Brand New Content!

[Elder_Haman]

So we have brand new content from the official WoTonPrime Twitter account!!

 

This time, it's related to our favorite gleeman. So, forums - what do you think?

[Thrasymachus]

I guess Thom's getting a guitar rather than a harp.  Makes sense, though.  A harp is a little esoteric for today's audiences.  I'm not that fond of the "Donation for the gleeman?" line at the end, sounds a little too much like they're trying for a, "toss a coin to your Witcher" line, and it kinda made me cringe the first time hearing it.  I'm sure it'll work out fine, though.

 

I'm glad to be proved wrong that they gave us something before Christmas, but as far as Christmas presents go, this seems more like a stocking-stuffer.  I could wish for the guitar to be a bit more decorated, though.  You'd think that a former court-bard's primary instrument would be quite embellished, whereas the reveal is of an obviously well-made, but rather plain-looking guitar.

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

I guess Thom's getting a guitar rather than a harp.  Makes sense, though.  A harp is a little esoteric for today's audiences.  I'm not that fond of the "Donation for the gleeman?" line at the end, sounds a little too much like they're trying for a, "toss a coin to your Witcher" line, and it kinda made me cringe the first time hearing it.  I'm sure it'll work out fine, though.

 

I'm glad to be proved wrong that they gave us something before Christmas, but as far as Christmas presents go, this seems more like a stocking-stuffer.  I could wish for the guitar to be a bit more decorated, though.  You'd think that a former court-bard's primary instrument would be quite embellished, whereas the reveal is of an obviously well-made, but rather plain-looking guitar.

I'm going to have a hard time with voices until I can connect them with faces. I have Michael Kramer and Kate Reading too deeply embedded in my brain. 

 

I think Thom is in for a fairly substantial change. His backstory with Morgase is ultimately unnecessary. And his relationship with Moiraine comes out of nowhere. Retconning Thom would give them the chance to sow seeds for the Moiraine/Thom romance (either by playing it out on screen or by giving the two of them history) and avoid having to write dialogue to establish a plot point that ultimately doesn't matter. "Once famous traveling musician who played the court of..." is close enough to former Court Bard of Andor and makes things simpler for the writers.

 

And - just a little nugget of candy for your stocking. Of all the little teasers @WoTonPrime has released (Winespring Inn, audio clip, heron marked blade, and Thom's guitar) only today's showed up on the official Sony Pictures Television twitter account. 

 

[Thrasymachus]

I mean, the guitar is a pretty superficial change.  My only real complaint there is two-part, one of which I've already mentioned.  That guitar needs some flair, decorative carvings or inlays; something that looks like it has a story to tell all on its own, rather than looking like a hand-me-down from somebody's grandpa (if a well-kept hand-me-down).  The other is that it seems like they're dropping the flute too, and that's a shame.  A shepherd and his flute is iconic, the juxtaposition of flute and harp (or in this case guitar) is important to demonstrate the respect Rand has for Thom, insofar as Rand never touched the harp/guitar, but uses the flute to earn his food and lodging in more than one arc.  And I'll miss the ladies' innuendos about Rand teaching them to "play his flute."

 

So far, though, this is a pretty superficial change for Thom, as well as the revelation that the patches will be on the lining of his cloak, rather than the outside.  I hope it's at least reversible, so he can wear the cloak with the patches showing when he's performing or trying to drum up an audience.  I don't think Thom's changing that much.  Jazzed up a bit, but I'm not seeing any kind of radical change.

 

This falls squarely in the category of "neat, but not revelatory." At least, not that revelatory, and not really what fans want, which is news about when we can expect to tune in to the first episode.  Sony Pictures Television retweeting them isn't that meaningful, it's entirely possible their social media manager just had a slow day.  As far as Christmas presents go, this isn't quite as bad as socks and underwear, but it's also a far cry from a new PS5 and 65" TV.  More like coloring books and puzzles.  Neat, and worth an afternoon playing with them, but quickly forgotten when the "real" presents show up.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Sony Pictures Television retweeting them isn't that meaningful, it's entirely possible their social media manager just had a slow day.  

The Sony Pictures Television twitter feed is exclusively a promotion device. Literally all it does is promote Sony content. It has never promoted WoT content before. The fact that they chose today to promote Wheel of Time for the first time with the tag, "Something new" is positively loaded with meaning. 

