Wheel of Time TV Show - MPAA Rating?

[imlad]

On 8/16/2019 at 8:00 AM, KingRodel said:

...And when the books described horrifying amounts of violence, sex, and language, they kept it the same.

 

Sorry, couldn't help myself. Y'all GOTers have stronger stomachs than me. Gosh I hope WoT keeps it at least TV-14 level.

 

Unrelated, who does everyone think is going to be the next character to be cast? Who do you hope will be cast next?

 

I've read all of both series, and to be honest, in the books, A Song of Ice and Fire isn't really that horrifying and brutal, no more so than Dumai's Wells. Sure, Martin actually throws the vulgar language into quote marks (while Jordan only puts his made up vulgarity into quotes, and then punts the actual vulgarity into "Uno voiced some choice words that made so-and-so blush" type stuff). And yes, Martin does include the rape which happens in the real world, and especially during medieval wartime, but he never actually focuses on it, or describes it in detail or anything. The media, and to an extent the television show, have blown all of those issues out of proportion in my opinion. Especially people who for whatever reason have some issue with the books, taking the fact that rapes are mentioned or referred to in the books and turning that into "the books have THIS MANY rapes in them" which is utter Trolloc excrement. I was watching a BookTuber recently who read a quote saying something like over 200 rapes in the five books of the series so far, and I was like WTFrak?!?!? because I would remember something like that (I'm a rape survivor, I wouldn't handle a series with that many rapes, let alone rapes described explitely).

 

I hope they cast Thom, Lan and Loial next. Any of the three, or all three together.

 

On 8/16/2019 at 9:00 AM, Zorlon said:

Is Egwene as Dragon a thing which has even been hinted at? 

 

It wouldnt necessarily be terrible, or even out of linec with prior worldbuilding-Jordan did once say there is also a female Dragon soul-, but from Dragonmount to the Eye, and everything afterwards, so much would have to be changed that it wouldnt really be the same story anymore and Rand kind of becomes as narratively pointless as the 4th boy on the cover of TEotW.

 

I think that is such an unlikely possibility that it would be about as likely as someone doing an adaptation of the New Testament and having it be the Virgin Mary on the cross instead of Jesus (and thematically, that's kinda similar to the suggestion given when you think about how Rand is the messiah figure; sure, I know Egwene isn't Rand's mother, but by the end of the series she is "Mother").

 

On 8/17/2019 at 5:07 AM, mactwist2 said:

 

I've only read the first two so far but it doesn't seem overly dark. I hope your right though as I'd rather it be mature than young adultish. It doesn't have to be smut obviously lol but when I think of times with swords and such I think of a gritty way of living. Obviously its fantasy but it's based somewhat on reality and back in them days if you lived to 40 you were the exception. Things moved quicker because you didnt have as much time. I dont know what I'm rambling about I just hope its good.

 

From what I learned in my college history courses (and from copious reading of historical stuff online and in books) the whole medieval lifespan thing being low was actually a misconception, because it was skewed by the extremely high infant (and child) mortality rate. If someone survived their first five years, they often tended to live into their 50s and 60s, some even into their 70s and 80s.

 

On 8/17/2019 at 5:35 AM, Dagon Thyne said:

Loial is the only character I see with heavy CGI.  The fades are gonna be mostly just makeup.  They said from the start that they want to do that.

 

The cloaks of the Fades can only be done right via CGI. They don't move from the wind, which would include that caused by them riding horses, walking, running, etc. The way I always saw it, only motions of their arms and legs (or anything else) directly touching the cloaks would cause the cloak to move. It is an integral part of the Fades' creepiness, the "something-is-not-right-ness" of them. I agree that the eyeless-ness can be done via prosthetics, I only suggested the possibilty of CGI as a means of making it easier on the performer to see while doing their job, and to save on time in the makeup chair and on latex (although that last cost probably wouldn't make up, pun intended, for the cost of the CG).

