tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

Good onscreen male parental figures: Tam, Thom, Siuan's dad

I think the argument is that Siuan's dad is a baddy for letting his kid go to TV all by herself.

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think the argument is that Siuan's dad is a baddy for letting his kid go to TV all by herself.

True, the almighty "We don't have enough evidence so I'm picking the solution that supports my preconceived notion instead of acknowledging a gap in our knowledge."

[Therese Sedai]

This episode was strong. I enjoyed the change of pace and the dynamic between Siuan and Moiraine although I’m biased as I’ve shipped them for about 17 years now. 
 

Making Maigan first selector was a smart move for streamlining the characters. 

 

The problems I have with the episode are mostly minor. 
 

The introduction of Loial without context was confusing. My wife has never read the books and we had to pause it so I could explain. Hopefully we get a full reveal of his connection with the Ways in the next episode.

 

Like many others I dislike the decision to make the Waygates activated by using the power. Although this is not important in the grand scheme of things. Just a small complaint.
 

Lastly, assuming that Rand will still be DR, I think it’s time they give him more screen time. We’re approaching the Eye and things need to move quickly in the next two episodes. I don’t know if that’s enough time for a viewer to grow attached or invested in his quest. 
 

NB. “On your knees” will never not live in my head rent free. 

 

 

[gibbons]

41 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Rand stands out as the only Red Headed Blue eyed person in Emond's Field.  Also, all Jordan ever said was Dark Hair and Eyes.  Never anything about skin tone.  This was talked to death on Tor.Com when the casting first came out.

Again, Manetheren (And AoL before it) were diverse ethnically.  2000 years is 60-100 generations.  That is not enough time to forcibly breed out recessive traits.
 

 

First time posting here after lurking for quite a while, I know it tends to be a sensitive topic since it skirts a bit close to race etc but just have chime in before I crawl back into the woodwork.

I've seen the point being made quite often here and elsewhere that the two rivers folk are only described as Dark haired and dark eyes, which isn't wrong... however, on the other hand we also see from Perrin's perspective that newly arrived refugees from the west (Domani in particular if I recall right) are noticeably darker than two river's folk, who are 'sun dark' whatever you want to interpret that as.

Personally, I don't mind how 'diverse' the depiction of the world in general is in the show, though I do feel that it will end up unintentionally downplaying some of the themes that appear later on when dragonsworn end up working together from various cultures and backgrounds. Maybe they can work around it with costuming, we will have to see.



More on topic: Egwene's reaction after thinking she was the most powerful channeler for a second was priceless. 100% matches up with book Egwene.
I'm also sort of hoping that we will later find out that Saidar was needed to open the waygate because the talisman was missing, Loial does mention in the books that removing the talisman would mean an Aes sedai would be required to open it again, so that would be an easy enough save for thee show writers to not have broken the lore here. 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by gibbons
typo, Fark haired >.>

[fra85uk]

Just now, KakitaOCU said:

Good onscreen male parental figures: Tam, Thom, Siuan's dad
Perfectly normal onscreen male parental figures: Bran

Bad onscreen male parental figures: Abell Cauthon (Still not happy about that)
Bad offscreen male parental figures: Stepin and Ihvon's fathers.

That's 3 or 4 to 1 or 3.  The existing sample size doesn't even support the stance.

 

At least we should Have a intellectually honest conversation, but if you list Thom and Siuan's father in good parental figures just because they do not try to actively womanize or kill their children...

 

Ofc you argue About samples but on the sample the bad ones 2 of them were purposefully introduced and 1 was s butchered characters...some clues, i guess 

[ManetherenTaveren]

4 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Ehm yes a narrative that does not exists :D

Given that list, I will dare to say that Rafe is a red-ajah wanna bee. He did mention a while back that he read the WoT books with his mother. AFAIK,he has never mentioned a strong father figure in his discussions. Hmmmm.... 

