IGN Explainer - the Dark One

JaimAybara · November 8, 2021

6 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

So .. especially for @Rose who likes to do the positive thought experiments about what the changes could mean ... I want to pose a new question/thought experiment:

How much does it change the story to have Egwene (and Nynaeve?) think that they might be the DR???

Disclaimer: ***For those who disagree please don’t pull out pitchforks or torches. I understand this is a plot device that may only be used for a few episodes or the first season to draw in more viewers. But I will dive into the idea for discussion.***

The alleged changes are not minute to me. Changing the entire magic system and how the men and women of the world perceive each other / experience the world is a considerable shift at the least. The Dragon was feared as a male because men go insane and kill droves of people, and subsequently reshaped the world with their chaotic and tainted power. Women don’t. Also, not sure how a woman who channels Saidar could truly figure out they are the Dragon. The only ways to me is fulfill all the prophesies which at this point are altered very heavily, or be told by forsaken or the Dark One after being approached to turn. And they might not approach them at all if they are just leading common lives. So, without the Dark One doing this there is no way for them to determine that they are because they wouldn’t have the same chance of hearing past lives talk to them because they wouldn’t be going crazy. Therefore never “meet” Lews Therin. Unless women can for some reason channel Saidin…which I don’t know about that. Didn’t care for it in the books when the Dark One did it to the forsaken, don’t know how they would do it well even if they changed it.

So, here’s the rub. 1) Even if they were The Dragon Reborn they would have to alter so much that it’s not even telling the same story. 2) Even if it was only hypothesized… I don’t understand how the Aes Sedai could reach this conclusion nor how it would function in the grand scheme of things. Maybe the White Ajah suggested just to prepare for it and therefore bring them along. (Which as aforementioned in my disclaimer is what I think it is.) But the whole point of the Dragon is redemption for their past actions and taking away their insanity severely diminishes that plot point because now they are not suffering from their past actions in a martyr/savior way to the same degree. She wouldn’t be bearing the weight of the world to the same degree nor in a way to comprehend what they did to the world in the past fully. Do Aes Sedai even have historical examples of body swap reincarnations in the books or rewrites? If not, why would they think it? Also, she would be trained as a wise one not a clan chief. Not clan chief not Car’a’carn. Not Car’a’carn don’t fulfill further prophesy. (Unless they change even more) To me it creates a cascade effect of issues moving forward.

Honestly, from the teasers and trailers the character that seems the most faithful to their written form in my opinion is Nynaeve, which is why I’m more excited to see her at the moment. (Subject to change along with all my hot takes after watching the show) Not all of these alleged changes are confirmed truly, but have been talked about a lot. I personally don’t see how if they do change them as speculated to be, why these changes are “more beneficial.” They could’ve included Logain as another potential true dragon instead and they would have four suspects which is essentially the same amount and it wouldn’t mess with lore and operating systems at all, while pushing the mystery to a similar level.

In the end we will have to wait and see if the gamble to make these changes pays off or not. “Time to roll the dice.”

Edited November 8, 2021 by JaimAybara

Rose · November 8, 2021

7 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

So .. especially for @Rose who likes to do the positive thought experiments about what the changes could mean ... I want to pose a new question/thought experiment:

How much does it change the story to have Egwene (and Nynaeve?) think that they might be the DR???

That's a good question. I think it might still come with initial shock and fear, because the Dragon is a feared figure even without the madness. But once they get used to the idea, especially Egwene (I doubt they'd seriously make Nynaeve a candidate), I could see her being eager and determined to do what needs to be done. I mean has Egwene ever not been eager and determined? Lol

Then once it's revealed it's actually Rand, it could make for an interesting dynamic. They've been giving the two a much closer relationship in the show, likely to make it that much more impactful when they have a rift later on. Making Egwene a candidate could accelerate the rift and make it more dramatic. I could totally see them playing into that to bring their dynamic from the latter books forward into earlier seasons. They do, after all, need to speed up and shorthand a lot of things.

JaimAybara · November 8, 2021

1 minute ago, Rose said:

“Making Egwene a candidate could accelerate the rift and make it more dramatic.”

I really like this take. Particularly if he thinks Egwene’s relationship becomes more about how to control him as their romantic love wanes.

