tv show spoilers S1E7: The Dark Along the Ways

[Deviations]

21 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

No, if you need an explanation that means the scene was poorly done for you.

So, so, so , so, so many people questioned this scene in their review.

 

This isn't Mulholland Drive.

[Yojimbo]

23 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

 

Moraine flat out says the Dark One is stirring, Trollocs and a Fade massacre two small towns.  A fade chases Rand and Mat, a Darkfiend tries to kill them...  The constant dreams from Ba'alzamon.  Seems to me there's plenty of presence.  Honestly, the only place we don't see Dark One presence are in Egwene/Perrin's story, and it wasn't there in the books either.

 

 

 

One of the things that(to me) they have done poorly are the dreams.  Not having Ba'alzamon speak especially.  His conversations with the boys were important in the books.   They couldn't have those same conversations in the show for various reasons, but a comment here or there from Balzy might have added to the general feeling of dread and danger.  

 

 If you are not a fan of the books I suspect you are saying "who the flaming hell is this guy and why are they dreaming about him?"     I suspect they are waiting for Ep8 for this big reveal moment.   The question is, will they do it well or will it be clumsily handled.  I guess for once I have to say WAFO, as much as I hate that phrase.   It is too often used (not just here, but in other shows) as a crutch, sometimes because, well, they (the writers) really haven't figured it out themselves. 

[KakitaOCU]

5 minutes ago, Deviations said:

So, so, so , so, so many people questioned this scene in their review.

 

This isn't Mulholland Drive.

Yes, your anecdotes and personal experience clearly dictate reality.

If your defense is "Lots of people agree" instead of an actual discussion of the point itself that's a sign.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Really?  What about the crows/ravens?  I think we are watching two different series.  My "purist' glasses are giving me one version and your "this change makes sense to me" glasses giving you another.

Touche, I'll give you that they took out the Ravens.   So that means in comparison between the books and show one Dark based attack didn't happen.  That's enough for you to say it's not present?  

[Chivalry]

9 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

I watched this episode with a close non-reader friend of mine and he said only stop if they miss something big. They did say, “ohhhh Rand’s mom is one of the assassin people.” Which I don’t know why everyone latches onto that word haha but oh well…I rewound to where the knight stands over Tigraine because they didn’t catch the hint and played it again, they still didn’t catch it, I paused it on the knight with the sword… “Is it the gleeman?” I couldn’t believe it. Haha, I think book readers A: Obviously get a lot more prior knowledge and because of this we pick up on way more, and B: We can spend most of our time specifically looking for Easter Eggs. 

LOL, that's the first time I've heard that. Maybe because of Assassin's Creed?

[JaimAybara]

14 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

LOL, that's the first time I've heard that. Maybe because of Assassin's Creed?

Haha, I have heard it a few times now. I also have had to correct ward to warder, but it’s okay it makes me feel like Loial. 

[notpropaganda73]

16 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

One of the things that(to me) they have done poorly are the dreams.  Not having Ba'alzamon speak especially.  His conversations with the boys were important in the books.   They couldn't have those same conversations in the show for various reasons, but a comment here or there from Balzy might have added to the general feeling of dread and danger.  

 

 If you are not a fan of the books I suspect you are saying "who the flaming hell is this guy and why are they dreaming about him?"     I suspect they are waiting for Ep8 for this big reveal moment.   The question is, will they do it well or will it be clumsily handled.  I guess for once I have to say WAFO, as much as I hate that phrase.   It is too often used (not just here, but in other shows) as a crutch, sometimes because, well, they (the writers) really haven't figured it out themselves. 

 

I expect my partner will not remember who he is considering how sparsely he has appeared. And if it turns out he has manipulated Siuan's dreaming to lure them to the Eye, I really don't expect that reveal to land or pack any sort of punch as they haven't really done enough to show us the importance of dreams in this world.

 

Apart from the scene with the bat in episode 2 I think it was, there's only been Perrin dreaming of the wolf with Laila and a flash of BZ, and then was it Rand dreaming? When you saw Perrin hammering at a Tinker's body and other stuff in the background. I think they really could've done with at least one more dream sequence, with BZ talking or *something* more. 

[JaimAybara]

I think visually the biggest critique I have had in season 1 is BZ himself. Man…if they learn anything at all from season 1 it is that practical effects layered with sparse CGI is the way to go. Comparing him to Narg I can’t help but ask, “what happened?”

[themann1086]

7 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

I think visually the biggest critique I have had in season 1 is BZ himself. Man…if they learn anything at all from season 1 it is that practical effects layered with sparse CGI is the way to go. Comparing him to Narg I can’t help but ask, “what happened?”