[Harldin]

Before anyone decides to start attacking the fact that they appear to have swapped one type of Musical Instrument for another, please remember that in the TV Show the Actors may have to play that Instrument and in the case of Alexandre, very convincingly. It may just be a case of Alexandre being a very good Guitar player who has never played the Harp. 

And of course the TV Show is a different turning of the Wheel to the Books. 

[mistborn82]

@Elder_HamanI was going to say that very thing about Michael and Kate as I've only ever listened, I'm legally blind and it's much easier, so have no imagining of character voices without those two.

As far as Thom's backstory, the could make him court bard in Cairhein, he could know Moiraine and Tarangael. Maybe he falls out of favor because they think helped Moiraine run from her duty, becoming Queen. Perhaps they stay friends until Elaida all but kills Owen and then it stops. You don't need that much to change from Cairhein to Andor and I personally think Cairhein makes more sense.

[Elder_Haman]

@mistborn82 I definitely think that's a possibility. It would be a good change, would still give Thom the requisite knowledge of the Game of Houses, etc.

 

I noticed something about the last two content drops. We got: (1) iron - Tam's sword; (2) music - Thom's guitar. Are we going to get ? next?

[mistborn82]

Fireworks, I really hope we get the Finn, though there will be some changes because you can't really have Moiraine disappear for the most of the series, not to mention the insane version of Lanfear makes a much better villain.

[Elder_Haman]

59 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

Fireworks, I really hope we get the Finn, though there will be some changes because you can't really have Moiraine disappear for the most of the series, not to mention the insane version of Lanfear makes a much better villain.

Moiraine's arc will remain untouched. You just can't do away with the Finn without completely kneecapping Mat's entire arc too. (Not to mention nuking the spiritual foundation of the series) But I think it will be handled in a way so that she is only entirely gone for a single season (returning toward the end of the penultimate season).

 

 

[johnnysd]

On 12/24/2020 at 10:00 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Moiraine's arc will remain untouched. You just can't do away with the Finn without completely kneecapping Mat's entire arc too. (Not to mention nuking the spiritual foundation of the series) But I think it will be handled in a way so that she is only entirely gone for a single season (returning toward the end of the penultimate season).

 

 

 

I know Moiraine going away is sacrosant to so many but I do not think she will be gone for very long in the show maybe half a season. She is just not going to disappear for several seasons and then come back for a couple episodes just don't see it.

 

I thought Rafe's answers were super interesting:

 

1. No cameos for major characters that will be in later seasons, each needs their own real introduction. So no Verin, Elaida, etc...glimpses in first season. This does go a little against the "surprise" Aiel he teased already

 

2. One major character not in show that we can likely guess- Elayne obviously. One we will be surprised -Ishamael being the most likely

 

3. Very limited but fully fleshed out locations. He mentioned 4 but I think there will be 5.  My guess? Two Rivers, obvious. We know Shadar Logoth is in. Without Elayne and with Min being in last block, Caemlyn and Baerlon are axed. We know that Fal Dar is in, so that is three. We know we see the gentling of Logain so I think they reunite in Tar Valon. Four. I think the other is 4 Kings. .  I do not think Whitebridge will be in but I have a feeling that Rand and Mat might still escape by boat and they show TOG and the Whitebridge itself. Might make sense for them to meet Thom on the boat and they travel together after Thom learns of Moiraine and where they were going and after they escape the inn, Thom fights off a fade like in Whitebridge.

 

4. Seems we will be getting modern cursing.

 

5. Without Ishamael it is possible that there is no Eye and just the battle at Tarwin's Gap. I still see the Eye as too iconic not to be there though but I am not 100% as I was before. But there is still Steve who I have always thought was Somestha anyway.

 

6. Guitar actually makes more sense even in the books. WoT is not medieval it is very late Renaissance close to the industrial revolution and guitar was one of the most popular instruments of the time, Fernando Sor and Mauro Giuliani were practically rock stars at that time.

 

7. The observation that we have gotten steel and now music is super interesting. Something about fire next would make a lot of sense and be a fantastic in-joke.

 

All in all it seems like the show is in really good hands. All the news to now suggested a show very close to tEOtW but it seems it might be changed more than anticipated,

[mistborn82]

If we get Loial though, I hope, Caemlyn will probably be there and I think Elaida will be in season 1, especially if she's being set up as a bigger antagonist. It also depends on if Logain is gentled following protocols or if Elaida goes against orders. Also Verin has to be in there, depending on where exactly they end s1 because if it ends where EoTW does, then there's no need but if  it goes into tGH, then you need Verin, especially if you make a cliffhanger out of the Fal Dara meeting.

