On "Wokeness" and the Wheel of Time - Be Thoughtful in Responding

[Ryan al'Thor]

7 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

There was the term adversary used in Eye of the World I believe which could potentially be applied to whoever the Dark One opponent is in any given age. Did RJ actually say Amerasu specifically was a "female" dragon or just an exemple of a hero that could be spun out if a female hero was needed?

The latter

[DaddyFinn]

Coming back to the skin color discussion. I really don't see the problem.

 

[TheDreadReader]

14 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

There was the term adversary used in Eye of the World I believe which could potentially be applied to whoever the Dark One opponent is in any given age. Did RJ actually say Amerasu specifically was a "female" dragon or just an exemple of a hero that could be spun out if a female hero was needed?

 

There is a quote somewhere that says that it is the later.   Rand/LTT gets spun out when needed.  The other female soul gets spun out when that is needed.   So, if Rafe's statement about souls being genderless holds true then they would now be the same person in each turning regardless of which gender the person is.

 

Personally, this destroys my head canon theory that LTT was not the "Champion of the Light" in the AoL but became it because the AoL was a "draw" (which RJ referenced as a possible outcome in a few appearances).  That may fall into looney theory land though.

 

[TheDreadReader]

Since, quotes from Rafe are all the rage today... How about this one?

 

“One thing we’re trying to hide from the audience is who the Dragon Reborn is, it’s the mystery of the show as we start to unravel this story,” he said. “People who have read the books will know, of course. The first book is told from the Dragon Reborn’s perspective but the whole book series is an ensemble piece. One of the defining things about the book series is the different POV characters, [which we leaned into]. This show is the first fantasy series to have half of those POVs from women, so this is a really incredible ensemble piece in the way the book series does in its entirety.”

 

https://deadline.com/2021/11/the-wheel-of-time-mat-cauthon-role-donal-finn-rafe-jenkins-plans-amazon-series-1234870995/

 

[Rose]

33 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 As a final aside: Rand's kids were supposed to be weird. It's been said they channel the one power at all times. That they channel both Saidin and Saidar. For all we know, the 4th age spun out "trans" souls.

 

I had totally forgotten about this.

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, Rose said:

 

I had totally forgotten about this.

A lot of it's also speculation of what is weird.

[Tim]

I guess the perspective I come to with this is:
 

1. From the moment I learned that WOT was being made into a TV show I assumed that it would be very different to the books, due to a variety of factors including the need to rationalise length, the need to rationalise characters, the need to simplify both plotting and background-lore, and then more practical issues like not having twenty elaborate city-sets per season. Obviously, all of those factors are still playing into the decisions being made, but if anything the show looks more faithful to the books than I would have expected.

 

2. The adjustments that really seem to really bother people are not those reflecting the above, but rather changes around issues of race (though as discussed exhaustively above whether these are "changes" from the books is contested), gender and sexuality. (And some of the adjustments cited seem really minor, like Nynaeve being able to sneak up on Lan rather than being able to sneak up to within a couple of metres of him.)

3. This is despite the fact that I would have said that the single most defining feature of WOT is not its "gender essentialism" (scare-quoting that because the phrase does not mean the same thing in a WOT context as it would IRL) or even background lore but rather the sheer complexity of plotting and interacting characters (much more so than for ASOIAF, let alone LOTR) - i.e. the one thing we know will need to be heavily sacrificed in order to make a TV version.

4. The common explanation for that distinction, including above, is "well, the changes in (1) above are necessary whereas the changes in (2) are unnecessary." Well, that's one way to look at it. But I don't think we can quite divide them that simply.

5. Perhaps, more accurately, we might say that the changes in (1) are driven by economic imperatives that "we" accept as being a precondition, whereas the changes in (2) are driven by motivations that have only recently become linked to economic imperatives,  such that there is disagreement as to whether they are or should be preconditions - and to the extent that they are, this is considered some failing - i.e. "necessary" versus "unnecessary" really just means "an imperative I accept and (at some level respect) versus one I do not".

6. Fact is, though, the changes in (1) and (2) are all changes, and I tend to think the changes in (1) are (all other things being equal) likely to produce greater deviations from the books overall. And once we accept that, it really becomes a question of whether we accept/respect the motivations for the changes. 

