tv show spoilers S1E8: The Eye of the World

[Skipp]

5 minutes ago, 7th age said:

 No, really cant agree here.

Perhaps Im seriously misremembering this because its been a while since i last read the end of EotW, but as far as I remember Aginor and Balthamel arrive before Rand ever channels. Not to mention the fact they find the Horn and Banner, they rescue the army and the whole winter to spring theme. This last one confirms to me (and Moiraine if i remember correctly thoug ofc shes an unreliably narrator), that this ends as a victory for the light.

It is true that Aginor and Balthamel are free by the time they reach the eye but there were imprisoned near the "surface" and their bodies faced the ravages of time.  But you have to consider why the "DO" planted 3 different seeds about a threat to the Eye of the World, he clearly wanted the DR there but for what reason?

 

My personal theory was that the Eye was created to give the DR a surge of clean Saidin to boost his initial power without having to deal with early bouts of madness.  But in doing so also broke the first seal. 

 

Unfortunately we may never know the truth as the ending of tEotW is hotly debated and confusing.

In the books all we know for sure is that the "DO" planted seeds about a threat to the Eye. 

Secondly The DR channels all the strength of the eye killing Aginor and destroying a Trolloc army.

Thirdly they found a broken seal next the the horn and the Dragon banner.

 

In the show we know the "DO" lured the DR to the Eye.

The DR had 3 apparent outcomes either he resists the DO, submits to the DO or Moiraine kills the DR.

The "DO" was ultimately resisted but was "destroyed" with a smirk on this face.

And a floor of cuendillar, presumably a seal, was broken.

[7th age]

Also, wouldnt Rand breaking the seal imply he could channel the true power even then???

I speculated earlier that maybe a tainted Saidin would be able to break Cuendillar by "overloading it with corruption", but this doesnt really work for the bookending since the pool was untainted.

[KakitaOCU]

13 minutes ago, 7th age said:

 No, really cant agree here.

Perhaps Im seriously misremembering this because its been a while since i last read the end of EotW, but as far as I remember Aginor and Balthamel arrive before Rand ever channels. Not to mention the fact they find the Horn and Banner, they rescue the army and the whole winter to spring theme. This last one confirms to me (and Moiraine if i remember correctly thoug ofc shes an unreliably narrator), that this ends as a victory for the light.

Yep, people certainly thought it was a victory for the light.

As I recall even by Book 6 characters with wisdom and insight were very much in the camp of "We're winning, everything works out, Forsaken fall dead at Rand's feet and the dark can't stop us!"   And it was, for the most part, almost like the DO threw his more expendable minions out as giant distractions while the real people did the important work elsewhere (IE Aginor, Balthamel, Belal, to a lesser extent Sammael and Rahvin set up to be distractions.  Meanwhile Demandred, Semirhage, Messana and Ishamael did the important stuff that almost doomed the light.

[TheDreadReader]

13 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

This is a theory of what happened in the book.  The "DO" planted several stories of a threat to the Eye meaning to lure the DR there.  After Rand does what he does in the book they find a shattered seal.  So even in the books this plot line has always been a theory as to why the DO pushed our heroes there.

 

TBH, that is always been my understanding.   

 

I basically figure that pretty much everything in the first three books goes according to Ishy's general plan.

 

 

 

 

[7th age]

Were all of the seeds planted by Ishy? I vaguely remember Ishy taunting them about it, but i cant remember for sure.  But this kinda makes sense to in that he was trying to lure Rand into an early confrontation and remeber that the real DO clearly states in aMoL that Ishy doesnt quite understand nature of the last battle(though he probably understands more then anyone else with only Verin maybe coming close).

 

Anyhow, your theory about the eye giving the dragon an early boost makes total sense to me, but the breaking part I dont buy, it doesnt fit with the rest. That would mean A. and B. couldve eascaped the prison while all seals were still intact. But more importantly it doesnt fit with how the world is mirroring the dragon. This would actually make more sense in the show, as here it is a complete loss for the light (army gets destroyed+horn gets taken).

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

TBH, that is always been my understanding.   

 

I basically figure that pretty much everything in the first three books goes according to Ishy's general plan.

 

 

 

 

Except for actually dying in tDR, then again this is Ishy we are talking about.

[dwn]

6 minutes ago, 7th age said:

Also, wouldnt Rand breaking the seal imply he could channel the true power even then???

I speculated earlier that maybe a tainted Saidin would be able to break Cuendillar by "overloading it with corruption", but this doesnt really work for the bookending since the pool was untainted.

In the books the weakened Seals could be broken with your fingers.

