How did the show hold up for you?

[Spiritweaver1]

2 hours ago, LedZepMan said:

Anyone else super grumpy that they all let their horses go at the way gate? As if Lan would ever let Mandarb go! 

Sheesh

I am with you.  This is an example of trying to save money by not having to build a road system in the ways.  My grumpy based on this will be nothing compared to my grump if they decide to scrap the green man because the VFX is too expensive.  

[Wassup]

13 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

I am with you.  This is an example of trying to save money by not having to build a road system in the ways.  My grumpy based on this will be nothing compared to my grump if they decide to scrap the green man because the VFX is too expensive.  

I think you need to be prepared for grumpy. I can see him being cut because of budget, but also because he is not needed for the story. He will be hanging out with Tom Bombadil instead. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Wassup

[TheDreadReader]

2 hours ago, LedZepMan said:

Anyone else super grumpy that they all let their horses go at the way gate? As if Lan would ever let Mandarb go! 

Sheesh

 

Well, Mat can be a horse trader with horses now.  So, there's that.

 

 

[csmoptop]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Um, we're done with the Eye before book 2.

 

I know, I answered this already. I was mistaken, I explained how the mistake happened and I thanked Ralph for pointing it out, as shown below. ? 
 

23 hours ago, Ralph said:

Book 2 def not

 

I think only once in book 1, agreed besides Aiel and Jain

 

I plan to look a bit later to confirm. If you have chapter numbers of where it appears, please send

 

22 hours ago, csmoptop said:

Ralph, you are right, thanks. EotW is only referenced in dreams in book 1 since it's drained and done at the end of the book. I was starting a larger point that encompassed both books, went back and narrowed it to the Eye specifically, and forgot to remove the book 2 reference. 

 

Then I posted all the places where EotW is mentioned in book 1 in a very long message, as Ralph asked about that. There were quite a few. Having the ebooks is wonderful, since you can search for things quite easily. I gave away all my hardcovers when we moved several years ago as we had to downsize. That was sad! 

 

22 hours ago, csmoptop said:

There are quite a few references to the Eye of the World in book 1 in several chapters, before Moiraine tells them they need to go to it. Here they are:
Chapter 14, The Stag and Lion, page 202, Ba'alzamon to Rand in a dream - “Did they tell you the Eye of the World would serve you?"
Ch 15, Strangers and Friends, pg 224, Mat, Rand & Perrin telling Thom about their dreams, Mat to Thom - "He said so many things. Crazy things. All that about Lews Therin Kinslayer, and Artur Hawkwing. And the Eye of the World.” Then Thom tells them - “As big a legend as the Horn of Valere, at least in the Borderlands. Up there, young men go hunting the Eye of the World the way young men from Illian hunt the Horn.” 

Ch 24, Flight Down the Arinelle, pg 335, Ba'alzamon to Rand in a dream - “The Light will not help you, boy, and the Eye of the World will not serve you."

Ch. 25, The Traveling People, pg 356, Raen tells Elyas and Perin about a Far Dareis Mai's dying words - ‘Leafblighter means to blind the Eye of the World, Lost One. He means to slay the Great Serpent. Warn the People, Lost One. Sightburner comes. Tell them to stand ready for He Who Comes With the Dawn.  Then Perrin reflects on her words - "The Eye of the World. That had been in his dreams, more than once." 

Ch 27, Shelter from the Storm, pg 385, Ba'alzamon to Perrin in a dream - “The Eye of the World will consume you."

Ch 33, The Dark Awaits, pg 461, Ba'alzamon to Rand in a dream - "The Eye of the World will never serve you."

Ch 42, Remembrance of Dreams, pg 593, a few references. First, Loial to Moiraine, Lan and all the Emonds Fielders about a man who came to Stedding Shangtai - "...he told a curious tale which he said he meant to carry to Tar Valon. He said the Dark One intended to blind the Eye of the World, and slay the Great Serpent, kill time itself." And then Perrin tells them what the Tinkers told them about the Eye. And Rand, Mat and Perrin tell them what they dreamed about the Eye. 