 

On 8/17/2019 at 9:53 AM, Jaglover said:

 

I wouldn't really agree there it is more to do with the reality of the world than acts of killing. Compare and contrast Arya's journey to Harrenhal with Nynaeve being able to reach Bearlon unmolested. 

 

One is brutal world based on the reality of medieval times and the other is a PG 13 world.   

 

I don't know if I would say Randland is a PG-13 world. The only thing PG-13 about the book series is the language actually put to the page. By that I specifically mean the vulgarity (see above in this comment). There is plenty of nudity (actually much more nudity than GRRM's stuff when you consider Shienaran bathing customs, Aiel sweat tents, Aiel gai'shain before white clothes are available for them, the Aes Sedai during certain ceremonies, the Sea Folk, and Rand & Aviendha's little trip to Seanchan) in The Wheel of Time series. Westeros and Essos do not have ravaging monsters that literally chop human beings up and put them in cook pots, which is something we actually see the results of in WoT. Nor does Martin's series have anything come anywhere near as brutal, disgusting, and astonishingly horrific as Dumai's Wells. Yes, I mentioned it up above, but it cannot be stressed enough. This battle is the most terrible thing I have ever read descriptions of in fantasy or science fiction in my entire life. That one scene alone would garner the show a TV-MA rating, or if in the cinema an NC-17 rating (formerly an X rating). 

 

No, Robert Jordan's series is a far cry from PG-13. A far cry.

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by SinisterDeath
1st: making something italics; 2nd: forgot something

[Jaglover]

12 hours ago, Goathill said:

 

Arya journey to Harrenhal was in the middle of a war. Nynaeve passed through a couple of small villages in her own area in a time of peace. 

 

Once the war starts in WoT its just as brutal. Its that the POV characters in WoT are generally at the heads of armies or they are powerful (aes sedai). Tywin and Stannis did not worry about bandits on the roads.

It was in a time of peace, but once she reached Taren Ferry then she was outside her own area. It was more the fact that no one particularly thought she was in any danger that was one example of a PG-13 world to me. Just one example really among many of a different mindset pertaining in WOT world. 

 

War and combat does not make a series adult on its own. The Hobbit has many such scenes in and is intended to be read by ages ten and up. 

 

It is not necessarily a bad thing. I have reread WOT a number of times more than ASOIAF precisely because it is a more relaxing world to spend time in. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Jaglover

[Zorlon]

14 hours ago, JakeSt4r said:

PG13? Huh? 

 

WoT gets just as brutal, if not more so. Padan Fain on his own gives everyone in ASoIaF a run for their money, and that's not even mentioning half the stuff that the forsaken and shadowspawn do. The difference is ASoIaF ONLY has brutality, whereas WoT balances the brutality with humor, and happy moments. WoT has darkness, sex, and extremely brutal violence, but it doesn't center the entire story around those things like ASoIaF does. 

It is more than that, consider the boy without a sausage, or more to the point how thoroughly his plight was described.

 

We can guess what happened to Moghedian, we were told in detail what happened to Theon.

 

ASoIaF dwells in its brutality, revels in it, while TWoT usually only hints at brutality the way an old person will talk around an ugly topic like mentioning someones infidelity as a woman having "one of those golf husbands". Yeah, you can guess how many years ago I heard that one.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Zorlon

[Carebear Sedai]

8 hours ago, Jaglover said:

It was in a time of peace, but once she reached Taren Ferry then she was outside her own area. It was more the fact that no one particularly thought she was in any danger that was one example of a PG-13 world to me. Just one example really among many of a different mindset pertaining in WOT world. 

 

War and combat does not make a series adult on its own. The Hobbit has many such scenes in and is intended to be read by ages ten and up. 

 

It is not necessarily a bad thing. I have reread WOT a number of times more than ASOIAF precisely because it is a more relaxing world to spend time in. 