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, Therese Sedai said:

Lastly, assuming that Rand will still be DR, I think it’s time they give him more screen time. We’re approaching the Eye and things need to move quickly in the next two episodes. I don’t know if that’s enough time for a viewer to grow attached or invested in his quest. 

 

I'm curious on this, because it's a common take.  But I feel Rand's gotten solid screentime and development.

He gets more screentime with Tam than Perrin does with Laila or Mat with his sisters.   
He stands up to the Trolloc and doesn't panic.
Shows backbone and stands up to Moraine for better or worse.
Genuinely tries to befriend Dana and we see the start of his issue with women.
Talks down the imminent violence with the Grinwells
Protects Mat and tries to draw on Moraine of all things.   
Shows rational thought and coolness under pressure in that once he sees Moraine is trying to help he's fully on board and accepts his mistake.

I think we have a very solid foundation here.

[fra85uk]

8 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

You can't use non-information to assume negative.  Or rather, it can mean both.  You claim non-mention equals bad dad for Perrin and Nynaeve, I can say it shows good.  My argument is even MORE likely because statistically people complain more about bad experiences than they talk up good ones.

 

Non-information means negative because in the books both Perrin and Nynaeve had good fatherly figures but they magically disappear in the show.

 

[KakitaOCU]

4 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

 

At least we should Have a intellectually honest conversation, but if you list Thom and Siuan's father in good parental figures just because they do not try to actively womanize or kill their children...

 

Ofc you argue About samples but on the sample the bad ones 2 of them were purposefully introduced and 1 was s butchered characters...some clues, i guess 

I didn't list Siuan's father and Thom for not being womanizers who kill children.

I list Siuan's father because he clearly cares for her, protects her while accepting she is what she is, and once it's clear she's in mortal danger takes efforts to ensure her safety even if it dooms him.

Thom we see the level of love and care he had for Owein and as a result how he takes to Mat and Rand and wants to help them up to and including risking his life to keep them safe and let them escape.

As for your second point, I agree with Abell, but he was changed to assist Mat's progress, not to make him an issue.  As for the other 2, it's showing that often Gaiden come from broken places and their lives turn around after a sister finds them.  That's not a bad vein or a sign of parenting as a whole.

[TheDreadReader]

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think the argument is that Siuan's dad is a baddy for letting his kid go to TV all by herself.

 

To me that was supposed to be a self-contained story as a prologue. 

 

(story start)

1. Poor fisherman with a daughter and a missing hand (accident or taken for thievery?)

2. Siuan has the power.  Uses it. Gets caught.

3. Siuan leaves for to Tower.

(story over)

 

No reason to overthink the method, means, or process of her leaving because the important takeaway is just that she was going to the tower.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

 

Non-information means negative because in the books both Perrin and Nynaeve had good fatherly figures but they magically disappear in the show.

 

In the book both Perrin and Nynaeve have neutral fathers who were not bad.  All we know about Nynaeve's is that he taught he tracking.

All we know about Perrin's is...  He existed.

Again, us not seeing them standing and shouting praises is not a sign of bad, it's a lack of information.

[phoenixtrinity]

1 hour ago, dorotea said:

 

This is an extraordinary urban American take, and I say extraordinary because being Russian implant in US for a very long time I can spot these kind of things and appreciate your PoV while at the same time laugh my head off.  Lets just say that I listened to a few Eastern European reviews of the show (Russian, Polish, Check youtubers) and all of them are very sarcastic of the shows take on the diversity, saying as much as 'this is how a San-Fransisco-an would imagine a rural settlement in the middle of nowhere mountains'. See, in real life, as in real life out there outside the developed world's urban areas there are generally no diversity the way you imagine it. Zero, zilch, nil diversity is a norm for rural areas because these folks have no financial means to travel or to mix until they go full scale immigration, but that's another story.

With all due respect, I study culture and world history and am very aware of how diveristy looks depending on context. This is not just a "San Fransisco" view. This is akin to saying ancient China was comprised of just "Chinese" instead of hundreds of ethnic groups who very much consider themselves both physically and culturally diverse.