 

Perhaps the DO (or Ishy) needed Rand in the distorted reality of the Eye (or the blight) where the metaphysical confrontation between the Dragon and the Shadow could kick things off. The ending of TEotW is just weird, so who knows what the real reason is, if there even is one.

[TheDreadReader]

Just now, Skipp said:

Except for actually dying in tDR, then again this is Ishy we are talking about.

 

True.  I probably should have specified up to his death. ?

 

 

[first when not last]

1 hour ago, NinjaPowers975 said:

Even so, the Nynaeve death fakeout was a terrible call. Same for the Loial death fakeout. Too many death fakeouts in general. They even had the fake Moiraine death during the blight dream sequence.

I agree with everything else you said, particularly about the Moiraine death fakeout, and the Loial/uno death fakeout, but do differ a little on the Nynaeve death fakeout. I think when a person is very severely injured and falls, it can look for a short while like they are dead (and for longer if they are unconscious. so that one I can live with.

 

You are so right about Eps. 1 and 8 being in general hot messes.

[Skipp]

4 minutes ago, 7th age said:

Were all of the seeds planted by Ishy? I vaguely remember Ishy taunting them about it, but i cant remember for sure.  But this kinda makes sense to in that he was trying to lure Rand into an early confrontation and remeber that the real DO clearly states in aMoL that Ishy doesnt quite understand nature of the last battle(though he probably understands more then anyone else with only Verin maybe coming close).

 

Anyhow, your theory about the eye giving the dragon an early boost makes total sense to me, but the breaking part I dont buy, it doesnt fit with the rest. That would mean A. and B. couldve eascaped the prison while all seals were still intact. But more importantly it doesnt fit with how the world is mirroring the dragon. This would actually make more sense in the show, as here it is a complete loss for the light (army gets destroyed+horn gets taken).

We know he taunted the 3 boys about the Eye in their dreams.  He also mentions that Releasing Jain Farstrider to the Ogier's with a warning was his plan as well.  I am unsure if we learn how the Maidens of the spear found out.

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, first when not last said:

I agree with everything else you said, particularly about the Moiraine death fakeout, and the Loial/uno death fakeout, but do differ a little on the Nynaeve death fakeout. I think when a person is very severely injured and falls, it can look for a short while like they are dead (and for longer if they are unconscious. so that one I can live with.

 

You are so right about Eps. 1 and 8 being in general hot messes.

Both certainly could have used another 30 minutes to a full hour.

[7th age]

3 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

True.  I probably should have specified up to his death. ?

 

 

 

 

Well, DYING certainly was his deepest desire, it is the DO that screwed up that part of the plan?

[first when not last]

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

Both certainly could have used another 30 minutes to a full hour.

Yes to this. Both these episodes had to fit in a lot of complex story. They might have been able to do each episode as two episodes in a 10 episode season, and tha tmight have allowed them to do better exposition and organize the material better.

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, first when not last said:

Yes to this. Both these episodes had to fit in a lot of complex story. They might have been able to do each episode as two episodes in a 10 episode season, and tha tmight have allowed them to do better exposition and organize the material better.

And that is, unfortunately entirely on Amazon.  We know RJ2 asked for 10 episodes and a 2 hour premier but Amazon wants only 1 h 8 episode seasons.  Hopefully this will change in the future.

[7th age]

9 minutes ago, dwn said:

In the books the weakened Seals could be broken with your fingers.

 

 

Right...it is the DOs pressure that "uncuendillared" them before and then anyone could break them. Forgot about that.

 

I still dont buy that it was Rand, mostly because of the other stuff happening and "the land mirroring the dragon".

 

Also, even if he did it, if the Forsaken could escape even with all seals intact there wouldnt be that much of a downside.

 

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, 7th age said:

 

 

Right...it is the DOs pressure that "uncuendillared" them before and then anyone could break them. Forgot about that.

 

I still dont buy that it was Rand, mostly because of the other stuff happening and "the land mirroring the dragon".

 

Also, even if he did it, if the Forsaken could escape even with all seals intact there wouldnt be that much of a downside.

 

Valid interpretation, but we are left is what actually broke the first seal.  We know from Lan that it was still cuendillar as he breaks a knife on it.

[first when not last]

5 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Hopefully this will change in the future.

Agree. Hope springs eternal ...

[7th age]

2 minutes ago, Skipp said:

We know from Lan that it was still cuendillar as he breaks a knife on it

 

So what dwn said is only true later on?

 

LOL@myself I just realized how much I missed this theorizing, thx for helping me to come to that conclusion Skipp.

