Lan reveal

DojoToad · April 29, 2021

YAWN! Another 2 seconds of...

These little blips might be more exciting if we knew when the show was coming. Just give us a date - whether it be August 2021 or March 2022 or whatever. The rest of it doesn't matter until then (well, for me anyway). The date will get me going no matter how soon or late it is - I'll put it on my calendar, take a day off work, and stock the liquor cabinet... These mini teasers just frustrate me.

Thrasymachus · April 29, 2021

There's just not much to say about it. It sort of looks like an awkward little hop and slash, but there's so little of it it's hard to tell if it really is an awkward, weird little move or if it's part of some larger sequence that would make it not look quite so much like Mr. Henney stepped on a lego piece while swinging his sword. And because everybody here already knew Daniel Henney would be playing Lan, it's not revelatory, so there's not much to say about it. That said, I wouldn't complain about a similar treatment for all the main cast.

But so much for an accelerated marketing push. It was six weeks from the Moiraine snippet. If they do do a similar treatment for the rest of the main cast and they keep this pace, one could go from conceiving a baby to officially naming it before they're done. Although, on the bright side (depending on your point of view), the reporting I've seen that has the actors back in Prague to complete season one filming also says that they'll be moving right into season two filming, which pretty much confirms a season two. Of course, that also still implies a fall season one release at the earliest.

Shadow and Bone on Netflix has been a pretty good watch so far, if you're looking for a fantasy book-to-tv adaptation fix. You get kinda thrown into the deep end of a history and lore that the show makes you have to figure out (or look up) if you're not familiar with the book series. Being unfamiliar with said series, I don't know how faithful it is. But it seems like a good enough way to deal with a story where a complex lore and history are relevant, without bogging everything down with exposition. The acting and writing aren't terrible and the special effects are pretty good too. But I don't think it's gonna become some cult hit like The Umbrella Academy or the Witcher. I do see it as sort of blazing a trail that the Wheel of Time will soon follow.

April 29, 2021

Daniel's acting abilities I am confident are fine, and being asian and athletic can tie into the Borderlanders region he hails from. All that I can buy, even though that may not have been my choice when I read the series.

What I don't buy, at least not from what I've seen and heard, and esp. after this "teaser" is that he can actually carry Lan as the type of physical force character he is. Picture a body build more like Henry Cavaziel (put long DARK hair on The Witcher character, for example). That is how big and present Lan is supposed to be.

Where is the long hair tied back with the Hadori? He can have a top-knot to hold his hair up and back at times, but it still should be long hair.

My first impression: they made it 2 seconds long to hide that the above is missing. His body style reminds me more of a slender Samurai in a loose kimono-style robe than a husky, beefy, effortlessly armored, gravely-voiced al'Lan Mandragoran.

SinisterDeath · April 29, 2021

1 hour ago, redgiant said:

What I don't buy, at least not from what I've seen and heard, and esp. after this "teaser" is that he can actually carry Lan as the type of physical force character he is. Picture a body build more like Henry Cavaziel (put long DARK hair on The Witcher character, for example). That is how big and present Lan is supposed to be.

Mind quoting text from the books that describes Lan as a Beefy Henry Cavill?

From the books, Rand is supposed to be 6'-6", and Lan is 6'-5".
Both actors playing Rand/Lan are 6'-2".
I've always pictured both Rand & Lan having similar swordsman body builds, where as Perrin is the "thick" guy of the bunch.

Henry in Witcher was heavily criticized for looking way to thick.

To reiterate, Daniel isn't a "small" scrawny guy. (He's actually taller then Henry Cavill!)
The picture below is from a few years ago, so who knows how much muscle he might have packed on for this role.

Thrasymachus · April 29, 2021

To be fair, the clip did give an impression of a more lithe, shorter fighter than some might expect for Lan. To be fair in the other direction, the two seconds of a clip we got is not enough to make any real judgements as to Lan's overall aesthetic in the show.

DojoToad · April 30, 2021

I think Daniel will be great as Lan. My complaint is not seeing anything...

king of nowhere · April 30, 2021

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

I think Daniel will be great as Lan. My complaint is not seeing anything...

i second that.

i check this page daily to see if there are any news or solid facts. so far, all i have is the assurance that they already invested enough money in it that they're not going to pull the plug

Elder_Haman · April 30, 2021

On 4/29/2021 at 5:14 AM, DojoToad said:

YAWN! Another 2 seconds of...