 

Even in asoiaf there's at least one comment about pre-war days when the roads were secure enough for maidens to travel through unconcerned, as that's part of the lords/great lords' job. There's no reason for vast, peaceful Andoran land to be so dangerous that Nynaeve wouldn't be able to ride past. Her on horseback is the equivalent of a woman driving through a peaceful country side nowadays. It doesn't take away from the realism or darkness of WoT world.

 

Regardless, it's not just the war or combat that makes WoT fit for a mature audience but rather the thematics of enslavement, psychological as well as physical torture and PTSD that's explored in vivid sense in the way no PG-13 content would touch.  To your point, I have trouble reading certain books (TGH and LoC) because the ordeal Egwene and Rand go through in those is just so horrific and traumatizing.

[Jaglover]

9 minutes ago, Carebear Sedai said:

 

Even in asoiaf there's at least one comment about pre-war days when the roads were secure enough for maidens to travel through unconcerned, as that's part of the lords/great lords' job. There's no reason for vast, peaceful Andoran land to be so dangerous that Nynaeve wouldn't be able to ride past. Her on horseback is the equivalent of a woman driving through a peaceful country side nowadays. It doesn't take away from the realism or darkness of WoT world.

 

Regardless, it's not just the war or combat that makes WoT fit for a mature audience but rather the thematics of enslavement, psychological as well as physical torture and PTSD that's explored in vivid sense in the way no PG-13 content would touch.  To your point, I have trouble reading certain books (TGH and LoC) because the ordeal Egwene and Rand go through in those is just so horrific and traumatizing.

 

There are many things we take for granted that were far more problematic in the past. The maintenance of law and order is one of them. In Georgian times (which is roughly where WOT is based). Cities had a few hundred constables during the day and rather more night watchmen (but still far smaller than police forces of today). Parishes in the countryside had only a couple of unpaid volunteer constables to keep the peace.  Gentleman had to escort their ladies, hence where you get such old traditions we still remember today such as walking a girl home or walking street side of her on the pavement.  With minimal organised law and order such customs were more than just a social nicety.    

 

 

 

[Carebear Sedai]

4 hours ago, Jaglover said:

 

There are many things we take for granted that were far more problematic in the past. The maintenance of law and order is one of them. In Georgian times (which is roughly where WOT is based). Cities had a few hundred constables during the day and rather more night watchmen (but still far smaller than police forces of today). Parishes in the countryside had only a couple of unpaid volunteer constables to keep the peace.  Gentleman had to escort their ladies, hence where you get such old traditions we still remember today such as walking a girl home or walking street side of her on the pavement.  With minimal organised law and order such customs were more than just a social nicety.    

 

 

Sure but walking and riding are entirely different no? I would consider it similar to the difference between walking and driving nowadays, because unfortunately I wouldn't say law and order has solved the dangers (or at least the perceived fear) women face walking alone in deserted areas.  

 

[Jaglover]

10 hours ago, Carebear Sedai said:

 

Sure but walking and riding are entirely different no? I would consider it similar to the difference between walking and driving nowadays, because unfortunately I wouldn't say law and order has solved the dangers (or at least the perceived fear) women face walking alone in deserted areas.  

 

 

Fair enough with riding she could more easily get away. But it is still a vast order of magnitude more risky than a woman driving alone in the countryside now. It is easy to romanticise the past and forget how squalid and brutal it could be. 

[Deadsy]

16 minutes ago, Jaglover said:

Fair enough with riding she could more easily get away. But it is still a vast order of magnitude more risky than a woman driving alone in the countryside now. It is easy to romanticise the past and forget how squalid and brutal it could be. 

 

 

I think you covered that the time period that closely resembles WoT times had violence, but the time period that resembles GoT is even worse.

 

My thoughts on the general topic of rating are that in WoT more of the gory details are glossed over. In GoT we get details of seemingly ever awful thing that happens.

[JakeSt4r]

Here's the thing: ASoIaF focuses only on the bad stuff, there's very little that happens in any of the books that anyone would even consider decent, much less good. In GRRM's story, everybody is a psychotic killer looking for any excuse to kill. Honestly, look at the events of the first book, and find me one scene where someone does anything good that isn't overshadowed by some ulterior motive.

