tv show spoilers S1E8: The Eye of the World

[Mirefox]

35 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

I understand. I live in Atlanta. Snow is a terrifying thing for us. 
 

Anyways, let’s get back on topic. What did everyone think about Amalisa? She clearly trained enough to make Accepted if she knew enough to make a link. But the lack of discipline that led to her losing control of the circle is clearly why she didn’t go further. 

I don’t think the burning out part bothered me.  My two biggest issues were 1) how tactically ridiculous it was that the channel we’re in the middle of a field.  Why not on top of the wall, or if not at the front, on Fal Dara’s ramparts?  All of the borderlanders looked a bit incompetent.  And 2) that was way too powerful for a tower dropout, to not-yet-novices, and 2 wilders.  The power creep in this show is a bit much.

[Rand the Plumber]

JRRT famously refused to consider visual adaptation of LotR because he believed it to be "unfilmable" - although I think he wouldn't have been totally disappointed in Peter Jackson's efforts.

 

Did RJ ever say anything similar about WoT?

[Bruan]

15 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I think this just raises the stakes and danger of using circles for anything. This is a good change for the show and will make moments like

  Reveal hidden contents

The Bowl Of The Winds and Rand/Nynaeve Shadar Logath moments more resonant to viewers (I hope).

 

You may be right. But I’m not sure the stakes would need to be raised if they kept true to the characters with all their strengths, weaknesses, flaws, insecurities, etc. As they were in the books. Or kept the basic lore, history and magical system as it existed in the books intact.

[Bruan]

3 minutes ago, Rand the Plumber said:

JRRT famously refused to consider visual adaptation of LotR because he believed it to be "unfilmable" - although I think he wouldn't have been totally disappointed in Peter Jackson's efforts.

 

Did RJ ever say anything similar about WoT?

well, did he say it was unfilmable prior to the days of CGI and modern makeup/prosthetics? Because I can see how something like LotR being undoable on film in 1952...

[JenniferL]

14 minutes ago, Rand the Plumber said:

JRRT famously refused to consider visual adaptation of LotR because he believed it to be "unfilmable" - although I think he wouldn't have been totally disappointed in Peter Jackson's efforts.

 

Did RJ ever say anything similar about WoT?

Jordan was the one who sold the rights to Red Eagle well before he was sick. In the early 2000s he sold the rights to NBC to make a miniseries from the Eye of the World. Jordan stated several times that if they made something similar to Merlin, he’d be satisfied. I cannot say if he’d approve of this particular adaptation, but he was open to them and seemed to understand changes would be necessary. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin_(miniseries)

[Cellardur]

19 minutes ago, Rand the Plumber said:

JRRT famously refused to consider visual adaptation of LotR because he believed it to be "unfilmable" - although I think he wouldn't have been totally disappointed in Peter Jackson's efforts.

 

Did RJ ever say anything similar about WoT?

Tolkien would almost certainly  have been appalled and hated the Peter Jackson films more than anyone. 

[JenniferL]

25 minutes ago, Cellardur said:

Tolkien would almost certainly  have been appalled and hated the Peter Jackson films more than anyone. 

The Tolkien estate had no say in the movies and Christopher Tolkien, JRRT’s son, absolutely hated them and was pretty public about it. The sale of the tv series rights to Amazon happened almost immediately after he retired from the board of the estate. I believe C. Tolkien passed away before it was announced. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Tolkien

Edited December 25, 2021 by JenniferL
Edited to add a link so you can read up on C Tolkien

[Sabio]

One possible change that I noticed from the books is Moiraine tells Rand she can't lie, but we know from the books that being stilled breaks the three oaths.  So either she doesn't know the Oaths are gone or they changed that detail.

[DaddyFinn]

7 minutes ago, Sabio said:

One possible change that I noticed from the books is Moiraine tells Rand she can't lie, but we know from the books that being stilled breaks the three oaths.  So either she doesn't know the Oaths are gone or they changed that detail.