7. The suggestion that "the plot shouldn't change to accommodate what is maybe 1% of the population IRL" is precisely a view as to whether certain imperatives ought to be respected. These are things about which reasonable people can disagree (though how they express that disagreement may cast light on whether they are in fact a reasonable actor) - but I don't think there's any getting around the fact that saying "I think WOT should remain a world which effectively does not allow for transgendered people except by the intervention of the DO" is a statement of relative levels of respect - for the books versus the position of transgender people.

8. This is not a binary question, and it can be resolved in a variety of ways. Like pretty much everyone in this thread it seems, I can envision a number of ways in which the show could choose to deal with gender and sexuality which, while purportedly politically progressive and thoughtful, is in fact ham-fisted and shallow and unpersuasive and damaging to the show's quality. I'm hopeful that the show manages these issues well, but I won't know until I see it.

9. But it seems telling that a lot of people consider even the attempt to manage these issues to be highly offensive, and are using examples like Nynaeve killing a trolloc or the prospect of souls not being gendered as a sign of some monumental failing and/or callous disregard on the part of the showrunners. Look, maybe we will all conclude that the show disrespects its source material, but everything I've read from Rafe suggests rather that he is trying very hard to balance his respect for the books with his respect for other things - like the inherent dignity and self-worth of trans people. At least prima facie, that seems like a decent objective to me. 

[Rose]

I just want to say, @Tim, I really appreciate your comments and perspectives on here. Thank you.

[TheMountain]

I forgot that Mat's memories are *probably* harvested and given to him by the Finns, not his past lives.

 

However... what if Lews Therin was a woman? Or if the DR was? Remember how Rand eventually became one with his past self and remembered his previous life? Would't this cause *major* gender identity and body dysmorphia issues? Would we get a sexually confused Dragon Reborn?

 

Rand in the igloo: "I feel like I've done this before.... except... it was.... a little... different...." 

 

Lol..

[TheMountain]

“Brandon is super honest, saying, ‘I don’t think this works, for this reason,’ and then I’m like ‘OK I have to pay serious attention to this,’” Judkins revealed. “And then there have been times to where I’m like, ‘No, this is why we’re doing it. It’s a choice and I actually think it really works and it’s going to work for us long-term.’ And then we agree to disagree on it.”

-Rafe

Edited November 11, 2021 by TheMountain

[MasterAblar]

36 minutes ago, Tim said:

I think WOT should remain a world which effectively does not allow for transgendered people except by the intervention of the DO

 

This simply isn't true though. Just because transgender people were not represented does not mean the WoT world as it is denies their existence. You can fit transgender people into the world without messing with souls dichotomy.

 

In any case I imagine the removal the male/female is less to do with the representation of transgender individuals and more to do with the fact that the implied rigidity makes some people uncomfortable.

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

Now, to WoT lore.

 

Binary Male/Female genders, Saidar/Saidin tied to the soul. The primary ripple effect of tying the souls gender to Saidar/Saidin, is to explain Halima.

 

Remove Halima from the equation, remove the "Soul Gender" concept, or alter it as such that your souls gender is assigned at birth, it's possible to keep that souls gender until it's spun out again, and assigned a gender.

 

Even then, we have a Saidar/Saidin women/man binary that's still not a "woke" magic system.

 

We still don't know, if they've even kept Saidar/Saidin in the show, or if they scrapped it entirely, or how they're going to explain only men get the taint.

 

 

 

In one of the IGN videos when Rafe talked about the corruption I think he used the phrase connection to the one power.   It is possible that they have removed the dualistic one power and replaced it with one power with two connections.   One is corrupted.  The other remains uncorrupted. 

 

I could see the ungendered soul, one power with two connections, being easier to work with (especially if you want to add trans characters).  

 

   

 

 

[TheDreadReader]

9 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

“Brandon is super honest, saying, ‘I don’t think this works, for this reason,’ and then I’m like ‘OK I have to pay serious attention to this,’” Judkins revealed. “And then there have been times to where I’m like, ‘No, this is why we’re doing it. It’s a choice and I actually think it really works and it’s going to work for us long-term.’ And then we agree to disagree on it.”

-Rafe

 

Turn that around and Brandon would probably say the same thing to Rafe if it were related to Brandon writing another story in the Wheel of Time-verse.

 

But, I'm in the camp of fans that put an asterisk next to books that Brandon Sanderson wrote.

 

 

 

[king of nowhere]

having male and female souls should not imply anything against the exhistance of transsexuality.

just like your body being male doesn't mean you have to like girst, so your soul being male shouldn't mean it either.

i mean, what's a soul? do a soul contain a sexual orientation? or, just like the body, it has sexual attributes but may have a different mind?

and how much of sexuality is innate, versus how much is learned? maybe a male (possibly genderfluid) soul can be straight in some lives and bisexual in others and gay in yet others, all depending on circumstances?