 

WoT has more diversity in that for every killer, you have many normal people just trying to live out their lives in peace. You see the brutality, but you also see the good to balance it.

 

Just a few examples:

 

In TGH, it is described in great detail what Padan Fain did to multiple people and even Myrddraal after escaping Fal Dara... including nailing a Myrddraal to a wall through its eyes and decapitating a guard and painting the walls with his blood.

 

The hunters finding the giant tree filled with the hanging bodies of people that were skinned alive. 

 

The Shaido's treatment of prisoners is described in deep detail when Faile is captured, then being forced to walk naked through the dead of winter for miles on end, with many dropping dead with the rest leaving bloodstained footprints behind them.

 

Asha'man kill. 

 

The Gholam ripping out the throat of Nalesean, and struggling with Mat over top of him as he choked on his own blood. 

 

I could go on and on, but the point is, we don't think about all the brutality that happens throughout the books, because there's more to WoT than just brutality. There's humor, romance, and hope thrown in there to balance out the brutality, and those are the things we remember. Nobody thinks about the battlefields strewn with so much dead that the amount of blood soaking the ground turned it to mud. Nobody remembers Mat's dagger causing a man to melt at the end of TGH. Nobody dwells on these things because in the end, there's so much more to the story than people killing each other. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by JakeSt4r

[Jaglover]

10 minutes ago, JakeSt4r said:

I could go on and on, but the point is, we don't think about all the brutality that happens throughout the books, because there's more to WoT than just brutality. There's humor, romance, and hope thrown in there to balance out the brutality, and those are the things we remember. Nobody thinks about the battlefields strewn with so much dead that the amount of blood soaking the ground turned it to mud. Nobody remembers Mat's dagger causing a man to melt at the end of TGH. Nobody dwells on these things because in the end, there's so much more to the story than people killing each other. 

 

I like this point. The light balancing the dark, yes I can see that and it is part of what makes it still so entertaining on rereads. All of Nyneave's POV chapters in books four through six are gems (looks at casting again and shakes head). 

 

But just to reiterate my earlier point, perhaps I have a stronger stomach, but I rarely find anything disturbing in WOT and added to that, to me, it is more the assumptions and behaviours that make it a more sanitised world suitable for young adults, rather than the events written as such. 

[imlad]

23 hours ago, Zorlon said:

It is more than that, consider the boy without a sausage, or more to the point how thoroughly his plight was described.

 

We can guess what happened to Moghedian, we were told in detail what happened to Theon.

 

ASoIaF dwells in its brutality, revels in it, while TWoT usually only hints at brutality the way an old person will talk around an ugly topic like mentioning someones infidelity as a woman having "one of those golf husbands". Yeah, you can guess how many years ago I heard that one.

 

I honestly don't recall that being described in such horrid detail, at least when you compare it to the detail of Egwene's imprisonment as a damane, or Rand's imprisonment by the Tower Aes Sedai during the whole Box sequence. Maybe it boils down to an altered state of mind I had when reading GRRM's books the multiple times I read them (the only one I haven't read at least twice is aDwD). I just don't recall any excruciatiating detail or anything. We never "saw" it as it happened, we only saw the after effects. Maybe that just lessened the horror for me, I dunno. Perhaps I'm just remembering it wrong (*cough*cannabis*cough*), I admit, I sometimes do have a bit of a smokey foggy memory for some mysterious reason I can't quite place... ?

 

22 hours ago, Carebear Sedai said:

Regardless, it's not just the war or combat that makes WoT fit for a mature audience but rather the thematics of enslavement, psychological as well as physical torture and PTSD that's explored in vivid sense in the way no PG-13 content would touch.  To your point, I have trouble reading certain books (TGH and LoC) because the ordeal Egwene and Rand go through in those is just so horrific and traumatizing.