Also, as much as anyone can be disappointed about the show, certainly we can all agree that this bringing loads of people to the books and being able to discuss it with our nonbookie friends is a massive upside. If  I hate every minute of every episode that is to come, that alone makes the production of it worthwhile.

[dwn]

5 minutes ago, 7th age said:

So what dwn said [about the weakened seals being fragile] is only true later on?

The seal they find in the Eye is still hard, but broken--we're never given an explanation for how it broke. Later seals become physically brittle. My main point was that breaking a seal didn't necessarily require using the TP. It's probably some metaphysical mix of the DO's touch being corrosive to reality and that not even cuendillar can prevent the DO from breaking free.

[Spiritweaver1]

2 hours ago, Katherine said:

So now my hope is this that this will be another Dune. That this travesty of an adaptation will fade away and In 20 years someone with talent and vision will come along with a faithful, well done , brilliant adaptation. Until then  I weep, as those ancient ones wept for Manatheren. 

I am with you sister!

 

I can't bear to read all these posts but I have a couple of wondering moments.  I read an interview this morning with Rafe (Destroyer of Hope) where he says Loial will be healed.  I saw at least two stabs of the SL dagger so I don't understand how that is going to work given the dagger is totally contaminated with SL evil even in the show??  i join those who call for consistent rules!!!

 

Upon an evenings reflection I can't stand the whole blight/shayol ghul combination.  That is not the bore.  There is no one seal holding in the DO.  There are seven seals which are lost and show up periodically in various states of repair.  Those seals are said (in the books to be physical focal points for the energies which keep the DO imprisoned.  In addition shayol guhl is a large valley with the forges of Tha'kandar and a mountain in which the bore exists where Rafe and his team do most of their writing.  In AMOL there is quite a battle fought there, with large armies.  So how can the bore be in a flat plain no more than 15 kilometers (one days journey through the mangroves) from the blight boarder.    in addition Mo and Rand have been hiking for a couple of hours and then suddenly they can see through the trees to see the 5-6 thousand strong trolloc army heading for the gap.  There is no road so all those trollocs had to have been filtering through the blight.  The chances of Mo and Rand not encountering them is exactly zero.  It strains a 6 year old's credibility.   

 

This plus my previous post is why I also hope this will be another Dune.  They had a road map for success and in their pride and arrogance thought they could do better by writing a new story.  I foretell more of the same as they unweave more threads from the pattern that they were given already woven.  Comic book hacks all of them.   RJ was a singular talent and I too weep for the wheel of time story that could have been.

 

Can you tell I am transforming into Nyn??  Mad I am not mad.   

 

[notpropaganda73]

I’ve watched it twice since my initial very raw post and I don’t feel any better about the episode. It was really really bad imo. We can make allowances for circumstances outside of their control but can we blame Covid and Barney Harris leaving for the terrible dialogue from Moiraine when saying she can’t teach Rand? Like it’s right there, you now have an opportunity to explain that women and men channeling is fundamentally different and they just decide to talk about the madness instead? Awful.

 

But my biggest issue with the episode is completely separate from book lore and book changes etc. A huge complaint all season has been that the women are superheroes and the men are useless… but Nynaeve and Egwene *literally do nothing* here. They are used, conduits of the One Power… there is nothing impressive, no actual action from them. They just stand there and that’s it. Are we supposed to care? Nynaeve has been shown through the season to be powerful with no control and here she… is powerful and has no control. Wow, what an arc. Egwene has been shown to have potential and she’s determined and here, her power is used and she… has no agency. Wow guys. Just ignore the books for a second - within the show, it was bad bad bad. 

 

I am looking forward to S2 and I pray they have smoothed out issues from S1, but I will be so much less forgiving than I have been. There is a mantra in Hollywood about finishing the picture on a high: even if the middle of a movie is mediocre as long as the audience walk out of the theatre feeling great, you’ve done well. The big big problem with having such a terrible finale is leaving a sour taste in everyone’s mouth. Weakest episode by FAR

[templar7]

Did anyone else notice that this reveal from the opening of episode 8 was in fact the same valley from the beginning  of episode 1?

 

 

[Scarloc99]

16 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

I am with you sister!

 

I can't bear to read all these posts but I have a couple of wondering moments.  I read an interview this morning with Rafe (Destroyer of Hope) where he says Loial will be healed.  I saw at least two stabs of the SL dagger so I don't understand how that is going to work given the dagger is totally contaminated with SL evil even in the show??  i join those who call for consistent rules!!!