Rose · November 8, 2021

I cared little for Rand and Egwene's relationship in the books, but just the stills and teasers we've got have yielded more emotion from me about those two than I expected. It looks like they're gearing up to hit us where it hurts and I'm (not) ready ?

Edited November 8, 2021 by Rose

JaimAybara · November 8, 2021

I agree. I honestly liked all the relationships except for Elayne/Rand and Egwene/Rand/Gawyn. All the others felt pretty good.

Deadsy · November 8, 2021

1 hour ago, JaimAybara said:

Disclaimer: ***For those who disagree please don’t pull out pitchforks or torches. I understand this is a plot device that may only be used for a few episodes or the first season to draw in more viewers. But I will dive into the idea for discussion.***

The alleged changes are not minute to me. Changing the entire magic system and how the men and women of the world perceive each other / experience the world is a considerable shift at the least. The Dragon was feared as a male because men go insane and kill droves of people, and subsequently reshaped the world with their chaotic and tainted power. Women don’t. Also, not sure how a woman who channels Saidar could truly figure out they are the Dragon. The only ways to me is fulfill all the prophesies which at this point are altered very heavily, or be told by forsaken or the Dark One after being approached to turn. And they might not approach them at all if they are just leading common lives. So, without the Dark One doing this there is no way for them to determine that they are because they wouldn’t have the same chance of hearing past lives talk to them because they wouldn’t be going crazy. Therefore never “meet” Lews Therin. Unless women can for some reason channel Saidin…which I don’t know about that. Didn’t care for it in the books when the Dark One did it to the forsaken, don’t know how they would do it well even if they changed it.

So, here’s the rub. 1) Even if they were The Dragon Reborn they would have to alter so much that it’s not even telling the same story. 2) Even if it was only hypothesized… I don’t understand how the Aes Sedai could reach this conclusion nor how it would function in the grand scheme of things. Maybe the White Ajah suggested just to prepare for it and therefore bring them along. (Which as aforementioned in my disclaimer is what I think it is.) But the whole point of the Dragon is redemption for their past actions and taking away their insanity severely diminishes that plot point because now they are not suffering from their past actions in a martyr/savior way to the same degree. She wouldn’t be bearing the weight of the world to the same degree nor in a way to comprehend what they did to the world in the past fully. Do Aes Sedai even have historical examples of body swap reincarnations in the books or rewrites? If not, why would they think it? Also, she would be trained as a wise one not a clan chief. Not clan chief not Car’a’carn. Not Car’a’carn don’t fulfill further prophesy. (Unless they change even more) To me it creates a cascade effect of issues moving forward.

Honestly, from the teasers and trailers the character that seems the most faithful to their written form in my opinion is Nynaeve, which is why I’m more excited to see her at the moment. (Subject to change along with all my hot takes after watching the show) Not all of these alleged changes are confirmed truly, but have been talked about a lot. I personally don’t see how if they do change them as speculated to be, why these changes are “more beneficial.” They could’ve included Logain as another potential true dragon instead and they would have four suspects which is essentially the same amount and it wouldn’t mess with lore and operating systems at all, while pushing the mystery to a similar level.

In the end we will have to wait and see if the gamble to make these changes pays off or not. “Time to roll the dice.”

It doesn't change the magic system at all. It potentially changes behavior and attitudes. You're getting into a lot of what if a woman was the DR stuff here. I think the question is how Nynaeve and Egwene would be impacted if they thought they could be the DR. I think what you're talking about is interesting to think about, but is almost a different topic.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Deadsy

JaimAybara · November 8, 2021

1 hour ago, Deadsy said:

It doesn't change the magic system at all. It potentially changes behavior and attitudes. You're getting into a lot of what if a woman was the DR stuff here. I think the question is how Nynaeve and Egwene would be impacted if they thought they could be the DR. I think what you're talking about is interesting to think about, but is almost a different topic.

The way I look at it in order for them to be included in the prophesy/vision they would have to make it plausible and functional long term if they actually were the Dragon Reborn. Otherwise it doesn’t make any sense that they are included in it at all unless the vision Moiraine has is significantly misleading or just inserts them as involved and she misinterprets it. Which is also a very real possibility, and honestly this is my prediction. Moiraine or whoever they give the foretelling to will have a vision but it will be significantly reduced in information.