These little blips might be more exciting if we knew when the show was coming. Just give us a date - whether it be August 2021 or March 2022 or whatever. The rest of it doesn't matter until then (well, for me anyway). The date will get me going no matter how soon or late it is - I'll put it on my calendar, take a day off work, and stock the liquor cabinet... These mini teasers just frustrate me.

I think that info is coming soon. Maybe as early as next week. Almost certainly before the end of May.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Elder_Haman

Elder_Haman · April 30, 2021

On 4/29/2021 at 7:56 AM, Thrasymachus said:

But so much for an accelerated marketing push. It was six weeks from the Moiraine snippet. If they do do a similar treatment for the rest of the main cast and they keep this pace, one could go from conceiving a baby to officially naming it before they're done.

I think you've missed a key ingredient. These last two snippets were released from the actor's own IG page. While this may seem unimportant, it's worth noting that Rosamund Pike and Daniel Henney have far more followers/subscribers than the official Wheel of Time Twitter account (Henney is extremely popular in Korea).

These 'mini-teasers' of actors with large followings serve to widen the net of people who will be interested in the show. I would expect only one more teaser - featuring Alvaro Morte (who is extremely popular in Spain) - before the trailer releases.

The pace is accelerating - just in subtle ways.

Carebear Sedai · April 30, 2021

As excited as I am for the show, these clips do more harm than good. I don't understand the logic behind giving us our first peek at Lan through a clip that's cut in a way that his sword moves look wimpy and plain bad. I didn't bother sharing the clip on my social media for fear of my friends, who aren't book fans but will likely watch the show, might see it and get a bad first impression of Lan.

Moiraine's promo wasn't any better. The up close look accentuated the imperfections in her wig and with nothing to distract that was essentially the only take away.

I would prefer if they show us behind the scene content if they don't care about making the characters look cool in action a proper 10-15 second clip. Whatever the controversy around DCEU, they constantly release these mini teases long before it's time for a trailer, but they take test footage cut them into these breathtaking clips that are actually exciting to share on social media. The first look at JP's Joker or Pattison's Batman still give me goosebumps, remembering them. Our first official peek at Lan and Moiraine should've been so much better than this.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Carebear Sedai

Carebear Sedai · April 30, 2021

On 4/29/2021 at 10:56 AM, Thrasymachus said:

But so much for an accelerated marketing push. It was six weeks from the Moiraine snippet. If they do do a similar treatment for the rest of the main cast and they keep this pace, one could go from conceiving a baby to officially naming it before they're done. Although, on the bright side (depending on your point of view), the reporting I've seen that has the actors back in Prague to complete season one filming also says that they'll be moving right into season two filming, which pretty much confirms a season two. Of course, that also still implies a fall season one release at the earliest.

There was a leak about the show coming out in early November, though it's not certain how reliable they are. My hope was that the marketing would be speeding up more, for a late summer release. But looking at their slow crawl of marketing, a November release makes a lot more sense. I hope Amazon knows what it's doing, because late 2021 is gonna be jam-packed with big franchise releases and about the worst time to premier the show. I would almost hope they wait until the winter and release in early 2022 instead.

Elder_Haman · April 30, 2021

27 minutes ago, Carebear Sedai said:

a clip that's cut in a way that his sword moves look wimpy and plain bad. I didn't bother sharing the clip on my social media for fear of my friends, who aren't book fans but will likely watch the show, might see it and get a bad first impression of Lan.

I don't understand this criticism at all. There were no "sword moves". There was a glimpse of a single move. How do you get "wimpy and plain bad" from that?

Carebear Sedai · April 30, 2021

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don't understand this criticism at all. There were no "sword moves". There was a glimpse of a single move. How do you get "wimpy and plain bad" from that?

I phrased it badly. What I'm saying is that our first image of Lan is a cut that makes it seem like he just awkwardly whacked the sword in bad form. I've been excited to see Daniel Henney in action, and they did him dirty with that cut.

If they're gonna do character promos I wish they'd pay someone competent to make it into something memorable and worth sharing. Compare the stuff we're getting to something just as brief and yet put together well.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Carebear Sedai

DojoToad · May 1, 2021

7 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think that info is coming soon. Maybe as early as next week. Almost certainly before the end of May.

