tv show spoilers S1E8: The Eye of the World

[KakitaOCU]

20 minutes ago, 7th age said:

,,, seeing that LTT did NOT do this out of desperation but rather arrogance on the one hand, and that Rands untrained channeling has to be compared to the equally untrained Nyn and Eg. I would not have ANY confidence in this supposed "saviour"

It's almost as if the first season is setting up a world where women constantly feel superior and have a massive political and power advantage.  Where in we can later find out there's more nuance and detail.

Also, I love that you watch the LTT where Latra calls him arrogant and prideful and assume that's all there is to the story.  If you haven't read the books, you don't have a reason to complain as that might be how LTT was, you don't know. 

For those of us who are book readers.  We know there's a war going, we know there's more we're not seeing, and... We know this fight happened and that LTT was challenged for his arrogance and Hubris.  We ALSO know that Rand accepts and ACKNOWLEDGES those weaknesses in aMoL.  ?

It's as if that scene is actually perfectly appropriate on multiple levels.

 

  

4 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 Saidar and Saidin need to be incorporated.

They are, as many have pointed out, they just haven't used those terms.  You're literally arguing over them not using 2 words in the script while deliberately ignoring everything that shows they're present.

Edited December 29, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[Mirefox]

16 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

 

Allana did say that Women can't see Men's weaves and Logain was able to channel without using any hand movements. I took Moiraine's answer to Rand as her being an Aes Sedi and not wanting to admit ignorance. 

 

I think in general Moiraines plan was flawed by Aes Sedi arrogance, and her over reliance upon "The Wheel Weaves as The Wheel Wills" which is why she was okay tossing an untrained and clueless Dragon at The Dark One with just a Sa'Angreal and hopes that The Pattern would take care of the rest. I took it as more a reflection of The Aes Sedi as a whole and Moiraine as a character more than I did it being a poorly written disrespect of the source. Still, it was a really silly plan so I understand why it bothered you.

 

If Moiraine didn’t want to admit ignorance at that point, what an unbelievable character flaw that was.  From her point of view, she had a young, untrained Male channeler who she was planning on giving a super weapon (or already had, I don’t remember the timing) that she was bringing to (she thought) fight the supreme evil on all of creation at the mouth of his prison and she couldn’t suck it up and say “I don’t know how to train you.  The male half of the power is different and AES Sendai cannot see ot or control it.  But if it helps you at all, here’s what I do…”  Thos wasn’t some random camp out on an inconsequential journey.  For her, this was it, the end, the ultimate purpose of her life’s work.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Mirefox

[notpropaganda73]

2 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

If Moiraine didn’t want to admit ignorance at that point, what an unbelievable character flaw that was.  From her point of view, she had a young, untrained Male channeled who she was planning on giving a super weapon (or already had, I don’t remember the timing) that she was bringing to (she thought) fight the supreme evil on all of creation at the mouth of his prison and she couldn’t suck it up and say “I don’t know how to train you.  The male half of the power is different and AES Sendai cannot see ot or control it.  But if it helps you at all, here’s what I do…”  Thos wasn’t some random camp out on an inconsequential journey.  For her, this was it, the end, the ultimate purpose of her life’s work.

 

I really do agree with this, I found it a weird refusal to address saidin/saidar. Even if we go down the route of "The AS in this iteration do not know as much as the book AS", then what does Moiraine have to gain from simply stating "I don't know if I can help you, I cannot see when a man channels the One Power". If anything it would flag even more that there is a difference, something the show has been hinting at but in my mind almost stubbornly refusing to fully address (in-show). 

 

It was a weird scene and a missed opportunity. 

 

I also found it really weird that Moiraine 1) had a knife to Rand's throat (how would she know to kill him until too late anyway?) and 2) that Ishy just let her do that when he'd already shown how much more powerful/quicker he was (although this does track with his own hubris in the books I suppose).