As you’ve mentioned before we don’t have a lot to go off of and all of this is speculation until it actually drops of course. I just like going down every possible outcome and am not ruling out magic system alterations however slim, due to the phrasing of the prophesy which we know already has been changed slightly.

Rose · November 8, 2021

5 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

Moiraine or whoever they give the foretelling to will have a vision but it will be significantly reduced in information.

The fact that she says "we don't know where" in the Moiraine"s quest clip seems to point to this as well. In New Spring they knew the Dragon had been reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount. So maybe Gitara is more vague about it in the show.

MasterAblar · November 8, 2021

1 hour ago, Rose said:

The fact that she says "we don't know where" in the Moiraine"s quest clip seems to point to this as well. In New Spring they knew the Dragon had been reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount. So maybe Gitara is more vague about it in the show.

This is arguably an even greater issue since her arrival in the Two Rivers is very contrived without her learning that someone there might have been born on dragonmount. Curious to see how they justify it.

Edited November 8, 2021 by MasterAblar

DojoToad · November 8, 2021

56 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

This is arguably an even greater issue since her arrival in the Two Rivers is very contrived without her learning that someone there might have been born on dragonmount. Curious to see how they justify it.

It's the one place West of the Spine that hasn't been checked yet. Moiraine and Lan had a very busy 20 years...

MasterAblar · November 8, 2021

21 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

It's the one place West of the Spine that hasn't been checked yet. Moiraine and Lan had a very busy 20 years...

Yes very believable ?

king of nowhere · November 8, 2021

2 hours ago, Rose said:

The fact that she says "we don't know where" in the Moiraine"s quest clip seems to point to this as well. In New Spring they knew the Dragon had been reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount. So maybe Gitara is more vague about it in the show.

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

This is arguably an even greater issue since her arrival in the Two Rivers is very contrived without her learning that someone there might have been born on dragonmount. Curious to see how they justify it.

no plot hole at all.

the dragon was born on the slopes of dragonmount, as per the foretelling. amyrlin tamra ospenya made her proclamation that all women that gave birth around the place have to register, and they will be paid. they got lists of names. they followed them.

from new spring, can't pick the page on the ebook reader but it states it's 29% of the book:

Quote

Too many like ‘Kari al’Thor. From Andor? Husband Tamlin, Second Captain of the Illianer Companions, took discharge.’ That pair might have gone anywhere in the world, and there was doubt she had had a child at all.

so, moiraine had tam's name, among many others. in 20 years they tracked down those names. they tracked them down, one by one, until 20 years later they reached tam and kari and tracked them in the two rivers.

and none of this changes whether they are unsure if they're looking for a boy or girl

MasterAblar · November 8, 2021

3 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

no plot hole at all.

the dragon was born on the slopes of dragonmount, as per the foretelling. amyrlin tamra ospenya made her proclamation that all women that gave birth around the place have to register, and they will be paid. they got lists of names. they followed them.

from new spring, can't pick the page on the ebook reader but it states it's 29% of the book:

so, moiraine had tam's name, among many others. in 20 years they tracked down those names. they tracked them down, one by one, until 20 years later they reached tam and kari and tracked them in the two rivers.

and none of this changes whether they are unsure if they're looking for a boy or girl

Why would Tamra make that proclamation if the foretelling doesn’t specifically say that the child was born on dragonmount?

Edited November 8, 2021 by MasterAblar

DojoToad · November 8, 2021

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

no plot hole at all.

the dragon was born on the slopes of dragonmount, as per the foretelling. amyrlin tamra ospenya made her proclamation that all women that gave birth around the place have to register, and they will be paid. they got lists of names. they followed them.

from new spring, can't pick the page on the ebook reader but it states it's 29% of the book:

so, moiraine had tam's name, among many others. in 20 years they tracked down those names. they tracked them down, one by one, until 20 years later they reached tam and kari and tracked them in the two rivers.

and none of this changes whether they are unsure if they're looking for a boy or girl

Was Kari a camp follower? If she was, I doubt her and Tam would have registered Rand. Not their kid, they'd want to stay on the down-low. They wouldn't want to be on the Aes Sedai radar.

Katherine · November 8, 2021

But I don't think any of us is truly qualified to fully define the current cultural understanding of gender, let alone have any clue whatsoever about how the show will address it.