And then, pg 596, after all that foreshadowing, Moiraine tells them all - "And just at this point we hear of a threat to the Eye of the World, not from one source, but three, each seeming independent of the others. The Pattern is forcing our path. The Pattern still weaves itself around you three, but what hand now sets the warp, and what hand controls the shuttle? Has the Dark One’s prison weakened enough for him to exert that much control?”

She goes on to discuss this further say they need to get to the Eye quickly, which is all we get in the show. Just one of many things handled very sloppily.

 

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

The show hasn't been out for 6 weeks - why would they post a review by someone that didn't get a sneak peek?  Are you a critic that received early access?

As to this, so very sorry. There have been six episodes out, so it was only five weeks ago. I am not a critic who received early access, just a regular schmoe who loved the books. 

[Spiritweaver1]

So in my wandering in the wilderness of my own mind and feelings about this show I have come to believe the ending of this series will likely determine whether I continue to watch next season in spite of my current like rating.   This show is starting to feel cheap.  The latest example is the decision to not make the ways able to take the horses.  I very much fear that the next cut will be the blight which would be difficult to capture well without spending some money on VFX.  Then the green man.  if they don't do a decent job here then I fear it will be too cheap for me.  There is a lot of fantastical stuff coming up which they need to capture well.  Skimming anyone? My calculation has LOTR spent $24.4M per hour back in the day with this shows budget reported as averaging $10M.  One way to move forward is to approach whoever owns the VFX rights to LOTR and license and modify the VFX models for the ents to use for the green man.  They could use the also use elephant like critters for the S'redit.  The Ringwraith mounts for the to'raken.   They are on their own for the tel'aran'rhiod effects where considerable and critical portions of the plot take place.  Ishy has been so fake so far.  I am sure the reason we haven't had more dreams is that making a realistic human whose eyes and mouth are flame is too expensive. I have actually started wondering if the costs of the new studio  facility aren't included in the per episode costs instead of directly producing the show.    Anyway no danger, at this point, that in future years I will chose to make my WOT fix the show rather than the books.  I do that for the three LOTR movies.  Not for The Hobbit.

[Ralph]

3 minutes ago, csmoptop said:

 

 

As to this, so very sorry. There have been six episodes out, so it was only five weeks ago. I am not a critic who received early access, just a regular schmoe who loved the books. 

 

Was released 19th November, first three episodes at once ?

[csmoptop]

7 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Was released 19th November, first three episodes at once ?

Right. I can't see when my original reviews were posted since they haven't been posted on imdb and Rotten Tomatoes or they're buried somewhere after the threatening nastygram from Amazon. I suppose it just seems like forever since I am so disappointed in what I've seen. Not too mention senior moments keep creeping in. I always say I'm going to be *really* funny when I'm 80. My brother says I'll be the little old lady with the ear trumpet who doesn't know my own name, lol. Maybe that time has already arrived? I guess it's a good thing I haven't joined the forum to comment any earlier than I did. ?

[csmoptop]

I don't know if I can bring myself to watch the last two episodes. My late twenty-something son comes over to watch it with us as he read and loved all the books as well. He's also super disturbed and disappointed in what's happened so far, but he wants to stick it out till the end of season 1. My early-30s daughter hasn't started watching it yet as she wants to see it all at once, but she is hearing from us and many other book fans how bad the show is, so she has trepidations about the experience. My husband, who we've been trying to convince to read the books for at least 15 years, is watching with us. He doesn't like the show at all, but is just watching it with us to be social. He read and loved LOTR and the movies and read and loved the Chronicles of Narnia, so he does enjoy some fantasy. I'm sure he'll never read the books after this, even though we are assuring him they were worlds better. Oh, well. 

I think I am going to bow out of the discussion here. I may be back to react to comments from time to time. Thanks, all, for your indulgence with my opinions and my errors.