[7th age]

3 hours ago, CanisNoir said:

I think you might be jumping to conclusions. We've been told we're going to be seeing more from The AoL in future seasons, which means we'll be seeing LTT more. Most of us didn't know Tam's fever dream took place until a third of the way through Episode 7. That flashback completely re-contextualizes Rands character from Episode 2 through 7. There is still room to paint a fuller picture of LTT character.  

 Pretty sure they will. At this point there is no war of the shadow and if nothing else you need that to explain the Forsaken.

That doesnt change the fact that they CHOSE to portrait that scene the way they did.

LTT is arrogant and the benign reasons he wants to do what he does  are left out. He wants to do something thats never been done before even after being told of the enourmos risks(and with seemingly no upside, showviewers are told the DO was sealed but even sealed there are trolloc and fades and the blight whereas before LTT did what he did everything seems pretty utopian)-arrogance in its purest form.(Also, never been done before???? LTT lived for more then a hundred years before the bore was opened, but thats a tangent to this point)

LPD is not only wise enough too  completly foresee the consequences(of something thats never been done) and counsel against it, they leave out the AT LEAST as dangerous and reckless plan she has. Not only because it is unteneable at this time due to the shadow holding the territory with the acces keys, more importantly because it involves channeling 2 SA, one of which is enough to crack the world open like an egg, FOREVER. Forever is a pretty long time for something that cannot go wrong once...

[CanisNoir]

28 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

I agree with all that 100% ^,  but still think it would just be way easier and more clarifying to simply say, “Saidin is too different from Saidar. One is a raging torrent of fire and the other is a calm but massive river…” go on to give Rand “the talk” about the fish and the birds, bla bla, you get it. Haha. Nor do I think it was intentional disrespect or anything like that, more of just a missed opportunity. 

 

Gotcha, and I can see how it might be a missed opportunity to further distinguish between the two but when I think about it, how would Moiraine, or any current Aes Sedi for that matter, know what The Male half is like beyond knowing they can't see the weaves. They gentle every male channeler as soon as possible. She could have said "You know, I can't because, well we turn every man who channels into a soulless husk before they can destroy everything." but I don't think that would have been as easily accepted by Rand as "the sooner you channel the sooner you'll go mad".

 

I think now that the show has a prominent and active male channeler we'll have more opportunities to explore the difference between the two halfs.

[Vartija]

To be honest, I think the entire concept of an untrained Rand and Moiraine knowingly going it alone to face the Dark One this early in the series was a bit implausable as a plot development. As I remeber from the book, they went to the mythical Eye of the World because it was under threat, but did they expect to battle the Dark One while there? Even the book version feels like an incredibly risky move that puts the Emond's Fielders at grave danger, but I never got the impression Moiraine was taking them there knowing they would face the Dark One then and there (ie. a mini Last Battle). She was definitely surprised when Aginor and Balthamel appeared which to me suggests she hadn't really expected to face that kind of resistance there. 

 

This kind of stems from the fact that they changed the concept of what the Eye of the World is between the show and the book.  

[gibbons]

People keep bringing up Lews Therin's arrogance being accurate but as far as I can recall when Rand admits this himself it's in a completely different context. 

The plan to risk ripping apart the world by fighting the dark one head on with the access keys was hubris, not the plan to seal the dark one.

What WAS hubris was Lews Therin's treatment of other key figures that later turned to the shadow, for which Rand feels responsible, wondering if he should have extended a hand and offered encouragement instead of competing with each other.

 

I do agree that they will probably expand on this later, maybe (hopefully) taking the time to show us the sheer lunacy of relying on what is essentially magic nukes (in scale not in application) which had already fallen under the shadow's control. Yes the shadow did not have the access keys but the forsaken clearly show enough knowledge about them to  have been capable of seeking them out if the war dragged on.

Anyway rambling aside, I would have been more accepting of this particular depiction of Lews Therin if they made the effort to show him looking desperate, and if the view outside was less... nice. The sunshine makes sense since we see the same effect with Rand later, but the city looks untouched.