That is totally fair. I am not an expert by any means. What I believe I understand, is that the current culture does NOT see gender as binary..... but as something fluid with many facets.

The book does not work that way.

ANd you are right.... we have no idea how far the show will go with gender issues. HOWEVER we know that took a giant step towards addressing fluid gender identity by saying inthe first 60 seconds of the show that the dragon.... a male.... might be reborn again as a girl.

So we know this is happening. How far will it go? Who knows?

king of nowhere · November 8, 2021

29 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Why would Tamra make that proclamation if the foretelling doesn’t specifically say that the child was born on dragonmount?

why wouldn't the foretelling mention dragonmount? why would they need to change that?

Agitel · November 8, 2021

I don't think I've seen enough to rule out mention of Dragonmount in the least. In the books, Moiraine was trying to track down Tam based on all the information she collected (but doesn't seem to have know his name). No doubt she hit dead ends on the way. I wouldn't take her comment from the teaser on its own as proof they eliminated all that and just have her searching blind.

DojoToad · November 8, 2021

9 minutes ago, Katherine said:

That is totally fair. I am not an expert by any means. What I believe I understand, is that the current culture does NOT see gender as binary..... but as something fluid with many facets.

I believe you are wrong. Start a poll and find out.

DojoToad · November 8, 2021

9 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

why wouldn't the foretelling mention dragonmount? why would they need to change that?

Because it doesn't fit the changes?

Not saying they changed, just a what if.

DojoToad · November 8, 2021

7 minutes ago, Agitel said:

I don't think I've seen enough to rule out mention of Dragonmount in the least. In the books, Moiraine was trying to track down Tam based on all the information she collected (but doesn't seem to have know his name). No doubt she hit dead ends on the way. I wouldn't take her comment from the teaser on its own as proof they eliminated all that and just have her searching blind.

When did it mention once that she was tracking Tam? I never remember that, but would be interested in seeing any source you have.

Agitel · November 8, 2021

10 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

When did it mention once that she was tracking Tam? I never remember that, but would be interested in seeing any source you have.

My head canon may be bad on that. I thought she had learned an Illianer soldier left with a baby and was slowly following up on that lead, but maybe not.

Edit: I may have been thinking of this quote from TGH:

[Moiraine] “There were many fatherless children after that battle. Too many. But we found a story, that one man had found an infant on the mountain. That was all. A man and an infant boy. So we searched on. For years we searched, finding other clues, poring over the Prophecies. ‘He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.’ That was one; there were others. But there are many places where the old blood, descended from the Age of Legends, remains strong. Then, in the Two Rivers, where the old blood of Manetheren seethes still like a river in flood, in Emond’s Field, I found three boys whose name-days were within weeks of the battle at Dragonmount. And one of them can channel. Did you think Trollocs came after you just because you are ta’veren? You are the Dragon Reborn.”

Edited November 8, 2021 by Agitel

Katherine · November 8, 2021

17 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I believe you are wrong. Start a poll and find out.

I totally could be.

TheMountain · November 8, 2021

TheDreadReader · November 8, 2021

2 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

This is arguably an even greater issue since her arrival in the Two Rivers is very contrived without her learning that someone there might have been born on dragonmount. Curious to see how they justify it.

It is no more contrived than it was in the original books when you factor in various measures for "contrived". It really depends on how you frame it.

For example, "We don't know where" is a generally true statement. Book Moiraine could have said it without violating the three oaths. All you have to do is infer a limiting clause of "on the slopes of the dragonmount". The audio from the clip that the line comes from can easily include additional information.

The key element from the book is that Moiraine is looking for someone born on the dragonmount when she arrives in the two rivers but she doesn't have to know that some one was only that the possibility exists that one was.

Agitel · November 8, 2021

The simple solution is that they just use "they" as a gender-neutral singular, which is not uncommon and is an acceptable and grammatically correct use of the word. It was used in English hundreds of years ago, fell out of style for a period of time, and came back in vogue decades ago. Plus, they already used "they" in that sense for the Dragon on the Amazon page for the show.

"They" as third person singular pronoun:

https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/

https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/grammar/singular-they#:~:text=The singular “they” is a,person singular pronoun in English.&text=Also use “they” as a,generic third-person singular pronouns.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they

Edited November 8, 2021 by Agitel