fans might find interesting and entertaining, but to only show some aspects of the story as bonus material and assume that viewers should still integrate that material into the actual episodes is problematic. 

 

I still view these bonus contents as something nice to have but not necessary to understand the story. Kind of like the bonus material in DVD boxes. Just because it's nowadays possible to add immediate bonus content next to the episode, its shouldn't come at the expense of good world building within the actual episodes. 

[fra85uk]

Putting saidin/Saidar stuff in the extra is a dodgy move, not something to be praised.

 

By the end of S1, one of the key elements of the books has not been addressed clearly in-show and we are seeing really foggy stuff: Moraine saying that he can teach Rand, Ishy explaining Rand how to use the OP as it was Saidar.

[Gothic Flame]

 

Heh...'nuff said.