[LordyLord]

Now that we are 80 percent done with the Show, I can see whats Rafe's vision for the series were.

 

Eye of the World is a Generic Fantasy in structure. Rafe had the job of adapting this book in a way that didnt make it look like a LOTR ripoff.

 

Below was his Plan to do so.

 

1.Make Morainne the main Character which will emphasize the Wheel of time as a unique Femnist Fantasy.

2.Increasing the Role of Aes Sedai /White tower politics will emphasize Wheel of time as a unique Femnist Fantasy

3. Dragon Mystery to distinguish show from generic Chosen one narritives

4.Dragon candidates to include Females because show is to be Marketed as Femnist Fantasy

5.EF 5 will be aged up to be sexier, darker and less like Hobbits. Dark pasts will be added to make them nuanced.

6. Female Characters must be given Great prominence in the story.

 

Now here's my comment on the vision

 

Response to 1: This was a mistake. I realise that now and I apologise to all who said so. The Main characters should be Emond Fields 5.The Focus of the Season and indeed the series should have been the 5. Sadly Id argue Morainne and Lan have taken lead of this show whilst sidelining the main characters

 

Response to 2: This was a good smart choice judging by the Non book reader reactions. The Problem with it is Execution. The Addition of the Aes Sedai/White tower storyline should not come at the expense of the main storyline EF5. It should work either secondary to the main plotline OR Enhance the main plotline. So Far only Episode 4 did this right

 

Response to 3: This was a good smart choice judging by the Non book reader reactionsThe Problem with it is Execution.To maintain the mystery the show has gone overboard with hiding Rands character resulting in a Bland main character. To make the Mystery work all they needed to do is hide Tam's Flashback and postpone Meeting with Trakands.. The other special qualities of Rand like his Heron sword and his '' Heart and void'' should actually have been played up this making him an interesting character

 

Response to 4: This was a good smart choice judging by the Non book reader reactions.

Response to 5:This was a good smart choice judging by the Non book reader reactions.

 

Response to 6: This was a good smart choice judging by the Non book reader reactions.

The Problem with it is Execution.They have made female characters awesome...but some Male characters are forgotten.

 

The Biggest example of this is Egwene getting to stab Valda.... not Perrin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yojimbo]

2 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

I am with you.  This is an example of trying to save money by not having to build a road system in the ways.  My grumpy based on this will be nothing compared to my grump if they decide to scrap the green man because the VFX is too expensive.  

Get used to disappointment. (sorry, I watched Princess Bride again recently and tend to slip in quotes from it for days afterwards.)

[Wassup]

24 minutes ago, LordyLord said:

Response to 6: This was a good smart choice judging by the Non book reader reactions.

The Problem with it is Execution.They have made female characters awesome...but some Male characters are forgotten.

 

The Biggest example of this is Egwene getting to stab Valda.... not Perrin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think this is a good example, especially of a change that was unnecessary.  They could have had one or two WCs in there with Child Valda when Perrin gets loose.  He goes berserk, grabs an axe, and cleaves the generic WCs while flashing the yellow eyes at Valda.  This does a few things:

1. Perrin would get an axe to carry.
2. He would have to deal with the emotional impact of killing people with the axe.
3. The WCs would have a good reason to go after Perrin specifically.
4. Egwene would still get points from the viewers for standing up to CV and freeing Perring with the OP.

Heck, I am still not sure what the change in his character arc was supposed to do.  Does any non-reader think of him as a blacksmith or as the blacksmith's husband?  I do not recall seeing him do any work at all.

[AdamA]

1 hour ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Ishy has been so fake so far.  I am sure the reason we haven't had more dreams is that making a realistic human whose eyes and mouth are flame is too expensive. I have actually started wondering if the costs of the new studio  facility aren't included in the per episode costs instead of directly producing the show.  

