Could Healing be used as a weapon?

[Wheel of Time Fan]

I just had this thought and I was wondering if you could in fact use Healing as a weapon. It sounds wrong but just hear me out. So Healing is meant to heal people right? But it also drains the person being Healed of energy and takes a minimal amount of energy from the Healer. So could you Heal someone to make them weak and easy to defeat or capture? What do you think? Could Healing be used as a weapon?

[Wheel of Time Fan]

Also if you are going to reply with spoilers for books 11-14 then please leave a spoiler warning at the top of your comment. Sorry. I just really hate spoilers! Thanks to everyone who puts up with my request.

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Wheel of Time Fan

[Sabio]

Why not just tie them up in air when they are in need of healing?  There are probably more efficient ways to make someone weak if you want to defeat them.  You are basicly just making them tired.

[Effete]

Yeah, probably.

Healing makes a person weak /hungry because it (most likely) speeds up the target's metabolism and rate of cell growth. It's unknown whether a person will suffer these effects if there's nothing to actually Heal, but if it does indeed speed-up metabolism and promote cell division, then the channeler is essentially robbing minutes, or even days, from a person's life!

 

When cells divide, they deteriorate a tiny bit each time. Eventually, the genes responsible for producing certain proteins shut down, turning hair hair or causing skin to lose its elasticity, or resulting in other "age-related" problems. It may be possible to Heal someone to death. It'd probably take a very long time, and because the intent is to cause harm, it'd certainly violate the Three Oaths.

 

If the Oaths aren't an issue, you'd be better of exploding the person's head... or binding them in Air and slitting their throat.

[SinisterDeath]

AFAIK, healing like that would almost require a wound in order to get the body to start the healing process.
Theoretically, you could go all Steven King's Misery on someone through endless torture & healing.

IF, a person were able to keep healing someone even after they are fully healed. 
It's entirely possible you could effectively cause Cancer in that person. E.G. The cells keep 'healing', developing and growing Tumors incredibly fast.

[Denver Steve]

The problem is that you have to touch them to heal them(or at least be very close to them). And if someone trusts you enough to heal them, or they are too weak to stop you from touching then, it’s just easier to kill them with other weaves.  Using the power to stop a heart from beating takes very little power.

Semirhage was a great healer in her day, but she “always took a little bit more for herself” I not sure if that meant she caused unecessary pain with the process or if she added weaves that caused pain on top of it.  If anyone could/would kill with healing it was her.

[Effete]

44 minutes ago, Denver Steve said:

The problem is that you have to touch them to heal them(or at least be very close to them).

 

Except this isn't true. Touching the patient is psychosomatic action that the sisters perform, but touching has absolutely nothing to do with creating the Healing weave.

 

A similar topic was discussed in the books when the Wise Ones criticized the Aes Sedai for performing "throwing motions" whenever they channeled fireballs. By thinking they needed to form the weave near their hand first, the AS limited their utility with it. Recall that Aviendha was able to form fireballs several yards away and launch them toward herself (albeit, through the Gate she was standing behind). An Ars Sedai couldn't do that.

 

A channeler should be able to Heal without touching. It's just they learn to do it while touching, and have considerable difficulty "unlearning" it. It's like a Wilder's block in that regard.

[Denver Steve]

Point taken ?

its just that there’s no examples of people healing from a distance. Dahmer Flin does it by hovering his hand over people, but no one heals from distances.

 

[Effete]

9 hours ago, Denver Steve said:

Point taken ?

its just that there’s no examples of people healing from a distance. Dahmer Flin does it by hovering his hand over people, but no one heals from distances.

 

Well, I think maintaining a close proximity is necessary so the channeler can actually see what their weaves are doing, but physical contact is not needed. As you say, Flinn hovers his hands over Rand... and he talks, which he said makes it easier for some reason (again, his own "learned" behavior). ?

 

If I recall correctly, Nyneave also doesn't touch Logain when she Heals his severing; she just stares at him across the table. I might be wrong on that, though, not sure.