[RextheDog]

4 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

as long as the rules are consistant in the TV show then in the interest of removing reams of boring dialogue explaining things that actually, in the grand schemes of a TV show, don't matter I don't really care if they dumb down the one power rules a bit. In the books they took up pages and pages of descriptive text to explain, in the TV show that takes up screen time and requires exposition, which personally I can't stand. 

exactly, and if they did that, they may have had to cut some of the steppin arc.....

[Khan of Shadows]

1 hour ago, Yojimbo said:

OMG, this is exactly what my wife, a non reader, has been saying.  "I know what they are telling me I should feel, but they aren't showing me why I should feel it"

 So many examples of this, including the scene where Rand defies the DO. I didn't like that scene or the idea behind it, but if you're gonna go that route, you don't actually need to have Rand explicitly state that, basically, Egwene is her own person. These writers are afraid of subtext. Which is a shame, because subtext more than anything is what gives art its power. 

[KakitaOCU]

10 minutes ago, Vartija said:

To be honest, I think the entire concept of an untrained Rand and Moiraine knowingly going it alone to face the Dark One this early in the series was a bit implausable as a plot development.

If they were going to fight him, yeah.  But since the entire scenario seems to be "Rand can either strengthen or break the DO's prison."  There wasn't a planned fight, just a facing him and making a right choice.

 

 

10 minutes ago, gibbons said:

People keep bringing up Lews Therin's arrogance being accurate but as far as I can recall when Rand admits this himself it's in a completely different context. 

...

Anyway rambling aside, I would have been more accepting of this particular depiction of Lews Therin if they made the effort to show him looking desperate, and if the view outside was less... nice. The sunshine makes sense since we see the same effect with Rand later, but the city looks untouched.

No, the context fits.  He was too arrogant to compromise and work with people.  He laid out his plans and refused to budge.  Rand was on the verge of doing it again in the Fields of Merrilor before Moraine arrived and pushed an agreement where in Rand gave up some of what he was demanding (2 of his 3 in fact).

As for LTT looking more desperate.  Would be horribly out of character.  Like him or hate him, how often did you ever see Obama or Bush or Clinton appear desperate no matter what the situation was?  Or any other public leader, just hitting a few of ours since I know details more.  

A Leader does not show weakness or vulnerability, he shows confidence and control at all times.  That's just kind of standard operating procedure.  

 

  

5 minutes ago, Khan of Shadows said:

 So many examples of this, including the scene where Rand defies the DO. I didn't like that scene or the idea behind it, but if you're gonna go that route, you don't actually need to have Rand explicitly state that, basically, Egwene is her own person. These writers are afraid of subtext. Which is a shame, because subtext more than anything is what gives art its power. 

Disagree.  This isn't a fear of subtext, this is flat out setting up a call back to when Compulsion enters the scene.  Ishamael is showing Rand "How to bend the world to the way you want, so she'll be what you want."  He's going to have Rand compel Egwene, or at least that's the setup.

It's ALSO a serious call forward to the real Last Battle when Rand decides "Fine, we'll just kill you, let's show that world." And it reveals that people are irrevocably altered.

Edited December 29, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[JaimAybara]

10 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

 

Gotcha, and I can see how it might be a missed opportunity to further distinguish between the two but when I think about it, how would Moiraine, or any current Aes Sedi for that matter, know what The Male half is like beyond knowing they can't see the weaves. They gentle every male channeler as soon as possible. She could have said "You know, I can't because, well we turn every man who channels into a soulless husk before they can destroy everything." but I don't think that would have been as easily accepted by Rand as "the sooner you channel the sooner you'll go mad".

 

I think now that the show has a prominent and active male channeler we'll have more opportunities to explore the difference between the two halfs.

They even say to Logain he will be studied until the madness takes him. They’ve likely done the same to any man who can channel pre or post gentling they would likely have many research books giving descriptions of the differences by the mouths of male channelers written by browns. 

[JaimAybara]

3 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

He was too arrogant to compromise and work with people. 