[Elder_Haman]

21 hours ago, johnnysd said:

I thought Rafe's answers were super interesting:

Rafe's answers raised some questions for me. But, in general they left me feeling very good about how they are approaching the adaptation. Specifically, I like that they seem to be trying to craft scenes and dialogue to show what's going on in a character's head (things that Jordan just gives us by telling us what the character is thinking). That will result in dramatic changes to the story, but keep the characters true (which - IMHO - is the key for a good adaptation).

 

This Q&A was enlightening:

Quote

Q: Are there some major characters that appear in the first book that won’t appear in the first season?

A: Yes. And some of them are still slated to appear in later seasons (again, approaching the adaptation of the series, not just each book individually). A few of these characters I bet you already expect this for, and one, at least, I think will surprise you.

I think, by now people who are trying to follow the ins and outs of production expect that we will not see: Morgase, Elayne, Gawyn, or Galad. That likely means that Elaida is out. I doubt many would be surprised to see Ba'alzamon/Ishamael, Someshta, Aginor or Balthamel gone as well. 

 

Rafe's answer makes me think that we will not see Elyas in season 1. Elyas is a character I think most believe critical, but the more I think about it, the more I think they will cut him. Cutting Elyas would give Perrin's connection to the wolves a less benign feeling, making it less clear that what is happening to him is desireable. (Are the whitecloaks right? Are the wolves servants of the Dark?) It would also amp up the stakes of the Noam/Perrin plot line. Elyas coming along later - maybe after Perrin takes the de facto lead in the search for the horn - could make more sense.

 

This exchange also got me thinking:

Quote

Q: Have you made changes that hurt you/Sarah to make, but were necessary for the screen?

A: The writers room floor is littered with my tears. Truly though, I don’t want people to be unprepared for how different the show is to the books. To do a proper adaptation, it has to be. As a thought exercise, just imagine we can only do four of the cities from EoTW. So from Emonds Field, Taren Ferry, Baerlon, Shadar Logoth, Whitebridge, Four Kings, Breen’s Spring, Caemlyn, Fal Dara, which do you choose? What are the knock-on effects for character and story from the ones you don’t go to? Which characters haven’t met each other now and how can you reconnect them? We have amazing writers and hugely helpful support in Brandon and Harriet to tackle these changes. But they’re not small. Gird your loins, my friends.

Clearly we are getting Emonds Field. We've seen the set. No question we will get Shadar Logoth - too major of a plot point to cut.

 

Rafe said we had to imagine they could only do four - so I don't think anyone should take that as meaning that the show only did four. But clearly they couldn't do all nine. I believe you can combine Taren Ferry with Baerlon. You can combine Whitebridge and Four Kings. (When I say "combine", I mean take major plot elements from each location and make them happen in a different way. For example, you meet the Whitecloaks in Taren Ferry instead of Baerlon.

 

I think we will still get Camelyn and Fal Dara. That's five, not four. But seems consistent with the flow of the story. 

 

Finally, I don't know if you are getting this: 

22 hours ago, johnnysd said:

4. Seems we will be getting modern cursing.

from this:

Quote

Q: Do you attempt to keep book dialogue? Or start from scratch?

A: Every writer receives a document when they begin their script put together by our book expert, Sarah, that breaks down every scene in the episode and gives specific dialogue and scene references from the books for it. Especially for scenes that aren’t from the books at all, we will find scenes from the books with the same characters together or talking about the same thing thematically. That said, predictably, almost all the dialogue in the show is not from the books so as to sound as natural as possible with our locations/actors/scenes as they’re played.

but I don't know that I would go quite that far. I think "sound as natural as possible" means natural in world not necessarily "natural" as in modern or colloquial. I think we will get some modern cursing, but I bet we don't lose "flaming" and the like entirely.

 

Overall, I agree that the show seems to be in good hands. It's not going to be a mess like "Shannara Chronicles".

[mistborn82]

My question is if you have Logain, don't need Elaida?

[Carebear Sedai]

I have no idea what they're gonna do with Elaida. Her part in TEOTW is the most important of the Caemlyn characters. If she's not there, they'll have to completely rewrite how she comes to suspect Moiraine and Siuan of conniving together, which completely messes with the WT coup. I don't mind not meeting the Trakands yet, but Elaida meeting Rand there is essential.