[Jsbrads2]

We never saw an energized Last Action Hero, with merely a flesh wound healed and then collapse on the floor. We see people dying, bleeding out, healing them can save their lives and make them tired.

I think if two people were in a duel and every time one guy gets a small cut, that guy gets healed. The second guy, every time he gets cut, he doesn’t get healed, even discounting noticeable blood loss, the second guy would lose the duel. 

I think if someone tried to heal someone who is Not sick, the weave would just collapse without snapping into place on the person.

 

[Harldin]

On 4/5/2020 at 3:22 PM, Effete said:

Well, I think maintaining a close proximity is necessary so the channeler can actually see what their weaves are doing, but physical contact is not needed. As you say, Flinn hovers his hands over Rand... and he talks, which he said makes it easier for some reason (again, his own "learned" behavior). ?

 

If I recall correctly, Nyneave also doesn't touch Logain when she Heals his severing; she just stares at him across the table. I might be wrong on that, though, not sure.

Im not sure the healing of Gentling/Stilling should be looked at in the same way as healing a Physical injury or an Illness. The connection to the power exists outside the Channelers body, it’s closer to a Spiritual* thing than a Physical issue, touching the body in this case would definitely make no difference.

*for want of a better term, just can’t think of one.

[icspots]

On 4/5/2020 at 1:22 AM, Effete said:

Well, I think maintaining a close proximity is necessary so the channeler can actually see what their weaves are doing, but physical contact is not needed. As you say, Flinn hovers his hands over Rand... and he talks, which he said makes it easier for some reason (again, his own "learned" behavior). ?

 

If I recall correctly, Nyneave also doesn't touch Logain when she Heals his severing; she just stares at him across the table. I might be wrong on that, though, not sure.

 

I’m trying to think back to that moment when she heals Logain.  I feel like there was a comment that she took hold of his head and thought about how that made the gap easier to feel.  

 

As to killing with Healing, I’d say it’s possible.  There are multiple mentions about Chesmal, one of the Yellows best Healers, also being adept at killing with the power.  I mean if you’re adept at Healing it shoudn’t take much for you to make someone stroke out.

[Risyn_Mael]

When I first read the subject line of this thread, my mind went to a similar place as @SinisterDeath, regarding the possibility of uncontrolled cell growth and tumor formation. Obviously, that's not a thing that we see with the healing weaves taught and used in the series, but I can easily imagine that before the weaves were "perfected", that one would see disturbing side effects akin to cancer. And, it is not hard to imagine, further that these could or would be weaponized in some way. Either as a tool for "delayed assassination", if left to develop at a slow speed, or as a disturbing shock or psychological weapon if ramped up to high speed. Not the most efficient weapon, but a horrific one.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Risyn_Mael

[SinisterDeath]

46 minutes ago, Risyn_Mael said:

When I first read the subject line of this thread, my mind went to a similar place as @SinisterDeath, regarding the possibility of uncontrolled cell growth and tumor formation. Obviously, that's not a thing that we see with the healing weaves taught and used in the series, but I can easily imagine that before the weaves were "perfected", that one would see disturbing side effects akin to cancer. And, it is not hard to imagine, further that these could or would be weaponized in some way. Either as a tool for "delayed assassination", if left to develop at a slow speed, or as a disturbing shock or psychological weapon if ramped up to high speed. Not the most efficient weapon, but a horrific one.

Huh, that's not a bad idea.

One of the issues with many of these "what if" questions, is often times, you could just use the One Power to... explode a person. It's more effective/efficient/faster than trying something as intricate as "healing" to murder.

But say you could, "over-heal" and cause Tumors...
You could have an Aes Sedia in the Black Ajah, that's trying to assassinate someone while keeping their cover, and potentially set up the replacement to their target...

They could orchestrate an Attack, use the OP to "heal", the Target, create a tumor that'll kill them in 3 months, whether they're there or not.

In addition to this, if a person could use "healing" to cause Tumors, than they could also target and create brain-tumors to cause personality changes, dementia, and a whole host of  mental illnesses in various leaders and generals, sowing chaos.