American Gods had a very good looking "man with flames for eyes" character, much better than Ishamael in WoT so far. But American Gods also got cancelled in part because it was overrunning its budget.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

2 hours ago, jonsnow84 said:

For me this felt a lot more like seeing MTV take a crack at Shannara than HBO taking on Game of Thrones. At least with GOT they had the excuse of running outnof source material. Not sure what Judkins excuse is ?

Lol Shannara Chronicles is one of the worst adaptations of a fantasy novel I've ever seen, and it doesn't get nearly enough credit for being as bad as it is. Not quite Eragon, but close. 

 

That being said, I think if you laid it out on a spectrum with Shannara on one end and GoT on the other, WoT would be right in the middle and maybe a tick or two towards Shannara's end. Shannara was a terrible adaptation and also a total disaster. WoT is just a bad adaptation and a decent but often cringy TV show. 

[jonsnow84]

To be fair I couldn't even stomach a full episode of Shannara but this adaption hurts me more if that makes sense lol

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

On 12/11/2021 at 10:10 AM, Skipp said:

Say it with me "THIS WAS NOT A JUDGEMENT ON ALL MEN "

Right. Absolutely correct. 

 

The man judging shows up everywhere else. 

• Change to the Tinker leadership. Totally pointless, but they made a woman the leader instead of a man like in the books. 
• Lan disobeying Moiraine and entering Shadar Logoth when in the books it was her idea. Show portrays it as Lan's mistake. 
• Egwene w/Valda compared to Rand w/Darkfriend girl. Egwene is strong and gets to stab Valda while Rand runs away from a short, stubby lady who isn't even paying attention to him. 
• Abell Cauthon's character
• No mention of Village Council. Women's Circle given spotlight 
• Nynaeve learns to track because all wisdoms track in the show as opposed to being taught by her father in the books. 
• Playing up the "Nynaeve snuck up on Lan" thing. The writers are just gloating at this point. 
• Egwene placed on equal power level to Logain, as if strength in the power were some kind of currency and Egwene had been wronged in the books for being weaker than any man. 
• Rand and Egwene's conversation about Moiraine in episode 2. In the books, it's framed as both parties being out for themselves. Egwene defends Moiraine because Moiraine tells her nice things about herself, Rand mistrusts her because he doesn't like her closeness with Moiraine. Show just portrays Rand as wrong and stupid and Egwene as right. 
• Tam, a heron marked blademaster, loses to a Trolloc while Nynaeve kills one with ease. 
• Master Luhan, Perrin's male role model, completely excised from his backstory. 
• In not explaining the Saidin/Saidar divide, the show has not shied away from implying that it's men who are tainted and not the male half of the One Power that they draw on which taints them. (This will likely be explained later, so I'm not too bothered by it.) 
• In the books, it takes 6 Aes Sedai to shield Logain. 2 in the show. 
• Mat given a vice to make him "interesting". Perrin kills his wife for the sake of "character development." Meanwhile, Egwene is now a member of the Women's Circle and Nynaeve is superwoman. 

Look closely at the show and you'll find that there's not a single male character in the show who has been leveled up from their book version. Meanwhile, most of the women have been given additional skills or abilities or just had their power levels inflated. 

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Right. Absolutely correct. 

 

The man judging shows up everywhere else. 

I know this is a theme many people are seeing, but I have to admit I just dont see it. And I am curious how many of those who are seeing it expected it beforehand, due to their perception of RJII's statement about feminism and gender. 

 

2 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

• Change to the Tinker leadership. Totally pointless, but they made a woman the leader instead of a man like in the books.

In the books Ila does most of the talking, especially to Perrin about the philosophy. Difference is only the greeting. And she is a good actress. I don't see this as symptomatic at all. We've been through this many times on this forum. (I strongly disliked the whole fakeout making the Tinkers seem a threat btw.)

• Lan disobeying Moiraine and entering Shadar Logoth when in the books it was her idea. Show portrays it as Lan's mistake. 

In the book it was his idea and she vetoed it until there was no choice. 

