tv show spoilers S1E8: The Eye of the World

[EmreY]

2 hours ago, Sabio said:

We have seen mass healing, a shield saving everyone, Egwene looking like she saved Nyn, five people destroying 10000 trollocs, If they destroyed 10000 trollocs, what needs to be done to make people impressed later?

 

Well, off the top of my head:

Spoiler

Nynaeve healing things that are not supposed to be healable

Rand killing 150,000, with bodies strewn in heaps, not just dotted across a landscape

Rand & Nynaeve destroying both Shagar Logoth and the Taint

... and more

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by EmreY

[MasterAblar]

I'm not bothered by the show of power there at Tarwin's Gap. It's clearly meant to mirror Eldrene at Manetheren, and is the result of pulling far more of the power than is safe. In execution it probably wasn't shown very well. It seems highly unlikely anyone will be doing that again considering the cost.

 

I do question whether such a massive show of power so early on is a good idea, but then Rand did the same thing in the books, and that was thank to the Eye not his own abilities. 

[Padmehlc]

2 hours ago, Chadouken said:

Wait, you mean you aren't fluent in the Old Tongue? Bruh.

Lol! I wish. But also pronounciation in the show is different than what was in my head reading the books - mostly syllable stress and vowel combinations but enough to make it more difficult to understand spoken over written (where I can look up words as well).  

 

But I did fix it - aspect ratio was way off. Makes so much more sense now! 

[MasterAblar]

2 minutes ago, Padmehlc said:

Lol! I wish. But also pronounciation in the show is different than what was in my head reading the books - mostly syllable stress and vowel combinations but enough to make it more difficult to understand spoken over written (where I can look up words as well).  

 

But I did fix it - aspect ratio was way off. Makes so much more sense now! 

 

Lol I can't imagine what it was like watching that the first time. I would have just looked at my girlfriend like "um are you getting any of this?"

[WhiteVeils]

Regarding the strategy at Tarwin's Gap.

1) For attacks of a thousand trollocs or so, the Sheinaran response was probably to send out a full cavalry charge and fight hand to hand, using archers on the wall as 'softening up' cover fire to disperse the forces.   The cavalry would mass on one side of the wall, and then come out fast through the many gates to drive into the trolloc horde.  The cavalry could break through the trollocs and reach the fades, and killing each fade would take down a large number of trollocs. It is a fast, efficient strategy.  Killling the trollocs themselves just depletes resources.
2) Given this strategy, a ditch or barrier in front of the wall would slow the cavalry charge and prevent a cavalry retreat.  Also, given this strategy, keeping 'boiling oil' as some have mentioned is not a great measure, and it takes a long time to prepare that as a new strategy.

3) When Agelmar sees that the horde is so big a cavalry charge has no way to reach the fades, then he has a real problem...that is when he knows the battle is over.  He chooses to wear the less-flexible breastplate used for a stationary fight rather than his father's cavalry armor, but he also knows that the battle is lost...this wall is not built to withhold an attack. It's not meant to. 
4) Neither Agelmar nor Amelisa know that Nynaeve or Egwene are even channelers let alone are willing to help.  They are foreigners who will be leaving with Moiraine in the morning, or will evacuate the city.  The only channelers their strategy has to put out against the trollocs is Amelisa, an Accepted, and two women too weak to go to the tower.  They could get off a lightening bolt or two, maybe....and for that, Agelmar will put his sister on the front line, facing a position that will definitely be overrun and he knows he's going to lose?  No. Put her in the city to rally the people and fight the trollocs street to street to slow them down until the city is overrun.  It was Amelisa's desperate desire not to let the city fall at all that put her out front. And even from there, she did not expect to have Nynaeve and Egwene's power on her side until they literally just showed up.

I know this all doesn't come across in the show. I wish they would explain it, but there you go.