Or we are being played and Moiraine is permanently shielded. Dunno, BS said she is stilled but it just didn't look like it. Has Rafe confirmed that she was stilled?

[VooDooNut]

5 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Or we are being played and Moiraine is permanently shielded. Dunno, BS said she is stilled but it just didn't look like it. Has Rafe confirmed that she was stilled?

Yeah, I'm hesitant to believe she's stilled. The visuals of the weave Ishamael used on her looked like a shield, not like the gentling of Logain. Also, someone said this earlier, but Lan would have felt something if she had been stilled, right?

Edited December 25, 2021 by VooDooNut

[Mirefox]

14 minutes ago, Sabio said:

One possible change that I noticed from the books is Moiraine tells Rand she can't lie, but we know from the books that being stilled breaks the three oaths.  So either she doesn't know the Oaths are gone or they changed that detail.

I just assumed it was habit.  There was also the possibility that she was trying to not burden Rand with that information.

[Mirefox]

2 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Yeah, I'm hesitant to believe she's stilled. The visuals of the weave Ishamael used on her looked like a shield, not like the gentling of Logain. Also, someone said this earlier, but Lan would have felt something if she had been stilled, right?

Maybe, but they also play fast and loose with the lore.  I assumed that they are treating masking as feeling the same for lan as her shielding/stilling.

 

I wonder how the passing of his bond plays into this.

[Yojimbo]

20 minutes ago, Sabio said:

One possible change that I noticed from the books is Moiraine tells Rand she can't lie, but we know from the books that being stilled breaks the three oaths.  So either she doesn't know the Oaths are gone or they changed that detail.

Honestly, I would give up on the idea that they are going to follow the rules as Jordan set them up.  It feels more like to the writers they are not so much Rules as Suggestions.

[VooDooNut]

57 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Honestly, I would give up on the idea that they are going to follow the rules as Jordan set them up.  It feels more like to the writers they are not so much Rules as Suggestions.

I agree that it appears the magic system is different in the show. It'll be interesting to see if the writers are consistent with visual depictions of weavings based on their own rules going forward. I don't think they've done anything , beyond Logaine seeing Nynaeve's weave, that bothers me so far.

 

Oh! I just thought of this...what if Logaine is actually seeing Nynaeve's ta'veren nature "like the sun" and not the weaves she is casting?

 

Spoiler

That's Logaine's talent, right?

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by VooDooNut
Logain

[Cellardur]

19 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

The Tolkien estate had no say in the movies and Christopher Tolkien, JRRT’s son, absolutely hated them and was pretty public about it. The sale of the tv series rights to Amazon happened almost immediately after he retired from the board of the estate. I believe C. Tolkien passed away before it was announced. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Tolkien

Yes and it is thanks to him that we have the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tapes and the HoME. Apart from JRRT nobody knows the works better than him.

 

It goes back to what I said previously that the LoTR film are less faithful in every way than season 1 of WOT.

 

Another thing I would like to add is that WOT is a 14 book series. I don't think it's possible for the writers to have read the complete series. The more you read the more you understand about all the characters. 

 

Again I may be repeating myself but there's not really much to Mat in the fist books due to the dagger. 

 

Other complaints are about just how capable Lan is. I am still not aware that Lan is the greatest swordsman and tracker of his age. I am near the end of third book and I get that Lan is exceptional, but nothing to suggest he is the best of even the Warders. I would guess that Suan and Leanne probably have better Warders. Also nothing indicates he is any better than the other swordsman who have Heron blades, let alone people who use other weapons.

 

In fact as things stand I would think Abell and Tam at in their primes are just as good as Lan.

 

I do think it's notable that the men in the show have had limited moments to shine, but Nynaeve seems pretty super in the books too.

 

She can track almost as well as Lan, can sneak passed trained white cloaks and Lan respects her skills. She is a wilder that managed to use the saider without dying,  healed Ergwene from a fever, learns things after seeing them just once and with no real training can pin the Amyrlin Seat on a wall. 