• Egwene w/Valda compared to Rand w/Darkfriend girl. Egwene is strong and gets to stab Valda while Rand runs away from a short, stubby lady who isn't even paying attention to him. 

Can't compare different situations. Has been discussed ad nauseam. 

• Abell Cauthon's character

And Natti's

• No mention of Village Council. Women's Circle given spotlight 

Women's Circle in the show clearly means all women, not some part of govt. Therefore this is meaningless. 

• Nynaeve learns to track because all wisdoms track in the show as opposed to being taught by her father in the books. 

If the point was elevating the woman they'd have had her taught by her mother. The point was having her as an outsider, and we haven't yet seen why they wanted that. 

• Playing up the "Nynaeve snuck up on Lan" thing. The writers are just gloating at this point. 

Again, nothing to do with being female. Just making it cooler to show. May well be silly, but not symptomatic. 

• Egwene placed on equal power level to Logain, as if strength in the power were some kind of currency and Egwene had been wronged in the books for being weaker than any man. 

Moiraine says she doesn't know. And is that clearly wrong in the books and other Canon material? I don't recall. Or perhaps you mean Nynaeve being stronger. But either way not symptomatic. 

• Rand and Egwene's conversation about Moiraine in episode 2. In the books, it's framed as both parties being out for themselves. Egwene defends Moiraine because Moiraine tells her nice things about herself, Rand mistrusts her because he doesn't like her closeness with Moiraine. Show just portrays Rand as wrong and stupid and Egwene as right. 

I don't agree at all. I think we have seen Rand is right not to trust her. She has explicitly said she is happily killing four of the five very soon. 

• Tam, a heron marked blademaster, loses to a Trolloc while Nynaeve kills one with ease. 

No comparison of situations. 

• Master Luhan, Perrin's male role model, completely excised from his backstory. 

To fridge Laila instead, yes. 

• In not explaining the Saidin/Saidar divide, the show has not shied away from implying that it's men who are tainted and not the male half of the One Power that they draw on which taints them. (This will likely be explained later, so I'm not too bothered by it.) 

Liandrin has said this. 

• In the books, it takes 6 Aes Sedai to shield Logain. 2 in the show. 

For simplicity. And while stating many times he is the strongest channeler they have ever seen. Or are you suggesting it will take 6 men to shield one woman? 

• Mat given a vice to make him "interesting". Perrin kills his wife for the sake of "character development." Meanwhile, Egwene is now a member of the Women's Circle and Nynaeve is superwoman. 

Member of Women's circle is not of significance, as in the show it just means an adult woman. Rest is to fit with their characteristics in the books, and make them more visible. Tbh, you could argue exactly this about the books, in which Mat and Perrin are much weaker personalities (at first) than Egwene and Nynaeve. And many book fans (myself included) strongly dislike Egwene and/or Nynaeve because of this. 

 

2 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Look closely at the show and you'll find that there's not a single male character in the show who has been leveled up from their book version. Meanwhile, most of the women have been given additional skills or abilities or just had their power levels inflated. 

Moiraine is weaker imo. Logain is far more interesting.

 

Who has new skills? Siuan is a dreamer instead of seeing ta'veren. In the books Egwene had basically every skill that exists, up to and including the new weave in the last battle. 

 

Not sure what else you are referring to, except Nynaeve's moa, which was very very overdone, but I don't see it as inflating power level particularly

Edited December 14, 2021 by Ralph
Chandelier!!??

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

4 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Moiraine is weaker imo. Logain is far more interesting.

Who has new skills?

Moiraine actually is somewhat weaker, you're right about this. But my point isn't just about power levels or skills. It's about the characters' treatment by the narrative. Moiraine may not have shown off as much with the power as in the books, but she is waaaaaaay more important in the show as are most of the female characters. All the male characters have had their significance/capabilities diminished. 

 

You say that you don't see the pattern, but I just gave a massive list of all the decisions the show has made which directly influence male characters for the worse/female characters for the better. 