 

I totally understand your point there, Carebear Sedai. Personally I found Egwene and Rand's experiences just as traumatic, if not moreso, than what nearly any character in aSoIaF went through, except perhaps Theon (not counting what happened to Dany, Cersei or Sansa on the show). And that includes Jaime losing his hand (and he's my favorite character from that series, which is not to say I think he is necessarily a totally good guy, he isn't, but that's complicated and a topic for another place and time).

 

16 hours ago, Carebear Sedai said:

 

Sure but walking and riding are entirely different no? I would consider it similar to the difference between walking and driving nowadays, because unfortunately I wouldn't say law and order has solved the dangers (or at least the perceived fear) women face walking alone in deserted areas.  

 

 

Or for men of small stature like myself. We are perceived as easy targets and are often made so. As someone who is both a survivor of rape and has been jumped and beaten multiple times (twice to the point of having been taken to the hospital), I know what the fear of walking in such areas is like. And to be honest, the rape was less traumatic (granted, I was piss-drunk when it happened so my memory of it is not as clear as my memories of the beatings are), as sad as that may sound to some. 

 

4 hours ago, JakeSt4r said:

Here's the thing: ASoIaF focuses only on the bad stuff, there's very little that happens in any of the books that anyone would even consider decent, much less good. In GRRM's story, everybody is a psychotic killer looking for any excuse to kill. Honestly, look at the events of the first book, and find me one scene where someone does anything good that isn't overshadowed by some ulterior motive.

 

1) Jon Snow defending Samwell Tarly against the other Brothers of the Night's Watch, when he had never met the boy before and had no reason to defend him.

2) Tyrion Lannister befriending Jon Snow at Winterfell during the feast for King Robert (when Jon was in a angry and depressive funk at being left out of the feast because he was a bastard, and was feeling alone and rejected) and along the journey to Castle Black.

3) Tyrion giving the designs for the special saddle for Bran upon his return south from the Wall.

 

You asked for one, is three good enough? And that's just from the top of my head in about 30 seconds of thinking. Give me more time and I could probably find others.

 

(This next statement is not specifically related to JakeSt4r's comment alone, but to many of the comments compareing aSoIaF to WoT)

 

I theorize that much of the way people are viewing the series GRRM wrote nowadays is heavily colored by the characterisation the show gave the story. In my opinion, the show was actually much darker and more brutal than the books, showing much more of the brutality and gore that was hinted at but not specifically described by Martin. Things that were said to happen but not described beat by beat, blow by blow were shown in excruciating detail onscreen in the HBO program for us to see vividly, fixing it in our brains in a way that the text never did. And for those of us who had read the books, I think this fundamentally altered our perception and memories of the books, at an unconscious level, causing us to recall it as more brutally detailed than it really was.

 

Now I could be wrong and just full of Myrddraal poop. It would be interesting to talk to someone who has read the books but never watched the show and find out how they recall the levels of brutality and the detail GRRM went to describe it, and for them to compare it to that in The Wheel of Time.

[agreddon]

On 8/17/2019 at 4:09 PM, imlad said:

 

Nor does Martin's series have anything come anywhere near as brutal, disgusting, and astonishingly horrific as Dumai's Wells. Yes, I mentioned it up above, but it cannot be stressed enough. This battle is the most terrible thing I have ever read descriptions of in fantasy or science fiction in my entire life. That one scene alone would garner the show a TV-MA rating, or if in the cinema an NC-17 rating (formerly an X rating). 

 

You haven't heard that quote from Marilyn Chambers:  "You can stab a breast, but God help you if you kiss one."  R at most.

[DemandredFO]

I think the first season or so could be TV14 if they so desire but after that it's TV-MA, not a solid every episode TV-MA like GoT. Don't forget, there's not a TV-14 way to show someone's throat ripped or having someone disassemble Barthanas, etc.

[KingRodel]

Man, I didn't mean to inspire such an eloquent debate. People are waxing poetic, delving into history, and everything.

