tv show spoilers S1E7: The Dark Along the Ways

[Arie]

3 minutes ago, divica said:

I chalange you to find a situation where the reverse happens.

Let's avoid things like this, as it can be antagonistic. Thank you.

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, divica said:

And these are just 2 examples how the show ignored male devolpment in order to be able to spend more time developing female characters. I chalange you to find a situation where the reverse happens.

Why am I supposed to care about this?

[divica]

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Good thing that’s not what’s happening then. 

I am sorry but it is.

Or do you think any show only watcher cares more about rand, perin or mat that moiraine, nym or egwene?

 

Or that anyone thought that any of the men could be the dragon reborn?

[Windigo]

On 12/16/2021 at 10:46 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

Was it excessive that a woman in labour killed 5-6 men. sure. Looked good, tho.

 

I loved this scene, and having been through labor several times, I can say that there is quite a bit of adrenalin and determination that could make it possible. 

[divica]

2 minutes ago, Arie said:

Let's avoid things like this, as it can be antagonistic. Thank you.

That wasn't the intention. I just really just wanted to know if there was a scene where the reverse happens.

[Arie]

Phrasing is important, as well as perspective. ? Internet is funny that way when it comes to tone.

[divica]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Why am I supposed to care about this?

Because one of the criticisms that is often discussed here is how men are portrayed and less developed in the show in regards to women?

Because it is an example hy rand, mat and perrin are side characters in the show compared to some of the female characters?

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, divica said:

I am sorry but it is.

Or do you think any show only watcher cares more about rand, perin or mat that moiraine, nym or egwene?

 

Or that anyone thought that any of the men could be the dragon reborn?

This is a story. Thing will not remain static. There is still plenty of time for the men to shine. 

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, FanofKnotai said:

In the books they don’t CONTROL ALL. Yes they have a huge influence because as stated most (not all) rulers have AS advisors. But having an advisors not the same as being controlled or having no power. The fact that Niall would come (Lan didn’t mention kneeling at all) doesn’t mean he has no power he just recognizes the Amyrlin’s power as well as she would his own. Also in the TR the men handled “men’s business” and women handled “womens business”. Never did it imply that the women were more powerful than the men. It only states that they were discussing who were gonna come after the EF4 when Nyn decided to go behind their backs and come on her own. If they were “more powerful” it would have been out in the open like the changes have been in the show. And I think you can portray the huge influence of the AS without diminishing the influence/personalities of the all men. 

In Book 4 or 5, the Women's council of Edmond's Field makes a decision that if uncovered would have resulted in the men of the Two Rivers being massacred by The Whitecloaks, without consulting with them. Because it was "Women's Business".  And they hid the reality of the food situation from them as well. They took away the men's right to decide for themselves. That's power.

 

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, divica said:

Because one of the criticisms that is often discussed here is how men are portrayed and less developed in the show in regards to women?

Because it is an example hy rand, mat and perrin are side characters in the show compared to some of the female characters?

Okay. But is that bad? Is it somehow horrible that they have chosen to focus some of the female characters first?

[themann1086]

6 minutes ago, Windigo said:

 

I loved this scene, and having been through labor several times, I can say that there is quite a bit of adrenalin and determination that could make it possible. 

My wife told me on our rewatch that it might be best to keep spears away from her or for me to stay well out of stabbing range during labor, all while smiling sweetly. If she would have understood the reference I absolutely would have gotten her a knife for our wedding last week haha

[divica]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

Okay. But is that bad? Is it somehow horrible that they have chosen to focus some of the female characters first?

I am sorry but I have never seen a show that works as you are implying.

Usually the main characters of the first season remain as main characters during the series unless they are killed. And this happens because the people watch the show because they want to see stories about the main characters.

 

It would be very strange to change the main focus of the story from moiraine, egwene and nym to give at least an equal focus to rand, perrin and mat. 

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, divica said:

I am sorry but I have never seen a show that works as you are implying.

Usually the main characters of the first season remain as main characters during the series unless they are killed. And this happens because the people watch the show because they want to see stories about the main characters.

 

It would be very strange to change the main focus of the story from moiraine, egwene and nym to give at least an equal focus to rand, perrin and mat. 

Well, you’re wrong about the “main focus” being on those 3. This is clearly a show about all of the characters that left the Two Rivers. We have spent a similar amount of time will all 7 of them. 
 

Moreover, we know where the story goes from here. They may make changes, but they’re not doing a wholesale rewrite. 
 

 

[Gothic Flame]

4 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

From the choices they're making, I can already tell that if men and women being more equally important to, and represented in, the TV Series that they are in the books, resulting in the increase in prominence of the women, and a decrease in that of the men bothers you greatly, I doubt you will enjoy the series.

Pfft... I already quit after the 3rd episode. Reading this forum is about as close as I care to get to Rafe's Reinvention of the Wheel.