 

If there's a similar list enumerating all the ways that the female characters have been nerfed in comparison to their book counterparts, I would be open to seeing it. 

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Moiraine actually is somewhat weaker, you're right about this. But my point isn't just about power levels or skills. It's about the characters' treatment by the narrative. Moiraine may not have shown off as much with the power as in the books, but she is waaaaaaay more important in the show as are most of the female characters. All the male characters have had their significance/capabilities diminished. 

 

You say that you don't see the pattern, but I just gave a massive list of all the decisions the show has made which directly influence male characters for the worse/female characters for the better. 

 

If there's a similar list enumerating all the ways that the female characters have been nerfed in comparison to their book counterparts, I would be open to seeing it. 

 

She is not really more important, just more in focus. As is Logain. 

 

I don't need a list, I just need to disagree with your list delineating a pattern, which I have done above. There are a few I agree show females are more powerful than could have, but in each I understand a reason. And I don't think that is enough to show a pattern. 

 

Of course it is possible, but I don't see the evidence. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Right. Absolutely correct. 

 

The man judging shows up everywhere else. 

• Change to the Tinker leadership. Totally pointless, but they made a woman the leader instead of a man like in the books. 
• Lan disobeying Moiraine and entering Shadar Logoth when in the books it was her idea. Show portrays it as Lan's mistake. 
• Egwene w/Valda compared to Rand w/Darkfriend girl. Egwene is strong and gets to stab Valda while Rand runs away from a short, stubby lady who isn't even paying attention to him. 
• Abell Cauthon's character
• No mention of Village Council. Women's Circle given spotlight 
• Nynaeve learns to track because all wisdoms track in the show as opposed to being taught by her father in the books. 
• Playing up the "Nynaeve snuck up on Lan" thing. The writers are just gloating at this point. 
• Egwene placed on equal power level to Logain, as if strength in the power were some kind of currency and Egwene had been wronged in the books for being weaker than any man. 
• Rand and Egwene's conversation about Moiraine in episode 2. In the books, it's framed as both parties being out for themselves. Egwene defends Moiraine because Moiraine tells her nice things about herself, Rand mistrusts her because he doesn't like her closeness with Moiraine. Show just portrays Rand as wrong and stupid and Egwene as right. 
• Tam, a heron marked blademaster, loses to a Trolloc while Nynaeve kills one with ease. 
• Master Luhan, Perrin's male role model, completely excised from his backstory. 
• In not explaining the Saidin/Saidar divide, the show has not shied away from implying that it's men who are tainted and not the male half of the One Power that they draw on which taints them. (This will likely be explained later, so I'm not too bothered by it.) 
• In the books, it takes 6 Aes Sedai to shield Logain. 2 in the show. 
• Mat given a vice to make him "interesting". Perrin kills his wife for the sake of "character development." Meanwhile, Egwene is now a member of the Women's Circle and Nynaeve is superwoman. 

Look closely at the show and you'll find that there's not a single male character in the show who has been leveled up from their book version. Meanwhile, most of the women have been given additional skills or abilities or just had their power levels inflated. 

Why is this supposed to bother me? Do you not think that we are going to see that dynamic shift over the course of the series?

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Why is this supposed to bother me? Do you not think that we are going to see that dynamic shift over the course of the series?

Why would it? The writers have already shown their willingness to diminish the male characters while presenting female characters who are beyond reproach. Why would that possibly change? 

 

That's fine. If you're alright with the show writers using their power to diminish male characters in season 1, you'll be fine with it in season 7. That's just your schtick. For some of us, it's really distracting. 

 

Things I am mostly positive are not going to happen: 

 

1. Mat saving Nynaeve and Egwene in Tear. Never going to happen. 

2. Rand/Taim commanding the Aes Sedai to kneel. Not allowed. 

3. Mat getting his foxhead medallion and becoming a constant source of frustration for Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne. 