 

Upon an evenings reflection I can't stand the whole blight/shayol ghul combination.  That is not the bore.  There is no one seal holding in the DO.  There are seven seals which are lost and show up periodically in various states of repair.  Those seals are said (in the books to be physical focal points for the energies which keep the DO imprisoned.  In addition shayol guhl is a large valley with the forges of Tha'kandar and a mountain in which the bore exists where Rafe and his team do most of their writing.  In AMOL there is quite a battle fought there, with large armies.  So how can the bore be in a flat plain no more than 15 kilometers (one days journey through the mangroves) from the blight boarder.    in addition Mo and Rand have been hiking for a couple of hours and then suddenly they can see through the trees to see the 5-6 thousand strong trolloc army heading for the gap.  There is no road so all those trollocs had to have been filtering through the blight.  The chances of Mo and Rand not encountering them is exactly zero.  It strains a 6 year old's credibility.   

 

This plus my previous post is why I also hope this will be another Dune.  They had a road map for success and in their pride and arrogance thought they could do better by writing a new story.  I foretell more of the same as they unweave more threads from the pattern that they were given already woven.  Comic book hacks all of them.   RJ was a singular talent and I too weep for the wheel of time story that could have been.

 

Can you tell I am transforming into Nyn??  Mad I am not mad.   

 

My one hope here is that the knowledge as to what the dark ones prison is has been lost/removed possibly by the dark ajah. We have already seen Morraine doesn’t know everything and the in world lore is wrong, this is a typical tv story telling idea, the audience learns at the same pace as the characters. It means the characters are not constantly telling each other things they know just so the audience finds out. 
 

In a book the rules are different because the author can talk directly to the reader. 

[7th age]

1 minute ago, dwn said:

The seal they find in the Eye is still hard, but broken--we're never given an explanation for how it broke. Later seals become physically brittle. My main point was that breaking a seal didn't necessarily require using the TP. It's probably some metaphysical mix of the DO's touch being corrosive to reality and that not even cuendillar can prevent the DO from breaking free.

That is how I have interpreted it in the past, but if Rand is the one to break it he couldnt have done it with Saidin, so i figured that would require him doing it via TP (which doesnt seem to fit in my mind).

 

Bringing this back to the show though, certainly here Rand is the one to break it, no nuance here.

And since he doesnt find  the Horn/Banner and doesnt destroy the army, we are left with 3 guys, one who seems be going over to the shadow, one who just lets the enemy take the most valuable item ever while his friend is bleeding out and he does NOTHING???? and one who gets tricked into using the his power, "increased by a hundredfold" (which somehow visually doesnt even come close to Nyn) to do the DOs bidding...

Then again it is not like all the dudes got shafted. Right now Im all in for # PadanFain2024.  Seems to me a guy who strives for balance would be a vast improvement to most polticians today.?

 

Im a lefty (not a liberal in the american sense) and for the most part of my life i considered myself a feminist, but even as forgiving as i can be towards many of the changes they mades, this episode made it clear there is an agenda here, and it certainly doesnt improve the story.

Heck I wrote this earlier,  having women (and children???) fight for the defense of Fal Dara is a 100% reversal of Borderlander Culture, and the reason that this doesnt fly with them is obvious, men have no business telling women what to do (though the reverse is ok).  This makes me wonder whether they will keep the "rather die then let a women take a wound" and more importantly how they will deal with Rand (and Mat) being almost incapable of harming women/ Rands guilttripping over it.

[WoTwasThat]

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

And that is, unfortunately entirely on Amazon.  We know RJ2 asked for 10 episodes and a 2 hour premier but Amazon wants only 1 h 8 episode seasons.  Hopefully this will change in the future.

How would two more episodes, or ten more episodes, have avoided the massive deviations from the book? By massive deviations, I’m talking things like….

1. DR can be a man or woman.

2. Super Nynaeve saves the day. Again, and again, and again….

3. No Saidar/Saidin.

4. This Lan is super in touch with his feelings and stuff.

5. Rand and Eg having sex. Suian and Mo having sex. Everybody’s getting some! Even Lan and Nyn have sex, out of wedlock (that’s super in-character for Nyn) and we even get a walk of shame with an Egwene “oooh girl” moment. 

6. Let’s make the Eye “the Dark One’s prison” and concoct The Dumbest Plan In History to take a totally untrained DR to face him.

7. Rand figures out he’s the DR through a montage of Min and flashbacks, then tells Mo, and she’s like Ok.

8. Tarwin’s Gap “battle” LOL.

9. Rand struts off into the Blight.

 

I guess I’m just confused by the reasoning that “things would have been closer to the book if they’d had more time.”