The women refused to help him too. His logic or argumentation wasn’t even given proper treatment or representation. He thought their weapons would just be stolen by the forsaken and they were already losing a battle of attrition handily. This wasn’t highlighted at all. He saw them as just wanting to hide from the problem. Instead of us getting both sides in a fair light, they just lecture to us again about the complete arrogance of men. I do hope you are right that this is actually addressed in the next season though. It also doesn’t make sense as an unreliable narration here because it was mostly from Lews Therin’s point of view. So why not give us unreliable narration from him? It was just bizarre. Instead we are getting proof of his hubris and why he is an arrogant fool from his own perspective. Which makes no sense.

[7th age]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

It's almost as if the first season is setting up a world where women constantly feel superior and have a massive political and power advantage.  Where in we can later find out there's more nuance and detail.

 So you think this is all a big ploy to actually show the arrogance of women being shown to be on par with the arrogance of men?

To some degree im sure, as that IS the direction the books go (AS especially get set up very high in the first books only to be taken back down to earth later). But Im not confident at all that this is their main motivation for all this. Should I proven to be wrong in future seasons... mea culpa(and a big yay since that would indicate an overall much better direction of the  overarching themes then what I fear we might get)

 

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

Also, I love that you watch the LTT where Latra calls him arrogant and prideful and assume that's all there is to the story.  If you haven't read the books, you don't have a reason to complain as that might be how LTT was, you don't know. 

For those of us who are book readers.  We know there's a war going, we know there's more we're not seeing, and... We know this fight happened and that LTT was challenged for his arrogance and Hubris.  We ALSO know that Rand accepts and ACKNOWLEDGES those weaknesses in aMoL.  ?

 

This is the second time you directly or indirectly accuse me of having preconceived notions/not being able to acknoledge depth/taking things at face value. Considering the length and content of the post in which I responded the first time(which you must have gotten a notification for since I quoted you), to which you did not respond, as well as you not picking up that I am a book reader that in that particular paragraph chose to consider things from a show only perspective, maybe you shouldnt throw around these accusations so carelessly.

Edited December 29, 2021 by 7th age

[nicki_minajah]

On 12/23/2021 at 6:41 PM, Owayn The Traveller said:

It’s not poker, moraine isn’t licking the cream off an Oreo when she has a good hand.

 

I AM DYING.

[MasterAblar]

56 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

For those of us who are book readers.  We know there's a war going, we know there's more we're not seeing, and... We know this fight happened and that LTT was challenged for his arrogance and Hubris.  We ALSO know that Rand accepts and ACKNOWLEDGES those weaknesses in aMoL.  ?

It's as if that scene is actually perfectly appropriate on multiple levels.

 

 

I really don't see how you can preface the Strike at Shayol Ghul without pointing out that there is a massive end of an era world going on. I don't see how they can possibly make the series work without that war, there's way too much dependent on it.

 

Which means they intenionally didn't mention the war? The whole reason any of this is happening? I'm sorry but that just seems like a very poorly written scene. Not to mention the fact that both characters just don't come across well in that scene. LTT comes across as downright petulant in my opinion. His "You can't stop me!" as he stands up? Like, what is that? That's not LTT as he's described in the books. He was most likely somewhat arrogant and especially overly competitive, but frankly the way he acted in the Strike at Shayol Ghul and the way he acts here feel completely at odds.

 

As for LPD not only is having her know exactly what the consequences of LTT's plan will be giving her too much credit, it also somehow manages to make her a fool. You know the consequences and you just tell LTT, yep feel free, as you were then?

 

I'm not asking them to exposition the whole of the Age of Power in a 3 minute scene (or however long it was). But if you're gonna make a point of setting up the strike and the Dark One's counterstroke, then do it right. Honestly there's a whole host of changes in the series that I've looked at and thought well let's see what they want to do with this, or what potential this has.

 

Here I'm just confused, so honestly if you have a good explanation (other than they haven't said anything yet, because unfortunately there's some things that they said in the scene they can't really take back), then believe me I'd really like to hear it.