Where do you get that from?

king of nowhere · May 1, 2021

incidentally, as lan is likely fighting a trolloc, it makes me wonder how they did trollocs.

I mean, in the books they are described as 2.5 meters tall. that sounds very complicated to render in movies. sure, you can do a lot of things to make a 2.5 meters creature. but to have that creature swordfighting? that removes any chance for costumes (the actor could not move well enough to fight in it). as for virtual graphics, having lan move naturally while fighting against the air and then putting a big virtual monster on top of it doesn't seem very viable.

I don't know what they could do to have a big creature swordfight with a normal actor, though i'm sure they could manage it.

they also could shrink the trollocs to human size.

May 1, 2021

On 4/29/2021 at 2:09 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Mind quoting text from the books that describes Lan as a Beefy Henry Cavill?

From the books, Rand is supposed to be 6'-6", and Lan is 6'-5".
Both actors playing Rand/Lan are 6'-2".
I've always pictured both Rand & Lan having similar swordsman body builds, where as Perrin is the "thick" guy of the bunch.

Henry in Witcher was heavily criticized for looking way to thick.

To reiterate, Daniel isn't a "small" scrawny guy. (He's actually taller then Henry Cavill!)
The picture below is from a few years ago, so who knows how much muscle he might have packed on for this role.

from WoT Fandom:

Lan is often described as having a face of stone and chilling blue eyes. He is very tall with shoulder-length hair graying at the temples, held back by a leather headband called a hadori. He wears the color-shifting Warder cloak, and uses a sword as a weapon. His skill with a sword is such that he is capable of besting two Myrddraal at once.

from encyclopedia-wot.org:

He is very tall with shoulder length hair held by a leather headband or hadori (NS,Ch1). He is tall with long hair, gray at the temples, held back from his face by a narrow leather band. His face is made from stony planes and angles, weathered but unlined despite the gray in his hair. (TEotW,Ch2) He has blue eyes and is very tall. His long hair is grayer than it used to be. (ACoS,Ch12)

from Google search of book-Lan illustrations made for official book cover s and fan depictions:

wheel_of_time_tv_series.0.jpg

Even Mads or the guy from Vikings are reasonably evocative of all we are told by Jordan himself about Lan's appearance and demeanor and presence.

And then there is this, which for me sticks out like a sore thumb:

It's like swapping in Faramir for Boromir. Or thinking Stuart Townsend was a better Aragorn than Vigo (they needed a rougher, more mature, more physically present Aragorn and the rest is movie history).

Are they going to also retcon leather/svelte build/stealthy fighting for plate wearing/brute presence/stronger than 2 Myhrdraal from the books?

I am not suggesting Daniel isn't an awesome actor, just that I'm not sold on him being LAN. Maybe he'll surprise me, but at this point it will be a surprise. They could start by releasing a clip of Lan in action in any capacity, that doesn't seem designed specifically to hide what he looks and flows and leads to posts ... like mine.

Edited May 1, 2021 by redgiant

Elder_Haman · May 1, 2021

14 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Where do you get that from?

Just piecing it together from the information that is available. Season One filming will almost certainly wrap in May. Some "leaks" have claimed 5/12 as a release date for the trailer - and while not verified, there's too much smoke there to completely dismiss those claims. We have had content released monthly since December.

I'm confident that - at a minimum - we will know the release quarter (or season) by the end of May, and more than likely an actual target month or date. I'm also fairly confident that a trailer is coming by the end of the month.

But we will see. I was confident that there would be a Super Bowl trailer and that didn't pan out, so take it with a grain of salt.

SinisterDeath · May 1, 2021

28 minutes ago, redgiant said:

On 4/29/2021 at 4:09 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Mind quoting text from the books that describes Lan as a Beefy Henry Cavill?

From the books, Rand is supposed to be 6'-6", and Lan is 6'-5".
Both actors playing Rand/Lan are 6'-2".
I've always pictured both Rand & Lan having similar swordsman body builds, where as Perrin is the "thick" guy of the bunch.

Henry in Witcher was heavily criticized for looking way to thick.

To reiterate, Daniel isn't a "small" scrawny guy. (He's actually taller then Henry Cavill!)
The picture below is from a few years ago, so who knows how much muscle he might have packed on for this role.