4. Rand entering Rhuidean with just Mat. Egwene is definitely going to be there for some reason. 

5. Berelain being portrayed as a seductress like in the books. Very problematic. Reinforces a negative stereotype. 

6. Lanfear being evil because she was jealous that Lews Therin chose another woman over her. Also reinforces a negative stereotype. 

7. Egwene running off to chase Black Ajah. Show Egwene will not be allowed to make such an egregious mistake. She'll be kidnapped or something. 

8. I will be surprised (not shocked) if Nynaeve has a block in this version of the story. This one might actually happen. 

9. Mat as a loveable womanizer. NEVER going to happen. Book Mat is a literal rapist by today's standards. 

 

It should go without saying that I can't prove any of this, but I will take great pleasure in referencing this list if it turns out that I'm right. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

The writers have already shown their willingness to diminish the male characters while presenting female characters who are beyond reproach.

No they haven't.

They've put female characters forward. That's all. No male characters have been "diminished" and none of the female characters are "beyond reproach". The show has presented viewers with a world where females occupy positions of power. That's it. 

 

Most of the things on your list will make it. Some may not. There's no giant conspiracy.

 

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

29 minutes ago, Ralph said:

And I don't think that is enough to show a pattern. 

I guess I'm just curious what would be enough for a pattern, because it really does seem as if almost every male character has been leveled down in some way meanwhile all the women have remained the same or been leveled up. Do you think that this hasn't happened basically across the board? 

 

I just keep coming back to the show's approach to Mat and Perrin compared to Egwene and Nynaeve. 

 

Mat and Perrin are both made to do terrible things in the name of their "characters." Meanwhile Egwene is elevated to the Women's Circle as part of her backstory and both she and Nynaeve are turned into Dragon candidates and Ta'veren. 

 

Again, if anyone on this forum could come up with a comparable list to show the nerfing of the female characters and prove that I really am just drawing from a biased sample size, I would legitimately reconsider my position on this. 

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

They've put female characters forward. That's all. No male characters have been "diminished" and none of the female characters are "beyond reproach". The show has presented viewers with a world where females occupy positions of power. That's it. 

Putting female characters forward is one thing. Leveling them all up dramatically is something else entirely. 

 

Moiraine is now the main character of the story

Nynaeve is a potential dragon, master tracker, and comes out on top of every interaction she's in. 

Nynaeve is adept at hand to hand combat now, for some reason. (I can't confirm this, but I'm pretty sure she's second to Lan in on-screen kills for the series)

Egwene is now as powerful as Logain and a member of the Women's Circle (the ruling body of her community!) when the series begins. 

Egwene is maturely dealing with the end of her and Rand's relationship meanwhile he acts like a child. 

The leader of the Tinkers is now a woman for no reason other than the writers didn't want it to be a man. 

 

Compare that to....

 

Rand is a side character

Tam's influence on Rand has been greatly diminished 

Perrin is a wife murderer

Mat is a thief

Abel Cauthon is a drunk abuser

Master Luhan isn't even there

Thom can barely sing or play an instrument (this one's a little petty haha)

Lan is fine, but notice how none of the male characters have received any sort of power up like the females have? What are any of the male characters better at than they were in the books? Go on. 

 

Character development for males = Dark past. Mistakes. Flaws. Inner demons. 

Character development for females = Good at everything. Super powerful. Just, like, so good and great. So great. Literally the best. 

 

Pushing the female characters forward would have meant giving each more screen time and developing their characters more. But that's not the only thing they've done, and it's obvious. It's all totally pointless and serves no other purpose than to gratify the writers' weird ideas about what a "strong" female character actually entails. 

[Ralph]

12 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

I guess I'm just curious what would be enough for a pattern, because it really does seem as if almost every male character has been leveled down in some way meanwhile all the women have remained the same or been leveled up. Do you think that this hasn't happened basically across the board? 