 

(Not trying to be rude by the way, the scene just really rubbed me the wrong way ?)

 

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I also found it really weird that Moiraine 1) had a knife to Rand's throat (how would she know to kill him until too late anyway?) and 2) that Ishy just let her do that when he'd already shown how much more powerful/quicker he was (although this does track with his own hubris in the books I suppose).

 

I'm a little confused at why people have an issue with Moiraine holding a knife to his throat. What other play does she have? It's too soon for her to start rugby tackling Forsakens. She's doing the only thing she can even if she knows it's probably pointless.

 

As for Ishamael I don't know he probably feels he can just heal him if he needs to anyway.

Edited December 29, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Mirefox]

2 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I'm a little confused at why people have an issue with Moiraine holding a knife to her throat. What other play does she have? It's too soon for her to start rugby tackling Forsakens. She's doing the only thing she can even if she knows it's probably pointless.

 

As for Ishamael I don't know he probably feels he can just heal him if he needs to anyway.

Yeah, it was likely to be ineffective but she’s using the tools she has.  No real issues there.

[nicki_minajah]

2 hours ago, Mirefox said:

You more than anyone else here need to stop blaming everyone but the writers for any issues with the show.  So it’s our fault now?  We just aren’t sophisticated enough to understand the medium and how carefully crafted it is?  Give me a break.  Even ignoring any debates about fidelity there is plenty of objectively bad writing and inconsistency in the first season, even when considered completely in a vacuum.

 

I can't find the quoted post from @DigificWriter, but I'd like to humbly recommend a too-long post I made on this kind of exchange a month(ish) ago: "Let's, Like, Talk to Each Other Good." The TLDR version is, essentially, what @CaddySedai said: disparaging each other is no good. In more detail, though, I wrote about how it isn't persuasive. By profession, I teach college (freshman to grad-level) Writing & Rhetoric, and one of our biggest knowns is that audiences (barring those with Stockholm Syndrome) tend to reject our arguments if we begin by telling our audiences that they are stupid/immoral.

[MasterAblar]

49 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

No, the context fits.  He was too arrogant to compromise and work with people.  He laid out his plans and refused to budge.  Rand was on the verge of doing it again in the Fields of Merrilor before Moraine arrived and pushed an agreement where in Rand gave up some of what he was demanding (2 of his 3 in fact).

 

Sorry but that just simply isn't true. When his plan was prevented from happening, he cooperated with LPD's plan as "the highest military leader of the light". He literally only acted on his plan when he saw absolutely no other alternative. The whole reason the Fateful Concord seemed to doom his plan is because it was believed female channellers and a circle was necessary for the precision required to lay the seals. That hardly sounds like someone unwilling to work with people.

 

To be fair I've often thought that the way LTT was described wasn't always coherent. Part of that is LTT in Rand's mind being mad most of the time of course.

[KakitaOCU]

43 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

The women refused to help him too. His logic or argumentation wasn’t even given proper treatment or representation...

 

Yep, arrogance on both sides, which doesn't negate his.  She's being arrogant in that scene telling him there's no way to succeed and he's already failed.  She's right in hindsight but she didn't know or give him consideration just like he didn't give her any.

 

39 minutes ago, 7th age said:

 So you think this is all a big ploy to actually show the arrogance of women being shown to be on par with the arrogance of men?

To some degree im sure, as that IS the direction the books go (AS especially get set up very high in the first books only to be taken back down to earth later). But Im not confident at all that this is their main motivation for all this. Should I proven to be wrong in future seasons... mea culpa(and a big yay since that would indicate an overall much better direction of the  overarching themes then what I fear we might get)

But why you feel this is based on?  If you only read EotW with no knowledge going forward you'd get a similar view of Men=Stupid and arrogant and failures while Women have to pick up the pieces.

 

39 minutes ago, 7th age said:

This is the second time you directly or indirectly accuse me of having preconceived notions/not being able to acknoledge depth/taking things at face value....