Expand

from WoT Fandom:

Lan is often described as having a face of stone and chilling blue eyes. He is very tall with shoulder-length hair graying at the temples, held back by a leather headband called a hadori. He wears the color-shifting Warder cloak, and uses a sword as a weapon. His skill with a sword is such that he is capable of besting two Myrddraal at once.

from encyclopedia-wot.org:

He is very tall with shoulder length hair held by a leather headband or hadori (NS,Ch1). He is tall with long hair, gray at the temples, held back from his face by a narrow leather band. His face is made from stony planes and angles, weathered but unlined despite the gray in his hair. (TEotW,Ch2) He has blue eyes and is very tall. His long hair is grayer than it used to be. (ACoS,Ch12)

All of that just describes his eyes, hair, and height.

The actor playing Lan is literally as tall as the actor playing Rand.

29 minutes ago, redgiant said:

from Google search of book-Lan illustrations made for official book cover s and fan depictions:

The depictions you linked, don't show a Netflix witcher thicc dude. With biceps bigger then other men's heads.

The book covers are also notoriously not cannon. Yeah I know how that sounds. But take a peak at some of them, and compare them to character descriptions.

31 minutes ago, redgiant said:

It's like swapping in Faramir for Boromir. Or thinking Stuart Townsend was a better Aragorn than Vigo (they needed a rougher, more mature, more physically present Aragorn and the rest is movie history).

Mainly what I'm seeing isn't a complaint about his physicallity, but that he isn't an anglo-saxon mature guy.

Thrasymachus · May 1, 2021

I think we need to be careful that we aren't dismissing valid aesthetic criticism simply because some of the earliest fan reactions to the casting were based in disgusting racism and bigotry.

I don't know that Daniel Henney is a bad choice for Lan; I haven't actually seen enough of him as Lan to make any kind of judgement. I do agree with Carebear Sedai that these little snippets are doing more harm than good, especially at this early stage when most of the marketing is still directed at the existing fans of the franchise, or at the relatively few fans of the actors themselves. Rafe's little snippet about "girding our loins" for changes is not going well, and not all the "but it's just another Turning of the Wheel" is enough to make bad aesthetic choices that divide and alienate the fanbase not bad choices. It's not about the races of the cast. I have no reason to doubt that Daniel Henney could portray the kind of badass that Lan is. But the aesthetic choices they're making in what they're showing us are simply bad. Thom's guitar, Tam's sword, the Shadar Logoth dagger, the entirely too-short snips of Moiraine and Lan which reveal either nothing about their characterization in the series or give the wrong impressions. None of this is really helping create a sense of excitement for the series or a desire to share it around.

Wheel of Time has had a curse with its appearances in other media. Comics that are never finished. A bizarre fps with a disavowed backstory that was overshadowed by better shooters released that year. A ttrpg released under the worst version of D&D. The Winter Dragon. Red Eagle Entertainment. The hope was that this production could break that curse. But it's beginning to look more and more like it's still suffering under it.

SinisterDeath · May 1, 2021

3 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

I think we need to be careful that we aren't dismissing valid aesthetic criticism simply because some of the earliest fan reactions to the casting were based in disgusting racism and bigotry.

Sure, but remember this is what I was responding to.

On 4/29/2021 at 3:02 PM, redgiant said:

is that he can actually carry Lan as the type of physical force character he is. Picture a body build more like Henry Cavaziel (put long DARK hair on The Witcher character, for example).

On 4/29/2021 at 3:02 PM, redgiant said:

His body style reminds me more of a slender Samurai in a loose kimono-style robe than a husky, beefy, effortlessly armored, gravely-voiced al'Lan Mandragoran.

For reference here's a picture of Henry as the Witcher.

Now, where in the aforementioned book descriptions does it say Lan is a thicc boi?

The book covers are worthless as far as cannon goes.

Half of the fan art is a reskinned Aragorn.

The Daniel Bros is questionably approved by RJ.

Ultimately, complaints over hair, style are valid.

Complaints of physicality are unwarranted, and everything else boils down to "he just doesn't look like how he does in my head", which for many of us was basically Aragorn from LOTR movies, that you can clearly see in the fan art.

Elder_Haman · May 1, 2021

5 hours ago, redgiant said:

And then there is this, which for me sticks out like a sore thumb:

So you're judging the casting by some unofficial fan art?