 

I just keep coming back to the show's approach to Mat and Perrin compared to Egwene and Nynaeve. 

 

Mat and Perrin are both made to do terrible things in the name of their "characters." Meanwhile Egwene is elevated to the Women's Circle as part of her backstory and both she and Nynaeve are turned into Dragon candidates and Ta'veren. 

 

Again, if anyone on this forum could come up with a comparable list to show the nerfing of the female characters and prove that I really am just drawing from a biased sample size, I would legitimately reconsider my position on this. 

 

Mat has not done anything terrible, and Perrin was accidental although admittedly terrible. And the point is that in the books they have major internal conflicts, and Eg and N do not have this in the same way. In The Books! 

 

I have already pointed out the WC in the show just means all adult women, so it is meaningless. Egwene has not been elevated. And tbh she was elevated far too much in the books, although not yet at this stage. 

 

Ta'veren was argued for ever in the forums at the time the books were written, because it was basically just RJ decided. Egwene in particular did lots of ta'veren type things. Dragon candidates true but I don't see any significance, and will be gone next episode. 

 

But I responded to your list point by point earlier. 

 

Curious - did you expect this or is it something you have picked up totally out of the blue upon watching? 

 

 

Re your second list, I expect 123478 to be in. And I won't miss 5 at all

 

9 has already been shown a bit in ep 1 and 3, although in 3 he fails. If missed out I don't think this is the reason. And they won't show Tylin turning the tables on him (literal rapist) for sure. 

 

 

[Ralph]

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Putting female characters forward is one thing. Leveling them all up dramatically is something else entirely. 

 

Moiraine is now the main character of the story

-

not true. She is the main focus of season 1 in order to make it less obvious who so the DR. And you admitted they have made her weaker, imo both in the Power and in personality. 

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

 

Nynaeve is a potential dragon, master tracker, and comes out on top of every interaction she's in. 

 

Only the DR is not like the books ?

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

 

 

Nynaeve is adept at hand to hand combat now, for some reason. (I can't confirm this, but I'm pretty sure she's second to Lan in on-screen kills for the series)

Really? Lan killed at least twenty Trollocs in Ep1. She has killed one. Perrin has killed one Trolloc and one wife. Rand has killed one. Egwene has injured one WC. 

 

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Egwene is now as powerful as Logain and a member of the Women's Circle (the ruling body of her community!) when the series begins. 

But it is not the ruling body in the show. Did you read my responses earlier? And we don't know if she is as powerful as Logain, and I asked if you have canon source that she is weaker in the books. 

 

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Egwene is maturely dealing with the end of her and Rand's relationship meanwhile he acts like a child. 

Don't see this

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

The leader of the Tinkers is now a woman for no reason other than the writers didn't want it to be a man. 

Not really

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

 

Compare that to....

 

Rand is a side character

Not at all

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Tam's influence on Rand has been greatly diminished 

Not at all

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Perrin is a wife murderer

True

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Mat is a thief

I have yet to see this

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Abel Cauthon is a drunk abuser

No reason to think he is a drunk. His wife is though. 

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Master Luhan isn't even there

Nor is Mistress Luhhan and her frying pan

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Thom can barely sing or play an instrument (this one's a little petty haha)

No response needed

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Lan is fine, but notice how none of the male characters have received any sort of power up like the females have? What are any of the male characters better at than they were in the books? Go on. 

Name one woman who is more powerful. I haven't seen any. I assume you mean Nynaeve but I don't see that she is more powerful

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

 

Character development for males = Dark past. Mistakes. Flaws. Inner demons. 

Like the books

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Character development for females = Good at everything. Super powerful. Just, like, so good and great. So great. Literally the best. 

Like the books. Did you like Egwene in the books? 

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

 

Pushing the female characters forward would have meant giving each more screen time and developing their characters more. But that's not the only thing they've done, and it's obvious. It's all totally pointless and serves no other purpose than to gratify the writers' weird ideas about what a "strong" female character actually entails.