[DreadParrot]

The link being powerful tracks in that nyn and egwene are amongst the strongest channelers in tower history, albeit raw. Amilisa was trained but lacked the strength. Her leading that link and it getting away is fine. My aggravation was in altering the rules of linking, and handing the agency of that huge moment to a character with ten minutes of screen time who then died. Rand pulling that moment is a declaration to the shadow and to the borderlands that no matter how dark the hour the light has manifested in the form of the dragon. They took that moment and put on Amilisa a character that needed no build up. We already were told tbe mantheren story, we didn’t need it shown as well. 
 

the more you alter the rules and fabric of the material they less you are able to follow the road. Moiraine didn’t say she was unable to teach rand to channel only that she was unwilling. When Ishy (guessing it was Ishy, could have been the actual Dark One) is guiding Rand his description of men channeling feels too close to how women channel. Linking has changed, women can no longer sense the spark or ability in other women or know with a look the capability of that woman. Shielding takes more effort to maintain than to break through. All these are departures from the rules that define the entire magical system that was painstakingly crafted. 
 

By the end of this episode I felt like my hopes were blindfolded and then thrown off a cliff. Halfway down the blindfold came off and I saw the seanchan tidal wave…and it felt like someone attached acme rocket boosters to an anvil and sent it after me, speeding it up so it arrived to smash me before I hit the ground. That last sequence killed the show for me. Absolutely killed it in a way that no other moment could ever hope to approach. 

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

 

 

Oaths don’t concern shadowspawn and darkfriends. Or are we just talking theoretical scenarios agains regular people?

 

The show changed the wording of the oaths so the shadowspawn exception may require more explanation from the show.

 

Books, for sure, the oaths don't matter in that case.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[MasterAblar]

Eh, they described saidin pretty acurately in the extras. Haven't really had an opportunity to really have it described in the series so we'll see what they do with it. That said they're definitely tip toeing around the differences between sadin and saidar, and at some point they're gonna have to just spit it out.

 

I do agree that having an extremely minor character like Amalisa get Rand's moment at Tarwin's Gap, but if Rand isn't there to do it I'm not sure what other option there is, other than severely downplaying it to begin with. Which may have been their original plan had Covid not messed it up. Hard to say.

[MasterAblar]

3 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

The show changed the wording of the oaths so the shadowspawn exception may require more explanation from the show.

 

Books, for sure, the oaths don't matter in that case.

 

 

I don't recall the exact wording in the show but if they actually left out shadowspawn then that's just laughably stupid. Even for Aes Sedai being tricked by the black ajah it's too far.

[ashi]

5 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I don't recall the exact wording in the show but if they actually left out shadowspawn then that's just laughably stupid. Even for Aes Sedai being tricked by the black ajah it's too far.

 

Since Amalisa (and everyone else involved) isn't a full sister, the oaths are moot, in any case.

[Mirefox]

10 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Eh, they described saidin pretty acurately in the extras. Haven't really had an opportunity to really have it described in the series so we'll see what they do with it. That said they're definitely tip toeing around the differences between sadin and saidar, and at some point they're gonna have to just spit it out.

 

I do agree that having an extremely minor character like Amalisa get Rand's moment at Tarwin's Gap, but if Rand isn't there to do it I'm not sure what other option there is, other than severely downplaying it to begin with. Which may have been their original plan had Covid not messed it up. Hard to say.

Moiraine literally had an opportunity to explain to Rand why she couldn’t teach him.  If there is a better time to explain Saidin I can’t think of one…

[ashi]

25 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I don't recall the exact wording in the show but if they actually left out shadowspawn then that's just laughably stupid. Even for Aes Sedai being tricked by the black ajah it's too far.

In S1E2:

Quote

[Moiraine] And what are [the Three Oaths]?

[Egwene] To not kill, to not lie.

[Moiraine] Exact verbiage. Words are important, and how we use them is important.

[Egwene] I don't know.

[Moiraine] One, to speak no word that is not true. Two, to make no weapon with which one person may kill another. Three, never to use the One Power as a weapon, except in the last extreme defense of her life or the life of her Warder or another Aes Sedai. [...]

It would be laughably ironic, given Moiraine's "exact verbiage", if the Oaths do indeed include the shadowspawn/darkfriend exception. I suppose, e.g. when M. snipes Be'lal, if it happens, that some will argue that Moiraine felt threatened "in her head", or that the death of Rand would be a threat to all life, or that misquoting the Oaths to Egwene was 1) not a lie, and 2) perfectly reasonable.