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, FanofKnotai said:

1st how do you have any clue as to what their intentions are? If what you’re saying is true than the only reason they are doing is to say “nah nah how do you like it being done to you”….that’s silly and makes ruining the story even worse. 2nd I totally agree that superhero/comic stories in general are  biased and when a female lead comes along that’s kicking the guys butts, I cheer. LOUDLY. But, 3rd, that is in NO WAY the same as taking a story that was already balanced in its original format and unbalancing it only so you can use it for a childish tit for tat. (If your theory is indeed correct)

1st - The changes that are being made to the supporting male characters are too consistent to be unintentional. So there's a reason.  And I never said they were doing it just to be spiteful, I never even implied it.  I give the creative team enough credit that they are not doing it for such a stupid reason. So how about this - by rubbing the audiences nose in the fact that it's unfair to treat men like that, it can help convince the audience that it's not okay to treat women (or any other "protected" category) as anything but equals, and as long as one group is "more equal than others", society as a whole is weaker.

 

2nd - I will take you at your word that you cheer loudly. But I invite you to go back to the casting discussions, or the male warders discussion, or the S&M discussion to see that your position is far from universal

 

3rd - the whole point is that it wasn't balanced. Even when women were the most powerful people in the world, our main characters needed to learn that women aren't delicate flowers to be protected from the world, but partners who have an equal share in changing it.

Spoiler

It takes Rand about 13,750 pages to accept that Egwene is "entitled" to make her own decisions with her own life. I'm not convinced that in the 12,000 or so pages Perrin with Faile, he learns that she isn't a delicate flower he needs to protect.  And Mat? his relationship with women is fairly problematic.

 

Not at you directly, @FanofKnotai but this whole topic is clarifying for me that we definitely get Mat / Tylin, and even Elayne's reaction to it. The show is going to rub our noses in this

[divica]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Well, you’re wrong about the “main focus” being on those 3. This is clearly a show about all of the characters that left the Two Rivers. We have spent a similar amount of time will all 7 of them. 
 

Moreover, we know where the story goes from here. They may make changes, but they’re not doing a wholesale rewrite. 
 

 

What would you call the arc between perrin, eg and the whitecloaks? that was a complete rewrite.

 

what about rand and mat's travel together? or their time in camylin? OR the whole moiraine scenes after she is cured?

 

The whole show is a rewrite of the books with a few scenes conecting them. Given what they did with season 1 I don't think you can use the books as proof of what they might or not do.

And I would also risk that this is the book with less female focus and turned into a season mostly focused on women...

 

And how can you imply that mat, perrin or rand received the same focus as moiraine, eg or nym? Of the 3 boys the one that received more focus was clearly rand and even he comes acroos as the bland moopy boyfriend while the females had story arcs where they did things, had their background story exposed, evolved shoed they were special.

[Jaysen Gore]

36 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

I think it is probably more along the lines of a perfect storm of unintended consequences. They are overcorrecting for women right now and that paired with the truly abysmal additions to the men’s story arcs, it is not a good look. It is making me raise my eyebrows at this point to be honest. The fact is none of the negative additions have been given to the women leads. If anything, changes they are given are cool factor/beneficial. All the negatives have been given to the men. This may not be done out of malevolence towards men, but the overprotection of female characters as if they are fragile and needed to be handled with care, leads to the only negative changes that are present are being given to men, because they are the only ones they are “allowed” to be made to look bad, because heaven forbid female leads have legitimate character flaws. This being said, there are a lot of bad changes, so this is why I think some have been questioning the intent of the showrunners. Although you are right, many are taking it a bit far. I don’t think it is intentional, but I can see where people might be coming from. 

The changes are too consistent to be unintended, IMO. This isn't the Temple of Doom ending up as dark as it was by accident. See my recent posts as to why I think they're doing what they're doing.

 

And I profoundly disagree that they are doing this to protect the female characters.  You are assigning to the showrunners in real life the very thing that the male protagonists were guilty of doing for 14,000 pages.  Which would take a level of self unawareness so massive that I don't even believe a Hollywood Exec has it.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, divica said:

And how can you imply that mat, perrin or rand received the same focus as moiraine, eg or nym?

Because they had nearly equal screen time? 
 

 

1 minute ago, divica said:

What would you call the arc between perrin, eg and the whitecloaks? that was a complete rewrite.

This is still going to be the story of the EF5. Rand is still the Dragon. Egwene will be the Amyrlin. The main beats for all the characters will be the same as they were in the books. 
 

You are grasping at straws here. 

[MasterAblar]

We’ve gone from a book 1 that was 90% focused on Rand to a show that has a very heavy focus on Moiraine instead. It’s pretty natural that the character development is gonna shift.

 

Rand’s development is what has suffered the most and that’s the unfortunate consequence of the DR mystery. It’s not a man/woman thing. 
 