 

 

On 12/25/2020 at 1:55 PM, johnnysd said:

1. No cameos for major characters that will be in later seasons, each needs their own real introduction. So no Verin, Elaida, etc...glimpses in first season. This does go a little against the "surprise" Aiel he teased already

 

I don't think that's what Rafe was saying. Verin can still have a proper introduction, as long as she's the main focus of her scenes. For example, if she discovers the Blood Calls Blood prophecy, and deciphers it, then subtly threatens Siuan by telling her she remembers her as a girl. A meaningful arc of a few scenes will still be attractive to high caliber actors.

 

Likewise, Elaida can have an incredibly memorable scene with Rand, and another ordering Caemlyn guards to hunt him down and finding out Moiraine is protecting him and up to no good. Which sets up that rivalry. All this can happen in one episode, and still be enough for her to become a memorable character. The same would go for the surprise Aiel. 

 

What I expect Rafe was talking about was the Trakand scene with eight different characters being introduced at the same time, and none of them do very much. Galad stands around for 90% of it. Gareth Bryne poses a bit. Gawyn was nice and friendly. Elayne fixed Rand's boo-boos and called him cute...

Galad/Gawyn/Bryne/Tallavanor will be lucky to have 3 lines each, meaning no substantial actor will want that part. Even more problematic, TV audience won't take well to 8 new faces, most of whom have no real place in the plot yet. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Carebear Sedai

[deathgate]

I actually don't get the drop Elaida stuff since she becomes Amyrlin. Someone has to become Amyrlin so why not her? I guess she could show up later as could Elaine and her brothers but I believe they're all intersected and important.

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, deathgate said:

I actually don't get the drop Elaida stuff since she becomes Amyrlin. Someone has to become Amyrlin so why not her? I guess she could show up later as could Elaine and her brothers but I believe they're all intersected and important.

It’s not really dropping Elaida, but pushing her introduction back in time. If you have her meet Rand as part of Siuan’s entourage in Fal Dara, not much has to change. 

[FancySkull]

On 12/24/2020 at 6:27 AM, Thrasymachus said:

I'm not that fond of the "Donation for the gleeman?" line at the end, sounds a little too much like they're trying for a, "toss a coin to your Witcher" line, and it kinda made me cringe the first time hearing it.

 

In what way? Sounds to me like a pretty standard request from a performer especially if someone is approaching him like i suspect is happening here.

[mistborn82]

If we see Logain being gentled, we need Elaida in season 1 and also, I don't see Moiraine being menacing enough. She's still an 'evil' AS as Rand and the boys see it but Everyone has heard that Reds hunt men so a Red hunting Rand since near the beginning will up the danger for the non-reader audience.

[Elder_Haman]

10 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

If we see Logain being gentled, we need Elaida in season 1 and also, I don't see Moiraine being menacing enough. She's still an 'evil' AS as Rand and the boys see it but Everyone has heard that Reds hunt men so a Red hunting Rand since near the beginning will up the danger for the non-reader audience.

True. But you will create that same sense of danger for Rand by showing the Reds hunting Logain. If you properly establish the Red Ajah as menacing from the start, just knowing Elaida is a red will be good enough to establish her as a scary antagonist. 
 

Also, don’t forget that the show may well try to deemphasize Rand. While the books make it immediately clear that he is the primary protagonist, I’m not sure the show will. They may want to play up the mystery of who the Dragon reborn really is. Making him the primary target of a Red Ajah hunt in season one would hamstring any effort at being coy with the Dragon’s identity. 

[Guest redgiant]

My suspicion more and more wrt what things they may have cut and/or changed, relate to how much they are going for covering up which boy is the most 'special'.

 

Book readers might forget just how much slanting towards Rand is done fairly immediately in tEotW. I think the series will purposely stray from that immensely for a while.

 

- Dragonmount as an opening cannot happen in Season 1. Gitara flashback may take its place simply to establish why Morraine is looking for boys of a certain age. But nothing more, no mention of the babies heritage yet.

 

- don't be surprised if Rand's 'red hair', height, etc are downplayed or not explicitly mentioned by moving 'head thoughts' from the book into dialogue. They may show the differences, but they won't call them out at first in Season 1. Book readers will notice the lack of attention to this, but others won't ... yet. Rand and Tam will appear as biological father/son for a while, with the reveal of his heritage delayed on purpose until they aare ready to thrust Rand into the top spot of "ahha!".