 

I use "you" in a generic sense.  My apologies if it came off as an attack on you. 

My statement should read "If a person is not a book reader they have no reason to assume LTT wasn't just as depicted and so any forward change will be a surprise.  However if a person IS a book reader, then they know all these other details going on and that arrogance and hubris were one of LTT's primary failings to the point that Rand acknowledges them and then almost repeats them anyway."

The only way that's an attack on you is if you, as a book reader, somehow don't understand that about LTT.  Which even then isn't an attack, just an observation that you missed something.

[MasterAblar]

12 minutes ago, nicki_minajah said:

 

I can't find the quoted post from @DigificWriter, but I'd like to humbly recommend a too-long post I made on this kind of exchange a month(ish) ago: "Let's, Like, Talk to Each Other Good." The TLDR version is, essentially, what @CaddySedai said: disparaging each other is no good. In more detail, though, I wrote about how it isn't persuasive. By profession, I teach college (freshman to grad-level) Writing & Rhetoric, and one of our biggest knowns is that audiences (barring those with Stockholm Syndrome) tend to reject our arguments if we begin by telling our audiences that they are stupid/immoral.

 

Disagree, shitalking the kids I coached at football always worked wonders for me.

[KakitaOCU]

6 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Sorry but that just simply isn't true. When his plan was prevented from happening, he cooperated with LPD's plan as "the highest military leader of the light". He literally only acted on his plan when he saw absolutely no other alternative. The whole reason the Fateful Concord seemed to doom his plan is because it was believed female channellers and a circle was necessary for the precision required to lay the seals. That hardly sounds like someone unwilling to work with people.

Yep, he was willing to work with people so long as they went along with his plan and did what he thought needed to be done.

Similar, again, to Rand before Moraine at Merrillor.  He was bluffing about not fighting the DO, but he was absolutely unwilling to budge on any of his 3 demands.  Until someone who had a deep emotional hit to him came in and said "Give up on 2 of the 3 and move forward you idiot."

[MasterAblar]

Just now, KakitaOCU said:

Yep, he was willing to work with people so long as they went along with his plan and did what he thought needed to be done.
 

 

So what part specifically in the Strike at Shayol Ghul do you think depicted LTT as unwilling to work with people? I'm genuinly curious because to me it pretty clearly shows him proposing a plan, that plan being made unworkable, and him accepting that and going along with the other plan until that plan was made impossible, forcing his hand into putting his own plan into action. In this contexts which is the context of the scene the show is based on, I'm just not seeing his unwillingness to budge.

[gibbons]

55 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

As for LTT looking more desperate.  Would be horribly out of character.  Like him or hate him, how often did you ever see Obama or Bush or Clinton appear desperate no matter what the situation was?  Or any other public leader, just hitting a few of ours since I know details more.  

A Leader does not show weakness or vulnerability, he shows confidence and control at all times.  That's just kind of standard operating procedure.  

 

 

If it was a public meeting I would agree, but in a private setting while discussing potentially literal world shattering events? He would not have to show his emotions for the entire meeting either, a quick slip of the mask as she leaves, or a nod to the flame and the void would have made all the difference and would not have taken up any more screen time than the scene already did.

[CivBrit]

1 hour ago, Vartija said:

To be honest, I think the entire concept of an untrained Rand and Moiraine knowingly going it alone to face the Dark One this early in the series was a bit implausable as a plot development. As I remeber from the book, they went to the mythical Eye of the World because it was under threat, but did they expect to battle the Dark One while there? Even the book version feels like an incredibly risky move that puts the Emond's Fielders at grave danger, but I never got the impression Moiraine was taking them there knowing they would face the Dark One then and there (ie. a mini Last Battle). She was definitely surprised when Aginor and Balthamel appeared which to me suggests she hadn't really expected to face that kind of resistance there. 

 

This kind of stems from the fact that they changed the concept of what the Eye of the World is between the show and the book.  

 

Agree 100%