 

I wonder if a big part of the problem is that the majority of the writers have only read the books up to where it is necessary for the current series, which means they get a lot of things wrong.

[DaddyFinn]

10 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

beyond Logaine seeing Nynaeve's weave

Still going with this?

 

https://www.wotseries.com/2021/12/23/qa-rafe-judkins-and-alvaro-morte/

 

Quote

Question: Was Logain able to see Nynaeve’s weaves? It looked like he was shielding his eyes.

Rafe Judkins: I ‘d shield my eyes if I saw a woman absolutely explode with energy that shook the cave, Healed a dozen people and undid her braid. Braid-undoing energy is blinding, yo.

 

[VooDooNut]

Just now, DaddyFinn said:

Still going with this?

 

https://www.wotseries.com/2021/12/23/qa-rafe-judkins-and-alvaro-morte/

 

 

Huh, yeah I missed this convo.  Thanks @DaddyFinnThat answers that. (I think I'll still believe my theory though and pretend Rafe is throwing us off the scent.)

[Ralph]

There are many things I disliked in this episode, but also many I liked. 

 

1) I loved PF and his interaction with Perrin. PF is the only one in the world who knows all five are important for the final battle, and he is simultaneously showing P how he can lose by not being willing to take up a weapon (losing the horn, etc), but also describing it as the Dark side and comparing to Mat when he does take it in response. That is going to eat at Perrin. 

Clear Perrin has actually tried to adopt the Way of the Leaf, which is taking it further than the books. 

 

2) Surprised people are saying Rand didn't have a major moment. He didn't have a moment that was visually impressive, but afawk in the show he defeated the DO, who had just dealt with M in two seconds flat. If we think about it that is far more impressive than any armies of Trollocs. 

 

3) Not at all surprised they took Tarwin's Gap from Rand. RJII said to make it more ensemble, but besides that I know many book readers have always been very puzzled by the end of EotW, how he travels, the VOICE, etc etc. It is all very different from the rest of the series. 

And I think this is what RJII meant in that interview explaining the changes. 

I am extremely curious what he is referring to that RJ hated in the EotW, that we will pick up next season. 

 

That said, although I see why they took it from Rand, I didn't like what they did instead. It is clear Amalisa thought she was throwing her life away like her brother had, because she had no chance of saving the city anyway. Then two mega power cells turned up, but still... And the Eg healing N bit was unneeded. 

 

4) The sa'angreal M said male channellers died making it. So it seems they are trying to make it similar to the Eye. Hope we will find out more

 

5) Rand going off by himself is straight from book 3. M letting him doesn't bother me at this point, besides which she was not really in control of herself any more. 

 

6) Re the prologue, agree with some of the criticism, but LTT does say to the baby he is making the world a safer place for them. 

 

7) The tidal wave I thought is going to carry the ships up to the top of the cliffs. We will see

 

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Ralph

[Skipp]

12 minutes ago, Ralph said:

4) The sa'angreal M said male channellers died making it. So it seems they are trying to make it similar to the Eye. Hope we will find out more

 

 

 

 

We never actually learned how Angreal and Sa'angreal are made.  So this is an interesting interpretation of it and why they are so rare. 

 

Like imagine angreal are made by a single channeler sacrificing all of their power to make one and Sa'angreal are mutliple channelers combined sacrificing their power to make them.  Kinda like something an old age channeler might decide to do to give themselves a legacy.

[Elendir]

12 minutes ago, Ralph said:

2) Surprised people are saying Rand didn't have a major moment. He didn't have a moment that was visually impressive, but afawk in the show he defeated the DO, who had just dealt with M in two seconds flat. If we think about it that is far more impressive than any armies of Trollocs.

He wasn't Dark One and it looked to me more like he made Rand destroy one of the seal.

Ishamael couldn't get maine victory, so he fooled Rand to obtain secondary objective.