 

Anyway, i haven't followed the full long discussion, so forgive me if someone else already linked this

https://www.tor.com/2021/11/10/ive-seen-the-first-three-episodes-of-the-wheel-of-time-heres-why-youre-going-to-love-it/

i know there had been false claims in the past, but this time 1) it's only 9 days to the release, some people will have seen some premiere, and 2) it's on tor, as far as i know it's a reliable site

here it has a lot of good things to say about the show, and some criticism. it says something about perrin, i am now more afraid the dead wife is true.

regarding the thread argument, the article says

Quote

Some of the outdated gender tropes have been tweaked and updated very well.

emphasis on "very well". I can hope that they did smooth some edges without turning the show into a sermon.

[Tim]

9 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

This simply isn't true though. Just because transgender people were not represented does not mean the WoT world as it is denies their existence. You can fit transgender people into the world without messing with souls dichotomy.

 

I said "effectively does not allow" because I concede that there are ways we can try really hard to fit trans people into the story without changing much. But the books themselves offer no guidance here and the only example they give is by operation of the DO.

 

Further, unless I've missed something, it seems to me no one has come up with an explanation for how trans people could exist in WOT (or, at least, trans channelers) that the self-professed anti-woke contributors in this thread would be comfortable with?

 

[swollymammoth]

12 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Turn that around and Brandon would probably say the same thing to Rafe if it were related to Brandon writing another story in the Wheel of Time-verse.

 

But, I'm in the camp of fans that put an asterisk next to books that Brandon Sanderson wrote.

 

 

 

I don't even like Brandon's books, but for Rafe (who has done nothing, btw) just dismiss his input on anything kind of seems ridiculous. Like him or not, NO ONE in fantasy has his finger on the pulse of what general audiences like more than Brandon Sanderson. If he's telling you something is a bad idea, he's probably right. 

 

I also have an asterisk on the Brandon books, but it's just because I hate his writing style and I think it pales in comparison to RJ's prose. As a storyteller though, he knows what he's talking about. 

[SinisterDeath]

50 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

I forgot that Mat's memories are *probably* harvested and given to him by the Finns, not his past lives.

 

However... what if Lews Therin was a woman? Or if the DR was? Remember how Rand eventually became one with his past self and remembered his previous life?

LTT was cast, and the actor is male.

There's also another tidbit about his oneness. There were other people in there besides LTT.

[Ralph]

Werthead (@Werthead) Tweeted:
One of my colleagues dug deep to find some fan reactions to the trailers and previews before GAME OF THRONES episode 1 dropped.

Some of these criticisms seem a tad familiar (and note that GoT S1 was relatively very faithful to the book).

#TheWheelOfTime #TwitterofTime https://t.co/hmK0w1ejQx

 

 

 

[swollymammoth]

1 hour ago, Tim said:

Perhaps, more accurately, we might say that the changes in (1) are driven by economic imperatives that "we" accept as being a precondition, whereas the changes in (2) are driven by motivations that have only recently become linked to economic imperatives,  such that there is disagreement as to whether they are or should be preconditions - and to the extent that they are, this is considered some failing - i.e. "necessary" versus "unnecessary" really just means "an imperative I accept and (at some level respect) versus one I do not".

A well thought out argument.  I appreciate the nuance that's here in your take. It's refreshing. 

 

For the moment I'll satisfy myself by pushing back on the idea that these ideas being injected into WoT are new "economic imperatives." If anything, they are being treated as moral imperatives, as if to not include them would be some kind of heinous sin against mankind. (See: All the backlash which occurs when a show doesn't have enough "representation"/"diversity"). 

 

There is no evidence that these ideas lead to success in the entertainment marketplace or that they add any sort of economic value to the project at all. If anything, shows and movies which have made these ideas their focal points have seen their audiences shrink rather than grow. This is because writers aren't giving audiences what they want to see, they're imposing an idea on the audience of what they should want to see, if only they were more moral, upright human beings. 

[MasterAblar]

7 minutes ago, Tim said:

 

I said "effectively does not allow" because I concede that there are ways we can try really hard to fit trans people into the story without changing much. But the books themselves offer no guidance here and the only example they give is by operation of the DO.