 

Take a look at the Wheel of Time world and the descriptions of their cultures. Each place might have more of one ethnicity than another, but I would be shocked if we only saw Tearans in Tear, etc. The only diverse part of the show that has felt off to me is Two Rivers, and that's because it was explicitly said they are a small town whose people are descended from Manetheren, and few people travel there. But Tar Valon? The White Tower? Yes, I'm going to expect to see many different kinds of folks.

 

Edit:

Quote

Again, Manetheren (And AoL before it) were diverse ethnically.  2000 years is 60-100 generations.  That is not enough time to forcibly breed out recessive traits.

After reading this quote, I realize I was mistakenly thinking Manetheren was described as a monolithe in the books. So, I can see how Two Rivers could be diverse, and I still stick to what I said about Randland as a whole.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by phoenixtrinity
Reflection

[Wraith235]

11 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Did we watch the same scene?

Moraine says every area has it's own version of what the Dragon should be.  Mentions one gleeman singing about a multi headed dragon.

Siuan says "The dragon as more than one person?"  Essentially blows it off as stupid, then asked which individual it is.  

Moraine says she doesn't know yet.  She was sure it can't be Nynaeve but her power makes her question.

They discuss the eye and when Moraine says she's going Siuan says it's death for the ones who aren't the Dragon.

Nothing in this scene suggests the Dragon is more than one person.

oh ya we did .... they have repeatedly doubled down time and time again on this type of thing from that when you look at the direction of the show  there is only 1 real direction they can go. Also with as much effort as they have put into it at this point the moment Eg is NOT the DR you have all that time wasted and you infuriate a certain segment of new watchers as well as enrage the twitterverse....

hell Even Suiane's 1st reaction "the girl ?" .... EVERY episode has had 1 or more references to Eg being the DR hows it going to look if they walk all that back 

[fra85uk]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

In the book both Perrin and Nynaeve have neutral fathers who were not bad.  All we know about Nynaeve's is that he taught he tracking.

All we know about Perrin's is...  He existed.

Again, us not seeing them standing and shouting praises is not a sign of bad, it's a lack of information.

 

Well, Perrin had Master Luhan which got transformed in the fridge wife ?

Honestly, I don't want to convince you, I stay with my opinion: almost whenever they changed or introduced fatherly figures, they did it for the worse and when they couldn't they ignored them or downplayed them.

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, Wraith235 said:

oh ya we did .... they have repeatedly doubled down time and time again on this type of thing from that when you look at the direction of the show  there is only 1 real direction they can go. Also with as much effort as they have put into it at this point the moment Eg is NOT the DR you have all that time wasted and you infuriate a certain segment of new watchers as well as enrage the twitterverse....

hell Even Suiane's 1st reaction "the girl ?" .... EVERY episode has had 1 or more references to Eg being the DR hows it going to look if they walk all that back 

No, see, a mystery with an answer means that there's wrong answers.  It's not time wasted, it's time investing in the character.

Siuan said "the girl?"  referencing Nynaeve.

Look, if they do that dramatic a change I'll eat crow, but I see no reason to change who the DR actually is and have seen no real evidence that it'll change.

[Therese Sedai]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

I'm curious on this, because it's a common take.  But I feel Rand's gotten solid screentime and development.

He gets more screentime with Tam than Perrin does with Laila or Mat with his sisters.   
He stands up to the Trolloc and doesn't panic.
Shows backbone and stands up to Moraine for better or worse.
Genuinely tries to befriend Dana and we see the start of his issue with women.
Talks down the imminent violence with the Grinwells
Protects Mat and tries to draw on Moraine of all things.   
Shows rational thought and coolness under pressure in that once he sees Moraine is trying to help he's fully on board and accepts his mistake.

I think we have a very solid foundation here.