Edited December 28, 2021 by ashi

[EmreY]

6 minutes ago, ashi said:

It would be laughably ironic, given Moiraine's "exact verbiage", if the Oaths do indeed include the shadowspawn/darkfriend exception. I suppose, e.g. when M. snipes Be'lal, if it happens, that some will argue that Moiraine felt threatened "in her head", or that the death of Rand would be a threat to all life, or that misquoting The Oaths to Egwene was 1) not a lie, and 2) perfectly reasonable.

 

Hmmm.  Good point.

 

But, IIRC (and my memory in this is vague, so I may very well be mistaken) is it not implied in the books that the Red Ajah deal with False Dragons that way?

[MasterAblar]

19 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Moiraine literally had an opportunity to explain to Rand why she couldn’t teach him.  If there is a better time to explain Saidin I can’t think of one…

 

Oh I totally agree that's what I mean when I say they're tip toeing around it. And it's getting old.

[ashi]

8 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

Hmmm.  Good point.

 

But, IIRC (and my memory in this is vague, so I may very well be mistaken) is it not implied in the books that the Red Ajah deal with False Dragons that way?

Well, Shielding or wrapping someone in Air, or even inflicting pain (even to the extremes that they do to Rand during his accommodation in the box -- not all of them were Black Ajah) are not considered to be use of the One Power as a weapon (unless the Aes Sedai in question does so, of course).

 

But maybe you are thinking of the Sisters who need to be sufficiently close to the fighting to "feel that they are in danger" before they are able to use the O.P.?

Edited December 28, 2021 by ashi

[KakitaOCU]

  

31 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Moiraine literally had an opportunity to explain to Rand why she couldn’t teach him.  If there is a better time to explain Saidin I can’t think of one…

Aes Sedai habit and trickery.  She never says the lack of time is why she can't teach him or that if there was time she could teach him.  She let's him conflate two statements together.  That way she doesn't have to admit to weakness or lack of knowledge.

[KakitaOCU]

So rewatched and thought specifically on Agelmar's situation.
 

Enemy army is 60 Fades and 5k-10k Trollocs (So may be far less than the 10k people keep throwing around).  Yeah Nynaeve says 10k-20k  but we're talking about the words of trained scouts used to shadowspawn vs an untrained person guessing after a single look.
 

DFs are in the city and have sabotages the drawbridge meaning there's a large opening into the city instead of a fully defensible fortification.  Now I think scripting is poorly worded her since there'd be failsafes to the drawbridge, but ultimately the issue is the city can't be made fully defensible.
 

At this point Agelmar decides to bring all his forces to the Gap.  Not because "Let's last stand!" But because Fal Dara is not defensible so the best chance is to make sure the place that IS defensible holds.

During the armoring scene they mention Agelmar's father didn't think the gap could hold against a 1000 Trollocs.  Regardless of what you think of the power's involvement or not, That would suggest that Agelmar is facing a force at least 5 times larger than what was seen as near unwinnable.
 

In regards to the Power.  Agelmar admits they didn't ask the Tower for help.  Given what we as book owners know about Malkier, there's reason for Agelmar's mistrust and lack of assist.
 

Agelmar also flat out feels the battle is unwinnable and thinks this is the start of Tarmon Gaiden versus just a massive assault.  He thinks he's trying to delay so the rest of the world can ready, which means defense at all costs vs smart tactics and victory.  Even Ituralde goes this route in the last book.
 

Looking closer at the Gap Fortress again, I'm unsure why anyone argues all the archers need to be on top, where they're exposed.  There's a reason for those arrow slits and they're built to give angle of fire for the archer but next to no opening for the enemy to launch back in.

[Gary Reborn]

5 hours ago, Yojimbo said:

In the books the Shienarans are considered the best heavy calvary in the world.  Their strategy had always been to use the advantage of terrain and maneuverability, which would amplify their numbers, so that even if outnumbered they would mitigate that factor to some extent.  It had always worked in the past.  In the book, word came of Trollocs massing at Tarwin's Gap in numbers larger than had ever been seen too late for them to call for help from he other Borderland nations, so they rode there hoping that their deaths would provide time for the women and children to be evacuated.   

 

In the book, word came of Trollocs massing at Tarwin's Gap in numbers larger than had ever been seen too late for them to call for help from he other Borderland nations, so they rode there hoping that their deaths would provide time

 

I think this is basically what we saw except I think every time borderlander women were mentioned they would say they would fight as hard as the men to defend their homes so I don’t know about the whole thing about women evacuating I thought this was pretty consistently mentioned in the books when they talked about borderlander women.