I'm wondering if that's why we haven't seen more of him in later episodes, if they cut some content because it just wasn't looking good enough and they decided they'd laid enough ground work and it'd be better to do something more visually interesting at the finale. Pure speculation of course! I'd say the lack of Ba'alzamon in the later episodes has been the thing I've been most puzzled/disappointed by, narratively (and definitely not because I kept predicting more of him and he didn't show up, who would be so petty?)

[JaimAybara]

11 minutes ago, themann1086 said:

I'm wondering if that's why we haven't seen more of him in later episodes, if they cut some content because it just wasn't looking good enough and they decided they'd laid enough ground work and it'd be better to do something more visually interesting at the finale. Pure speculation of course! I'd say the lack of Ba'alzamon in the later episodes has been the thing I've been most puzzled/disappointed by, narratively (and definitely not because I kept predicting more of him and he didn't show up, who would be so petty?)

I think this is a possibility. They may have thought they could do touch ups in editing and it just didn’t turn out how they wanted. I would have preferred a really good actor with ember eyes and mouth overlay to what we got. It looked like a bad alien costume. This is just my subjective opinion I know, but yikes. 
 

*I know some of the old artwork does actually look a bit like what they did but this is just for giggles.*

Edited December 21, 2021 by JaimAybara

[JaimAybara]

Also, I was going to quote directly but couldn’t find it, I think someone said “this isn’t a David Lynch movie”, but I’m not sure what that point is supposed to make because the dream sequences could definitely use some more David Lynch surrealism. Sign me up. 
 

found it* “This isn't Mulholland Drive”, that’s David Lynch right? 

Edited December 21, 2021 by JaimAybara
Reference

[Deviations]

18 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

If your defense is "Lots of people agree" instead of an actual discussion of the point itself that's a sign.

Maybe my memory is faulty but I think the vast majority of reviewers that mentioned that scene had a problem with it.  I don't remember any that thought is was great (on their initial review).  Many have explained it or clarified how they thought it went down but I don't remember anyone initially loving it.

 

Audience reaction to entertainment IS a measure of success.   It's certainly not the only measure but it is a valid measure.  

 

In my review, I called it a triangle because I didn't have a better description.  It seemed out of character for Nynaeve as the village wisdom to make such a mistake (and to apologize).  The biggest reason I didn't like it was because until Rand put on his 'Lord' coat in tGH, the three seemed to trust each other implicitly.  A great moment in the book was Perrin tweaking Egwene by mentioning Aram.  This scene certainly didn't feel like that.

[Deviations]

11 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

Also, I was going to quote directly but couldn’t find it, I think someone said “this isn’t a David Lynch movie”, but I’m not sure what that point is supposed to make because the dream sequences could definitely use some more David Lynch surrealism. Sign me up. 
 

found it* “This isn't Mulholland Drive”, that’s David Lynch right? 

Just that this show isn't (or shouldn't) be trying to be that deep.

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, Deviations said:

Maybe my memory is faulty but I think the vast majority of reviewers that mentioned that scene had a problem with it.  I don't remember any that thought is was great (on their initial review).  Many have explained it or clarified how they thought it went down but I don't remember anyone initially loving it.

 

Audience reaction to entertainment IS a measure of success.   It's certainly not the only measure but it is a valid measure.  

 

In my review, I called it a triangle because I didn't have a better description.  It seemed out of character for Nynaeve as the village wisdom to make such a mistake (and to apologize).  The biggest reason I didn't like it was because until Rand put on his 'Lord' coat in tGH, the three seemed to trust each other implicitly.  A great moment in the book was Perrin tweaking Egwene by mentioning Aram.  This scene certainly didn't feel like that.

Because people accentuate the negative.  And again, it's not a duo of "Loved it hated it"  there a lovely list of "Didn't care and thought it made sense but didn't focus on it."

I find it interesting that you say "Until Rand put on his "Lord" coat they all got along.  Well, Rand's putting on his "Lord" coat in this episode.  Because Rafe has said repeatedly he's telling the whole story, not EotW.  So essentially books 1-3 is one long story of the group leaving the 2R, Rand accepting himself and them coming into their own.

So Rand is pushing people away now, before the Eye instead of after.  But it tracks with his character.  Also, while I can respect your personal feeling that you didn't have a better description, I read your notes and then watched the episode expecting a fair bit more to it based on that type of review.  Personally, I'd have called it a conflict, a fight, a misunderstanding.  No part of it made me thing "OOh, love triangle."

[JaimAybara]

Yeah, give me some of that Twin Peaks surrealism in the dreams.