Egwene has barely had anything to do, just like in the book so I don’t know why people think she’s had the spotlight. She shared it with Perrin for a slice of an episode and that’s about it.

[expat]

Quote

But, 3rd, that is in NO WAY the same as taking a story that was already balanced in its original format and unbalancing it only so you can use it for a childish tit for tat. (If your theory is indeed correct)

In your opinion.  Please don't state it as fact since it is at best just one possible reading.

 

I thought it was obvious from the books that the EF Women's Council was more powerful than the Village Council and that the women were allowing the men to think that they were equal in order to keep the peace. 

 

Women did control world.  The four major cultures that we were shown all had permanent women leaders (Sea Folks, Seanchan, Aiel Wise Ones, and the White Tower).  While the militaries were mostly men, most of the other secondary power positions in Randland were split between men and women fairly randomly.  Andor had a queen, Tear had both women and men as High Lords, Tarabon had both a King and Panarch, most (all?) of the other kingdoms could have either a King or Queen.

 

I just don't see this as balanced as you state. 

[JaimAybara]

14 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

The changes are too consistent to be unintended, IMO. This isn't the Temple of Doom ending up as dark as it was by accident. See my recent posts as to why I think they're doing what they're doing.

 

And I profoundly disagree that they are doing this to protect the female characters.  You are assigning to the showrunners in real life the very thing that the male protagonists were guilty of doing for 14,000 pages.  Which would take a level of self unawareness so massive that I don't even believe a Hollywood Exec has it.

I do think they approach male and female leads very differently but you could be right. This is why I still watch. I’ll wait and see and am happy to do so. We can disagree there. And what I meant regarding the female roles is they are way more apprehensive to give them flaws/they are more Likely to have super-super powers. Not that they are turning them into damsels or anything on screen. Quite to the contrary. 
 

Also, I actually liked how the Maidens specifically shamed Rand for treating women as damsels. So yes you are right it was there, but also addressed quite well in world. I Definitely hope we get that subplot in the future. As for people being protected and saved the men and women alike save each other a bunch. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by JaimAybara
Spelling

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Because they had nearly equal screen time? 
 

 

This is still going to be the story of the EF5. Rand is still the Dragon. Egwene will be the Amyrlin. The main beats for all the characters will be the same as they were in the books. 
 

You are grasping at straws here. 

Will they be the same? Perrin's main beats in this book/season were the same? 

Did we have him discovering he could connect to wolves? concisously killing people? trying to deal with the whitecloaks himself instead of egwene? deciding to kill her to save her from a worse death? accepting that he had magical powers?

 

All of perrin's main beats were ignored in order to make eg better. 

 

This season proves that what you are hoping for just isn't true. 

 

And the boys can have had simillar screen times but they certainly talked much less and what they did as secondary or less interesting to their female counterparts.

 

[Windigo]

On 12/17/2021 at 6:36 AM, Seaine's eyebrows said:

Shaiel was a trained and experienced soldier too ?

 

She was also STRONG, strong in every sense of the word. She was strong enough to survive the Waste and strong enough to become a Maiden. Strong enough to leave her beloved son, family, people, and future throne behind on the Fortelling of an Aes Sedai. She was a fighter, she was Far Dareis Mai.

 

And the body is capable of anything if the mind wants it enough, whether you're in labour, or fighting for your life, or both if you're unlucky enough. It's possible to fight against the deepest instinct to push out your baby (I've had to do that myself, so I know this), and on either side of your contractions, I personally was fine. So I have no problem with their portrayal of her pwning those Companions while fighting the urge to push out her child, because she is a bloody Aiel doing what has to be done. She kicked their asses, as I would expect any Aiel to do, whether stabbed and in full labour, or otherwise. I thought it was really well done, it showed just how hard the Aiel are, and I loved watching her ❤️?

 

I loved this whole episode actually. Can't wait for next week!!

I agree, with this 100%. 
It was a great scene, I think the only overdone part was the flip thing, but that would have been over done pregnant or not. 
 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, divica said:

Did we have him discovering he could connect to wolves?

Yes. 
 

 

1 minute ago, divica said:

concisously killing people?

Not yet. But why must it happen now as opposed to later?

 

2 minutes ago, divica said:

trying to deal with the whitecloaks himself instead of egwene? deciding to kill her to save her from a worse death?

No. But why was this important? And is it more important than establishing the foundation for his relationship with Faile?

 

3 minutes ago, divica said:

accepting that he had magical powers?

He didn’t accept that in book 1. 

 

3 minutes ago, divica said:

This season proves that what you are hoping for just isn't true.

No. It really doesn’t. 

[expat]

I am awaiting the thread for people who started to read the books after watching the series.  Their takes on the books will be interesting.  I suspect that they will pick apart a lot of things that the current book readers took for granted as just the way the world works since they will be seeing it through the lens of the series.  Lots of repetitive, unnecessarily drawn out plot arcs, badly written characters etc.