 

 

 

[TheSociopath]

As far as comparing aSoiaF, and WoT, someone mentioned being curious on the perspective of a person who hadn't watched the show, but had read the books. 

While I have watched the first season, I haven't watched the rest.

I would say that aSoiaF is grimmer in tone, but not by much. Honestly, the only sex scenes that I can remember lasting any amount of time at all are completely consensual.

 

There is also a lot to be said for how the characters in WoT are always either with an army or are magic. The main exception that we see to this is at the very beginning, when the whole company is traveling across the Taren. And they are worried about the ferryman trying to rob them. 

 

Also, returning to the casting, (based nearly entirely off of the pictures shown) I like Perrin, and was ambivalent at best about the others, although that clip someone posted earlier of Mat's actor improved my estimation of him a lot.

 

In general, I doubt that this adaptation will be good.

[Deadsy]

On 8/19/2019 at 6:53 AM, imlad said:

I honestly don't recall that being described in such horrid detail, at least when you compare it to the detail of Egwene's imprisonment as a damane, or Rand's imprisonment by the Tower Aes Sedai during the whole Box sequence.

 

 

I find it odd that in a conversation about TV rating you bring these up. These would barely be PG-13. We don't *see* Egwene's torture. Rand is fully clothed, just suffering. Rating is usually for visuals, not for tragic horrible crap that isn't gory.

[DemandredFO]

Those particular scenes might not be a hard TV-MA but Dumais Wells definitely is

[SinisterDeath]

6 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

I find it odd that in a conversation about TV rating you bring these up. These would barely be PG-13. We don't *see* Egwene's torture. Rand is fully clothed, just suffering. Rating is usually for visuals, not for tragic horrible crap that isn't gory.

Well.. umm. Perhaps not the torture of Rand, as that can be kept within the PG13 range... but the Battle of Dumai's Wells might be quite gruesome.

[Deadsy]

Just now, SinisterDeath said:

Well.. umm. Perhaps not the torture of Rand, as that can be kept within the PG13 range... but the Battle of Dumai's Wells might be quite gruesome.

 

 

Yes I agree with that.

[JenniferL]

This is the casting thread. Please start a new thread for discussion of potential ratings. Thanks. 

[mactwist2]

I think it outta be mature. I've only read through the first 3 again so far (read all of them in high school over a decade ago) and I feel it needs to be mature. There's no many sex scenes or anything but there's plenty of nudity and violence and I feel both should be in the show. The nudity aspects showcases the innocence of the three rivers folk and the violence is necessary imo and should be shown to the full extent.

[tallan1976]

This was one of my biggest concerns when I first heard there was going to be a movie or series made from the books.  Robert Jordan does a good job of painting the picture in some of the more violent parts of the story.  There are a lot of fights, skirmishes and a few wars that will need to be brought to the screen and I, for one, would rather those scenes be more of the GoT type and less of the Shannara type (if  you watched that on MTV).  There doesn't have to be extensive nudity or sex scenes but the fight/war scenes should be more graphic and realistic. I am hoping for a TV-MA rating so that the content is more accurate and believable.  And it's not like parents now days have much control over or give a crap about their teens watching something TV-MA.  Most of my friend's kids watched GoT.  Maybe not with their parents but they watched them. Not like it used to be back in the 90's when these books were first released.  If it is done poorly, bad score, so-so CGI, mediocre cinematography (again, Shannara-like) it will be a disappointment to most.  

Edited December 6, 2019 by SinisterDeath
Removed Off-topic casting discussion

[tallan1976]

On 8/20/2019 at 5:48 PM, JenniferL said:

This is the casting thread. Please start a new thread for discussion of potential ratings. Thanks. 

 

Isn't this the MPAA thread? That is what it says at the top....  

[imlad]

4 hours ago, tallan1976 said:

 

Isn't this the MPAA thread? That is what it says at the top....  

 

 

Things got moved around at one point, this thread was spun off from the casting thread.