 

I guess the first thing I would say is I do wish we would have gotten a Calvary charge for the reason you mention they were viewed as having the best Calvary in the world but they couldn’t film that with covid restrictions so they had to adapt. Everything outside of the calvary aspect is similar to what I said though it was a surprise offensive of more shadowspawn than they had seen and he wasn’t prepared, couldn’t get help and this wasn’t a battle he strategy wasn’t really a focus of the battle and I don’t think they even really described any strategy in depth basically they weren’t ready for that kind of force, it was considered a suicide mission they went out there as a last ditch effort, in the book it wasn’t effective either. I don’t think Agelmar comes up until book 14, I don’t think Fal Dara ever comes up again, I don’t remember hearing a lot about Uno’s skill on a horse from here on out the Shienaran’s are basically described and used as tough looking swordsmen so the amount that this changes the overall story just seems minuscule and I don’t think they really had a choice.

 

The real truth is just sending Calvary out to defend a gap is pretty horrible strategy and just having archers defend a wall is pretty horrible strategy too so neither made much sense but if you gave me a choice in how to defend a gap and I could only take one of those I take the fortification. Good strategy would be they should have fortifications with Archers and Infantry to hold those fortifications and defend archers and Calvary that could quickly strike and retreat into fortifications if needed.

[KakitaOCU]

10 minutes ago, Gary Reborn said:

The real truth is just sending Calvary out to defend a gap is pretty horrible strategy and just having archers defend a wall is pretty horrible strategy too so neither made much sense but if you gave me a choice in how to defend a gap and I could only take one of those I take the fortification. Good strategy would be they should have fortifications with Archers and Infantry to hold those fortifications and defend archers and Calvary that could quickly strike and retreat into fortifications if needed.

Honestly, the Shienarans being heavy Cavalry always confused the heck out of me.  All four border lands are based on defensive strategy trying to hold back the blight.  That would suggest some cavalry but mostly archer/artillery and infantry.

Saldea makes sense with their light cavalry because we know from the map that the nastier part of the blight is the one north of Shienar.  Out by Saldea it's likely more raids and mobility is key to respond to groups of trollocs in numerous places.  

But Shienar as Heavy Cavalry only makes sense if they're just a support segment for Malkier.  But since Malkier's fall they managed to make Fal Dara a fortress, set the Gap up.  So they clearly were thinking about defensive tactics.

[WhiteVeils]

Cavalry makes sense if you  think that killing one Fade can take out 500 or 1000 trollocs. You use cavalry to reach the Fades and ignore the trollocs as best you can.  You won't be able to reach the Fades with arrows, because they'll just stay out of bowshot until the Trollocs finish you off.

[ashi]

13 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Enemy army is 60 Fades and 5k-10k Trollocs (So may be far less than the 10k people keep throwing around).  Yeah Nynaeve says 10k-20k  but we're talking about the words of trained scouts used to shadowspawn vs an untrained person guessing after a single look.

I don't know, Nynaeve is sharp enough to pick up a tell of Moiraine's, presumably at once after leaving Emond's Field, that Lan didn't notice after 20 years. We should surely trust her estimation over that of Borderlanders.

[RextheDog]

13 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

So rewatched and thought specifically on Agelmar's situation.
 

Enemy army is 60 Fades and 5k-10k Trollocs (So may be far less than the 10k people keep throwing around).  Yeah Nynaeve says 10k-20k  but we're talking about the words of trained scouts used to shadowspawn vs an untrained person guessing after a single look.
 

DFs are in the city and have sabotages the drawbridge meaning there's a large opening into the city instead of a fully defensible fortification.  Now I think scripting is poorly worded her since there'd be failsafes to the drawbridge, but ultimately the issue is the city can't be made fully defensible.
 

At this point Agelmar decides to bring all his forces to the Gap.  Not because "Let's last stand!" But because Fal Dara is not defensible so the best chance is to make sure the place that IS defensible holds.

During the armoring scene they mention Agelmar's father didn't think the gap could hold against a 1000 Trollocs.  Regardless of what you think of the power's involvement or not, That would suggest that Agelmar is facing a force at least 5 times larger than what was seen as near unwinnable.
 