 

I understand, that they wanted increse role of others, but they don't need diminish Rand role to "not fall under Dark One influence" only.

[Ralph]

3 minutes ago, Elendir said:

He wasn't Dark One and it looked to me more like he made Rand destroy one of the seal.

Ishamael couldn't get maine victory, so he fooled Rand to obtain secondary objective.

 

I understand, that they wanted increse role of others, but they don't need diminish Rand role to "not fall under Dark One influence" only.

Show watchers and Moiraine think he was the Dark One. Exactly as the books. And he def hoped Rand would join him, not what happened. It could be breaking the Seal also helps him, but that's not what he hoped for

[VooDooNut]

6 minutes ago, Skipp said:

We never actually learned how Angreal and Sa'angreal are made.  So this is an interesting interpretation of it and why they are so rare. 

 

Like imagine angreal are made by a single channeler sacrificing all of their power to make one and Sa'angreal are mutliple channelers combined sacrificing their power to make them.  Kinda like something an old age channeler might decide to do to give themselves a legacy.

In the show, Moiraine doesn't mention anyone dying to make the sa'angreal, just "...put the entirety of their strength into this one small object...", but I agree it's implied it either exhausted, hurt, gentled, or killed them in the process.

[Mailman]

3 hours ago, JenniferL said:

I understand. I live in Atlanta. Snow is a terrifying thing for us. 
 

Anyways, let’s get back on topic. What did everyone think about Amalisa? She clearly trained enough to make Accepted if she knew enough to make a link. But the lack of discipline that led to her losing control of the circle is clearly why she didn’t go further. 

Amalisa scene was terrible.

Contrast it with Moiraine at the start.

Moiraine a experienced powerful Aes Sedai has trouble dealing with 50 trollocs.

Amalisa a Tower wash out coupled with 1 powerful channeler (Nyn) 1 newbie who has been channeling for a month (Egw) and 2 randoms from the city who are not Aes Sedai. And they wipe out a force of at least 10,000 trollocs.

 

Simply unbelievable.

Stupid for them to be standing outside by themselves unless they knew the level of destruction that they could perform. All for the sake of what Judkins thought would look like a cool shot of the trollocs charging 5 women alone on the battlefield.

[Elendir]

17 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Show watchers and Moiraine think he was the Dark One. Exactly as the books. And he def hoped Rand would join him, not what happened. It could be breaking the Seal also helps him, but that's not what he hoped for

 

I would be careful with what people think. The series has already revealed that there was no Tarmon Gai'don (in this season). Everyone can make a comparison with what was said before the fight (3000 years of calm). At the same time, it will be clear to the audience that some significant duel in the series would not have been portrayed in this way without effects. Especially when there is a direct comparison with other parts of the series.

 

Show watchers will probably think a lot of different things about this fight and what Moiraine thinks I wouldn't dare say either.

Edited December 25, 2021 by Elendir

[MasterAblar]

To be fair Amalisa did burn out 3, nearly 4 of the people in the circle in order to do that (yes that shouldn't be possible in the books, but that's not particularly important). This isn't all that different from what happened to queen Eldrene from Manetheren. 

 

I still think it was too much, and the Shienarans really got the short end of the stick. Agalmar dying is probably inevitable (he wouldn't have shown up again until the 8th season otherwise and there's no way the actor is gonna agree to lock himself in to the series that far in), but I really really would have prefered a Shienaran charge to deal the last blow to the Trollocs after the sacrificial play from the channellers. 

 

The fake death from Nyneave was too much to me, showing her severly hurt would have been enough. Rand not taking part isn't suprising to me, I was kinda expecting it, but the lack of a truly awing moment from him with the power is both dissapointing and strange considering you've built up the Dragon Reborn's power for a while. I'm really not convinced by the change from making Rand channel from a Sangreal instead of a pool of clean Saidin, but maybe they felt the latter was too complicated to explain with the limited time they had.