I think as a reader I know his importance and of course feel highly invested in his quest, which results in wanting to see more of him. Perhaps even disproportionately more compared to the others. 
 

I’ve even surprised myself a little because I didn’t care for Rand in the books. 

You’re totally right though. His character development is there but I’m just not currently convinced that the audience has been made to care about him just yet. 

[gibbons]

I feel like people are overthinking the Siuan's father thing, but it's probably worth noting that (i'm 90% sure) Tear helps to send girls that can channel go to the White Tower, and the dragons fang clearly shows that people are aware that she can channel so you would figure whoever is in charge of getting the girls sent off would be made aware.

Edited December 10, 2021 by gibbons

[Therese Sedai]

Did we get an explanation of the significance of Siuan’s tattoos? I haven’t had time to rewatch the episode and wonder if perhaps I missed it? 

[dwn]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

I don't think it's necessarily a problem that Moraine didn't know Nynaeve could channel.  It's something women can sense but it's also something that can be overlooked.  In the books Moraine is not injured after Shadar Logoth and when Nynaeve creeps up on them Moraine doesn't notice for a while before suddenly realizing.  

Combine that with her dismissing Nynaeve for her age right away and maybe she just never bothered to check.  Kind of like hearing a noise outside but being so sure it's just the dog that you don't look out the window.

 

 

I interpreted it as Moiraine shading the truth. She knew Nynaeve was a wilder and could touch saidar occasionally, but not that she could channel consciously or with great effect. I'd have preferred her to use the term 'wilder', but, like a lot of the concepts around channelling, it's likely just too complex to show on screen.

[Wraith235]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

No, see, a mystery with an answer means that there's wrong answers.  It's not time wasted, it's time investing in the character.

Siuan said "the girl?"  referencing Nynaeve.

Look, if they do that dramatic a change I'll eat crow, but I see no reason to change who the DR actually is and have seen no real evidence that it'll change.

you believe its referencing Nyneave and while sure thats a logical conclusion - they also state shes too old 

I mean for gods sake do they even read the prophecys ?
Born of Ancient Blood Raised by the Old Blood - there are only 2 POTENTIAL Solutions to that equation, Rand and Nyneave and Nyn is too old ... however your already throwing out the Amount of He/Him References in the prophecys so why not throw that out too 

 

[Skipp]

16 minutes ago, Therese Sedai said:

 

Like many others I dislike the decision to make the Waygates activated by using the power. Although this is not important in the grand scheme of things. Just a small complaint.
 

 

 

 

 

Agreed, the Waygate isn't sitting quite right with me at the moment.  Maybe their will be a better explanation down the road but I was hoping for more since I saw I first saw this concept.

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, fra85uk said:

 

Well, Perrin had Master Luhan which got transformed in the fridge wife ?

Honestly, I don't want to convince you, I stay with my opinion: almost whenever they changed or introduced fatherly figures, they did it for the worse and when they couldn't they ignored them or downplayed them.

And yet you carefully ignore the inverse.

Good onscreen mothers: Marin, Ila

Bad onscreen mothers: Natti

And by your logic of "No news is bad news": Perrin's mother, Nynaeve's mother...

[TheDreadReader]

Just now, Wraith235 said:

I mean for gods sake do they even read the prophecys ?
 

 

They specifically address that in the show.  Yes, they've read them.  They've read all the varying takes on them.  They've heard the gleemen's tales.

 

 

[fra85uk]

Bad Natti is a bad on-screen mother as a consequence of Abel being a womanizer and she predict that his son is going to become as his father ?

 

I am not doing a count, I am just looking at how changes seem to be unidirectional...

[Therese Sedai]

2 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

Agreed, the Waygate isn't sitting quite right with me at the moment.  Maybe their will be a better explanation down the road but I was hoping for more since I saw I first saw this concept.

After I wrote this I read a post about Loial suggesting that in the absence of the leaf, they would need an aes sedai. So that’s a decent explanation and leaves the Ways I open for future use by non-channellers.