In regards to the Power.  Agelmar admits they didn't ask the Tower for help.  Given what we as book owners know about Malkier, there's reason for Agelmar's mistrust and lack of assist.
 

Agelmar also flat out feels the battle is unwinnable and thinks this is the start of Tarmon Gaiden versus just a massive assault.  He thinks he's trying to delay so the rest of the world can ready, which means defense at all costs vs smart tactics and victory.  Even Ituralde goes this route in the last book.
 

Looking closer at the Gap Fortress again, I'm unsure why anyone argues all the archers need to be on top, where they're exposed.  There's a reason for those arrow slits and they're built to give angle of fire for the archer but next to no opening for the enemy to launch back in.

 

its also quite possible the whole attack was called off the moment Fain walked away with the Horn...

 

nearly burning out eggy and Nyn for laying waste to less than less than 5000 Trollocs who were at best sacraficial.... that would reframe the whole scene....

 

i dont know if it will happen, but few scenes early in season 2 which play down the size of the attack and/or the mission ....

 

that would reframe everything without changing anything

[WoTwasThat]

33 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Oh I totally agree that's what I mean when I say they're tip toeing around it. And it's getting old.

 

Why do you think they are "tip toeing around it"? To me, the distinction between Saidar and Saidin, the taint upon the latter, and why, is at the very heart of the story. This should have been explained near the outset. There were ample opportunities to delve into this throughout the season, and yet the writers appear to be deliberately avoiding it. I don't think this is negligence - it appears to be very deliberate - but I don't think it is helping the story.

[KakitaOCU]

5 minutes ago, ashi said:

I don't know, Nynaeve is sharp enough to pick up a tell of Moiraine's, presumably at once after leaving Emond's Field, that Lan didn't notice after 20 years. We should surely trust her estimation over that of Borderlanders.

The thought that you might be joking aside.  There's a fundamental difference between her ability to pick something up that she is specifically trained to do and her ability to quickly count number of a swarm from a sizeable distance away.

 

7 minutes ago, RextheDog said:

its also quite possible the whole attack was called off the moment Fain walked away with the Horn...

The attack was ALWAYS a fake out.  If it happened to be successful, yay, keep going.  But ultimately it was meant to distract from Fain, meant to maybe draw Rand or Moraine into a defensive situation where they could be weakened...  

 

 

6 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

 I don't think this is negligence - it appears to be very deliberate - but I don't think it is helping the story.

I think it's actually serving a few points.

#1: as I mentioned earlier it keeps showing Moraine's inability to share, trust or let in anyone other than Siuan.  Rand asks a simple question and she reflexively Aes Sedai answers.

#2: This actually helps train the sharper audience to read Aes Sedai speak.  Observant watchers will see her give that excuse, but then pick up on Ishamael later saying "You can't even see what he's doing."   That combined with people remembering season 4 will be asking "Can she even teach him?  How does she teach if she can't see what he's doing?"

Also, I remember this question repeating itself with book readers until book 5/6 as I recall.  
 

Spoiler

Moraine always uses the "Bird teach a fish to fly or a fish teaching bird to swim."  

Verin then jabs a hole in that by pointing out there's exceptions.  

I remember frequent talks as a kid with the readers in my family saying "Well yeah, they can't SHOW, but they can explain.  

Then in book 5/6 (Been a while, sorry) Egwene tries to have Rand explain Traveling to her.  And he describes what he does and she freaks out over it.  Then later asks Moghedien about doing it Rand's way and she freaks out and says it'd kill you and that that's "How men travel."   So fundamentally even how to you weave the two powers is different.)

 

[WhiteVeils]

11 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

 

Why do you think they are "tip toeing around it"? To me, the distinction between Saidar and Saidin, the taint upon the latter, and why, is at the very heart of the story. This should have been explained near the outset. There were ample opportunities to delve into this throughout the season, and yet the writers appear to be deliberately avoiding it. I don't think this is negligence - it appears to be very deliberate - but I don't think it is helping the story.

I guess in response I gotta ask...why do you think the difference between Saidin and Saidar is the very heart of the story?  As opposed to, say, "It was all of them" or any number of other really important themes the story delves into?