 

Further, unless I've missed something, it seems to me no one has come up with an explanation for how trans people could exist in WOT (or, at least, trans channelers) that the self-professed anti-woke contributors in this thread would be comfortable with?

 

 

Doesn't seem very complicated to me. You're born into a male body with the ability to channel saidin. In life you turn out to be transgender, and become a woman channelling saidin. Where is the issue? With saidin tainted obviously that can't happen in the books. The other way around could happen it just wasn't shown in the books.

 

If Rafe wanted to show an Aes Sedai who was transgender I wouldn't mind at all. It could be interesting seeing the difficulty of that identity knowing the fear and hate for men who can channel despite the fact that this person would be channelling saidar. You can work transgender individuals into the story without messing with its key elements.

 

Again though I don't actually think intergrating transgender individuals into the story was the primary motivation for the change.

[Ralph]

  On 11/3/2021 at 5:05 PM, swollymammoth said:

So. 

Torn. 

 

On the one hand, Brandon's books are mediocre at best, gawd awful at worst, so how can I trust him? 

On the other hand, Brandon is actually pretty clear-eyed when it comes to theorizing on storytelling, and he has a firm sense for what is currently popular among audiences. I might actually trust him to see the show objectively and not just sell-out on its behalf. 

On the other hand, he did (by his own admission) screw up Mat. 

 

It's a toss up. 

Expand  

 

? 

[swollymammoth]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

? 

What's up? 

[Deadsy]

40 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Turn that around and Brandon would probably say the same thing to Rafe if it were related to Brandon writing another story in the Wheel of Time-verse.

 

But, I'm in the camp of fans that put an asterisk next to books that Brandon Sanderson wrote.

 

 

 

 

 

This was my first thought. I have no problem with the showrunners disagreeing with Sanderson. 

[Tim]

2 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Doesn't seem very complicated to me. You're born into a male body with the ability to channel saidin. In life you turn out to be transgender, and become a woman channelling saidin. Where is the issue? With saidin tainted obviously that can't happen in the books. The other way around could happen it just wasn't shown in the books.

 

On one level, yes, that's the way I might have approached it.

The part that then doesn't really make sense* is that, if souls are gendered, and saidin/saidar is linked to the soul, then how could a channeler ever be born into the wrong-sexed body? Unless you can not agree with the gender of your soul? In which case why have gendered souls in the first place?

 

It would only work by having the person born channeling the opposite section of the one power to their sex (but aligned with their gender). Which I think would be a much bigger lore change than just de-gendering souls if suddenly biological-males who channel saidar and vice versa is a thing that happens.

As far as I can tell the only options that are "coherent" are to not allow for naturally occurring trans channelers at all or to change the lore by de-gendering souls.

*Asterixing the "doesn't really make sense" because in truth I don't really that care about whether this issue is resolved in a way that makes complete sense - but so many people seem to be very concerned about following through the implications and demanding some sort of scientific consistency. Just as people want to understand how a 2 Rivers of diverse ethnicity is biologically possible.

Never mind that this is a fantasy world where people can literally travel between possible worlds that don't really exist, or have their souls sucked out by dragkhar, or where heroes hang out in the world of dreams in between reincarnations but then can have physical bodies in the real world if they are ripped out of the world of dreams even though they were in between incarnations.

But sure, we can agree to obsess over whether the show's treatment of ethnicity and gender is scientifically consistent with RJ's book-world, if that makes the time pass.

 

[TheDreadReader]

11 minutes ago, Tim said:

 

On one level, yes, that's the way I might have approached it.

The part that then doesn't really make sense* is that, if souls are gendered, and saidin/saidar is linked to the soul, then how could a channeler ever be born into the wrong-sexed body? Unless you can not agree with the gender of your soul? In which case why have gendered souls in the first place?

 

It would only work by having the person born channeling the opposite section of the one power to their sex (but aligned with their gender). Which I think would be a much bigger lore change than just de-gendering souls if suddenly biological-males who channel saidar and vice versa is a thing that happens.

As far as I can tell the only options that are "coherent" are to not allow for naturally occurring trans channelers at all or to change the lore by de-gendering souls.

 

 

You could also accomplish the same thing by de-gendering the power but that would run into obvious taint/corruption issues.  Putting the two together adds some consistency but still might create a challenge for how do you handle the taint on the male connection/source.

 

Personally, as the conversation has moved along, I think their reasoning is just to simplify the lore and make it feel more contemporary (for no big socio-political reason other than being non-offensive to most new viewers.)