4 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

But the aesthetic choices they're making in what they're showing us are simply bad. Thom's guitar, Tam's sword, the Shadar Logoth dagger, the entirely too-short snips of Moiraine and Lan which reveal either nothing about their characterization in the series or give the wrong impressions. None of this is really helping create a sense of excitement for the series or a desire to share it around.

These choices are "simply bad" - for you. No sense of excitement - for you. But these are entirely subjective. I get that your excitement has dulled, but it is certainly not true for everyone in the fandom.

I guess I just don't understand the attraction of crapping on the show before we've actually seen it.

Thrasymachus · May 1, 2021

I don't think that sort of criticism is necessarily grounded in racism. Lan is described as being nearly as tall as Rand, and broader across the shoulders. He is plucked right out of fantasy tropes, and is clearly intended to be cast in the mould of Aragon. I mean, down to the actually being an uncrowned king. Lan is supposed to be a mountain of a man: implacable and dominating.

Which is not to say that Daniel Henney couldn't pull off that kind of look. And for all we know, he still might. But that little snippet is not giving that vibe. In that snippet, Daniel Henney doesn't look like Lan and he's not behaving like we would expect Lan to behave. And it's not his facial features or his race that's the cause of that. It's the crouching, open-mouthed flailing hop that does that, with the loose, ragged outfit, when he should be standing tall, with feet firmly planted, mouth tightly closed or showing teeth in a grimace and moving his sword with a graceful economy rather than wasteful flourish, and wearing more well-fitting green scaled armor and his cloak being the only loose thing on him.

SinisterDeath · May 1, 2021

6 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

I don't think that sort of criticism is necessarily grounded in racism. Lan is described as being nearly as tall as Rand, and broader across the shoulders

And the actor that plays Lan is literally as tall as the actor that plays Rand, and you'd be lying if you try to tell me from the pictures of both, that Daniel has narrower shoulders then the actor that plays Rand.

7 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Lan is supposed to be a mountain of a man: implacable and dominating.

Quote the book where Lan is described as a shit brick house mutant witcher like Henry.

Implacable, Dominating isn't in stature, it's in demeener.

9 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

It's the crouching, open-mouthed flailing hop that does that, with the loose, ragged outfit, when he should be standing tall, with feet firmly planted, mouth tightly closed or showing teeth in a grimace and moving his sword with a graceful economy rather than wasteful flourish, and wearing more well-fitting green scaled armor and his cloak being the only loose thing on him.

That's valid criticism.

But we also have no idea where that clip is taken from, whether it's even supposed to be Lan in his best gear.

That 6 second clip didn't really show you anything about his fighting style. (I REALLY HOPE, they didn't have him do a hand swing with that sword)

Thrasymachus · May 1, 2021

8 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

These choices are "simply bad" - for you. No sense of excitement - for you. But these are entirely subjective. I get that your excitement has dulled, but it is certainly not true for everyone in the fandom.

I guess I just don't understand the attraction of crapping on the show before we've actually seen it.

They're actually not entirely subjective. If art were entirely subjective, there'd be no such thing as bad art. It wouldn't be possible to have whole degree programs devoted to various forms of artistic expression. But there is, objectively, bad art out there.

And the "crapping on the show before we've actually seen it" is not a fair characterization. To be more accurate, it's crapping on the aesthetic choices they've made that they're showing us, and the way they're being shown. And that's fair crapping because they are bad choices that are either objectively ugly and/or fail to respect the source material and that doing so is unnecessarily divisive amongst the pre-existing fanbase.

Thrasymachus · May 1, 2021

5 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

And the actor that plays Lan is literally as tall as the actor that plays Rand, and you'd be lying if you try to tell me from the pictures of both, that Daniel has narrower shoulders then the actor that plays Rand.

Which is why I begin my next paragraph with:

21 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Which is not to say that Daniel Henney couldn't pull off that kind of look. And for all we know, he still might.

Because there's nothing about him, as a person, and certainly not because of his race, that prevents him from pulling it off. But Daniel Henney is not in charge of how he looks on the show. The directors and showrunners are.

11 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

That's valid criticism.

But we also have no idea where that clip is taken from, whether it's even supposed to be Lan in his best gear.

That 6 second clip didn't really show you anything about his fighting style. (I REALLY HOPE, they didn't have him do a hand swing with that sword)

You're right, we don't know any of that. But they did have the choice of what clip to show us. Why show us that?

Lan reveal

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