3 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Just that this show isn't (or shouldn't) be trying to be that deep.

I can respect that opinion but I would personally love if the show was deep in this type of visual way or at least don’t play it safe. Even if we just compare the dreams visually with David Lynch work, we see practical effects can easily surpass CGI for a mindbend sequence. 
 

*Also, I think you are right about the Perrin dig about Aram, but after he opened up about Laila we aren’t going to get it, that should have happened when they were dancing. I too thought regardless of intent they continue to drag Perrin in a

multiplicity of ways. 

[Ralph]

14 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Maybe my memory is faulty but I think the vast majority of reviewers that mentioned that scene had a problem with it.  I don't remember any that thought is was great (on their initial review).  Many have explained it or clarified how they thought it went down but I don't remember anyone initially loving it.

 

 

Does that include reviewers who had not read the books? I only saw this from book readers, because many of us are struggling to understand why they introduced this, although we had hints to it before

 

The various suggestions are to resolve this, but tbh we have to wafo. 

 

I haven't seen any reviews from non-readers criticising this scene iirc

[Deviations]

4 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Does that include reviewers who had not read the books? I only saw this from book readers, because many of us are struggling to understand why they introduced this, although we had hints to it before

 

The various suggestions are to resolve this, but tbh we have to wafo. 

 

I haven't seen any reviews from non-readers criticising this scene iirc

Candidly I'm referring to the write ups on this thread and one or two youtube videos.

 

 

[Mrs. Yojimbo]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

No, if you need an explanation that means the scene was poorly done for you.

 

I would argue that if a significant number of viewers need an explanation of the scene, the writers have failed to communicate their intent. Especially for us viewers with no previous exposure to these characters, you can't make your subtle hints so subtle that they fail to make any impression and can't be recalled later. 

[KakitaOCU]

8 minutes ago, Mrs. Yojimbo said:

 

I would argue that if a significant number of viewers need an explanation of the scene, the writers have failed to communicate their intent. Especially for us viewers with no previous exposure to these characters, you can't make your subtle hints so subtle that they fail to make any impression and can't be recalled later. 

What is the number that is "A significant number of viewers"

A quick glance lists WoT as the most watched this year for Amazon and in their top 5 period.  VS the numbers that actually spoke up or even just gave a score in RT or such.

People like us on these forums?  Heck, even people who actually go give reviews.  We're a minority.  We're not the majority, we're not even a significant overall number.  For everyone of us here making our opinions known there's another 10 or more that aren't saying a word.

[flinn]

 This is too simple...

 

Just go back and do a rewatch from Ep.1 with the thought "Perrin is hot for Egwene".

 

 awhole lot of things begin to make more sense.

[JaimAybara]

1 minute ago, flinn said:

 This is too simple...

 

Just go back and do a rewatch from Ep.1 with the thought "Perrin is hot for Egwene".

 

 awhole lot of things begin to make more sense.

Especially with the way Laila was behaving in the forge when he gave her that awkward hug. 

[Ralph]

Funny we have people complaining they have to spell things out too much for the less sensitive to subtleties, and people complaining things came out of nowhere because they didn't pick up on the subtler hints

 

?

[Gothic Flame]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

No, if you need an explanation that means the scene was poorly done for you.

If you have to fill in the blanks from the book...and non-readers have to look elsewhere for answers, then you have a "dead scene."

You caught "something" that you can translate correctly because you know the source, someone else not familiar with the source is either going to dismiss the scene, or wonder "what the hell?"

....as I said "broken recording."

[Deviations]

6 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

What is the number that is "A significant number of viewers"

A quick glance lists WoT as the most watched this year for Amazon and in their top 5 period.  VS the numbers that actually spoke up or even just gave a score in RT or such.

People like us on these forums?  Heck, even people who actually go give reviews.  We're a minority.  We're not the majority, we're not even a significant overall number.  For everyone of us here making our opinions known there's another 10 or more that aren't saying a word.

Are you familiar with the concept of sampling a population?

 

And before you ask, I don't have actual statistics.  On this particular topic, I don't think they are readily available.  However, the folks on this forum have at least demonstrated an investment in the material (book and TV).  For a recognizably large portion of THIS audience to have trouble with the scene should be concerning to those who created the scene.  There was a misfire somewhere. 

[Gothic Flame]

9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

A quick glance lists WoT as the most watched this year for Amazon and in their top 5 period.

Meaningless when you see "Shannara Chronicles" as a top watched show when it wss running.

[Deviations]

I was going to post in the ep6 thread how much I hate this expression on this actress.

 

 

Then I realized it was probably a good copy of my face when I'm watching the show.  Fair is fair.