Edited May 14, 2020 by SinisterDeath

[Risyn_Mael]

Efficiency isn't necessarily the most effective tool for "evil".  At least not in all circumstances, and especially not when one is undercover. Depending on their specific strengths and predilections, this could be a way for a Black Ajah AS to sow political instability or damage the morale of an institution. 

 

To get speculative, one also wonders if tumors caused by this warped form "healing" might be potentially resistant to true healing--as it was a related (but twisted) weave that created the illness. And, if so, that could be another psychological weapon, this one to undercut the authority and prestige of Aes Sedai and the White Tower. An Aes Sedai failing, even in part, to Heal someone? "Truly, these are dark times we're living in..."

Edited May 14, 2020 by Risyn_Mael

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, Risyn_Mael said:

Efficiency isn't necessarily the most effective tool for "evil".  At least not in all circumstances, and especially not when one is undercover. Depending on their specific strengths and predilections, this could be a way for a Black Ajah AS to sow political instability or damage the morale of an institution. "

True. There was an interview question someone asked RJ once about if the OP could do something, and he basically said "Yes, but why do something so complicated, when a simple fireball to the face will suffice." (In no way is that even paraphrasing, just the gist of what he said!)

Don't forget though, that one of the ways they sow political instability, is in their ability to lie, when everyone knows they can't.

 

6 minutes ago, Risyn_Mael said:

To get speculative, one also wonders if tumors caused by this warped form "healing" might be potentially resistant to true healing--as it was a related (but twisted) weave that created the illness. And, if so, that could be another psychological weapon, this one to undercut the authority and prestige of Aes Sedai and the White Tower. An Aes Sedai failing, even in part, to Heal someone? "Truly, these are dark times we're living in..."

This is the tough part. We don't know how this healing works mechanically enough to say if it would affect Cancer or Tumors. RJ was detailed, but not that detailed.

It's possible that the AOL cured cancer in the Human Genetic code. We don't know.
If the OP literally increases the metabolic rate of their target to induce healing, one of the side effects of healing would be increased risk of cancer! (Remember the effects of healing? Tiredness? Need to consume a huge amount of calories? the body needs to rest. I've always understood the OP healing as causing the body to speed up it's natural healing, over other magic systems that heal the wound.

[Risyn_Mael]

 

3 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

This is the tough part. We don't know how this healing works mechanically enough to say if it would affect Cancer or Tumors. RJ was detailed, but not that detailed.

 

True. And the fact that, by the end of the series, we understand that there truly are multiple ways to perform healing makes it even difficult to be certain what is and is not possible.

 

4 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

True. There was an interview question someone asked RJ once about if the OP could do something, and he basically said "Yes, but why do something so complicated, when a simple fireball to the face will suffice." (In no way is that even paraphrasing, just the gist of what he said!)

Don't forget though, that one of the ways they sow political instability, is in their ability to lie, when everyone knows they can't.

 

Absolutely agree--and a big reason I'm fascinated by villains who don't always deliver fireballs to the face. That's A tactic for when you're engaged in open war. Before the battle lines are clearly known, subtlety often accomplishes more than outright aggression. There are good reasons, after all, why the Black Ajah stayed hidden for millennia:

 

Black is not only the "color of evil" but also the color of darkness and shadows, and the things that go bump just out of sight.  ?

[Wheel of Time Fan]

Wow! This is way more responses then I thought the question would get! Thank you for all your great ideas! When I posed this question I was thinking of it more as if you were being attacked by multiple people at once, and you didn't want to kill them for some reason, maybe they have valuable information, could you make someone weak by Healing them to buy yourself some time to deal with the other threats? I haven't finished the series yet, so I didn't know if that was possible.

[Wheel of Time Fan]

On 3/24/2020 at 8:43 PM, Sabio said:

Why not just tie them up in air when they are in need of healing?  There are probably more efficient ways to make someone weak if you want to defeat them.  You are basicly just making them tired.

Well, if you Healed them, then you wouldn't have to hold the flows right? If you used a cage of Air and the person could channel, then you would have to worry about holding it as well as if they might break the weave. You would also have to worry about shielding them so they couldn't strike back at you.