 

- cutting Elayne/Elaida definitely removes a huge 'Rand is the central one' point

 

- focusing more on Logain, including developing and showing witherto unseen things in the books, such as his actual capture, let's them focus more on the Aes Sedai and their power/purpose, as well as directing our attention at Logain himself up front showing how dangerous a channeling man is, without touching on which boy might matter at all. In the books, even the scene showing Logain laughing etc is really a Rand moment, not a Logain one.

 

- cutting some of the travel spots may also play into hiding who is who. Maybe they focus even more on Perrin (wolves) and Matt (dagger), to the point that they may really be trying to keep Rand from being an obvious focus until either the end of Season 1 (Eye) or even into Season 2 (although that would mean they would have to omit, alter or mislead us in some serious plot points from the Eye).

 

I really think it is being done more to misdirect and delay the focus on Rand as much as saving money on actors or locations included in the series.

 

One other thing: the scene where Elaida whispers in Rand's ear 'so I speak the truth", is too good a scene not to use ... somewhere, although I can't quite figure out how that would become a live scene or flashback later on unless they change the plot entirely as to when he first comes before Morgase.

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by redgiant

[johnnysd]

4 hours ago, redgiant said:

My suspicion more and more wrt what things they may have cut and/or changed, relate to how much they are going for covering up which boy is the most 'special'.

 

Book readers might forget just how much slanting towards Rand is done fairly immediately in tEotW. I think the series will purposely stray from that immensely for a while.

 

- Dragonmount as an opening cannot happen in Season 1. Gitara flashback may take its place simply to establish why Morraine is looking for boys of a certain age. But nothing more, no mention of the babies heritage yet.

 

- don't be surprised if Rand's 'red hair', height, etc are downplayed or not explicitly mentioned by moving 'head thoughts' from the book into dialogue. They may show the differences, but they won't call them out at first in Season 1. Book readers will notice the lack of attention to this, but others won't ... yet. Rand and Tam will appear as biological father/son for a while, with the reveal of his heritage delayed on purpose until they aare ready to thrust Rand into the top spot of "ahha!".

 

- cutting Elayne/Elaida definitely removes a huge 'Rand is the central one' point

 

- focusing more on Logain, including developing and showing witherto unseen things in the books, such as his actual capture, let's them focus more on the Aes Sedai and their power/purpose, as well as directing our attention at Logain himself up front showing how dangerous a channeling man is, without touching on which boy might matter at all. In the books, even the scene showing Logain laughing etc is really a Rand moment, not a Logain one.

 

- cutting some of the travel spots may also play into hiding who is who. Maybe they focus even more on Perrin (wolves) and Matt (dagger), to the point that they may really be trying to keep Rand from being an obvious focus until either the end of Season 1 (Eye) or even into Season 2 (although that would mean they would have to omit, alter or mislead us in some serious plot points from the Eye).

 

I really think it is being done more to misdirect and delay the focus on Rand as much as saving money on actors or locations included in the series.

 

One other thing: the scene where Elaida whispers in Rand's ear 'so I speak the truth", is too good a scene not to use ... somewhere, although I can't quite figure out how that would become a live scene or flashback later on unless they change the plot entirely as to when he first comes before Morgase.

 

 

I agree somewhat but it won't last the entire season in my view. Rand will be known to channel by Episode 4 or so (Four Kings) Now I think they will maybe not suggest he is the true dragon until like Episode 9 but really it's not going beyond that without essentially a complete overhaul of the story

[deathgate]

On 12/27/2020 at 9:28 PM, johnnysd said:

 

I agree somewhat but it won't last the entire season in my view. Rand will be known to channel by Episode 4 or so (Four Kings) Now I think they will maybe not suggest he is the true dragon until like Episode 9 but really it's not going beyond that without essentially a complete overhaul of the story

This is why having Thom is so important. His nephew channeling and being brought down by the Red Ajah could be fleshed out more and if Rand is Dragon is delayed showing concern that he might be hunted by the Reds can be a real diversion tactic. BTW, if they do show Logain being hunted do they need to introduce Cadsuane much earlier than the books? Also in reference to characters not being used early for a short snippet and then disappear for a few years I wonder if there will be flashbacks to the prequel to reveal more about Moriane, Lan, Siuan and Elaida.